Talk:Šarplaninac/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Pictures

If, when the article is expanded, more pictures are needed, they are available at bg:Картинка:Sharplaninec 2.jpg and bg:Картинка:Sharplaninec 3.jpg. Same licence info as Image:Sharplaninec 1.jpg. Nikola 14:32, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I don't have any side views of the Sarplaninac, but I do have a frontal one if you guys don't mind. --Plxstic Orgasms 00:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I resized my browser back and forth and reduced font size and whatever, and I can't seem to find a combination where the box isn't >50% of the width. That's just wrong... --Joy [shallot] 21:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's odd. Is it only this page or is it all the pages for all dogs in List of dog breeds? Because all the ones with illustrations are the same width. Elf | Talk 22:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They're all generally rather wide, but this one is particularly wide because of the bottom notes. --Joy [shallot] 22:35, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, instead of BRs, I made the table a fixed width. Does that help? (You must be using a large font size--I'm using the default configuration so that I can see what other people see when they first look at Wiki, and the SMALL makes the font so small that I can't really read it--e.g., in your signature, at first glance I see charcters of the greek alphabet, which I thought was intneresting, but now that I know it's english, on the display it looks like maybe shallx or maybe smlb. But I see you've got double-smalls.) Elf | Talk 22:53, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Geography

(Now that I have a map in front of me, Sar mountain actually doesn't extend outside of the province; but I'd prefer current wording as other two mentioned entities are countries). Nikola 09:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Addition about Yugoslavian/Kosovo name changes

(Moved following off the article page:)

Note: The Dog belongs to Illyrium population today known as Albanians but since Kosovo was under the Yugoslavian goverment they used this and they registered as their dog and changed the name Sarplaninac or Yugoslavian shepherd dog. The true is different the dog belonged to Albanian and will continue so. In Albanian language is called wether Qen i Sharit or Qen Ilir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.68.74 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC) - diff.

I'm having a little trouble understanding all of this. My attempt at rewriting would look something like this: "The people living in the area where the breed originated are now known as Illyrian or Albanian. Because this area, Kosovo, was part of Yugoslavia when the breed name was formally recognized, they called it the Sarplaninac or Yugoslavian shepherd dog. (??However, there's another breed of dog that is still found in Albania that is called by a different name (in English??); in Albanian that other dog is called Qen i Sharit or Qen Ilir.)?? But you can see that I'm really struggling with whether this is correct. And it's not at all clear to me where the change to "Kosovo Shepherd Dog" comes in. Elf | Talk 20:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You are having problems understanding it because it is nationalist nonsense. By the formation of the Holy Roman Empire, Byzantium and Ottoman incursions, the entire Illyrian population had been absorbed and interbred into the populations inhabiting the current countries of Croatia, Italia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Romania etc. To say that only Albanians are the direct descendants of Illyrians is a borderline brain dead statement since "Illyrium" is a Roman word used to describe the lands directly across the Adriatic and any people living there. This dog is a breed likely related to shepherd dogs from the northwest direction of the current Sar mountains, these breeds were brought in by migrating Slavs, Saxon businessmen etc. 99.236.220.155 (talk) 20:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

This breed of dog is not brought by migrating slavs,as there are facts and legends that show that this breed has been existing since the time of Great Alexander and earlier. For example there is a legend which says : " The Illyrian King, Bradhyl, sent The Great Alexander two Illyrian dogs as a gift. To prove their bravery Alexander put the two dogs to fight with a bear, but dogs hesitated to fight so Alexander ordered to kill the dogs. After that Illyrian king Bardhyl sent him 2 other dogs and a note saying ' Do not bother the dogs with small things', so Alexander put them to fight with a lion and they torned the lion apart".EG22 (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

To User 82.114.68.74

I'd like to mention that the controversy surrounding the Illyrian = Albanian controversy isn't 100% reinstated. Kosovo, for as far as I understand, has been considered a distinct "province" or republic more or less of Serbia.

Furthermore, I do not understand your point in saying that the name was changed to "Šarplaninac" or "Yugoslavian shepherd dog". As far as I know, Šar planina is mainly located in the regions of Macedonia and Kosovo, followed by Mount Korab which is located as a boundary and extension into Albania. So, because of that, there is a truth in saying that the dog does lie in the major Šar region of Macedonia, followed by Kosovo. Therefore, the indigenous people of Macedonia must have had it in their region as well. Do you comprehend?

--Plxstic Orgasms 00:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Slavs and serbs came to balkans like 300 years ago or something. They were russians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plattner19 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

That's pretty ignorant Plattner, considering they have been fighting Islam in the area for 700 years. Sorbs were led by the Unknown Archont to the Balkans 610-641 anno domini, previously their kinngdom resided west of present day Germany since before Roman exploration in the region. Interestingly, Albanians come from east Anatolia during the Ottoman conquests... 99.236.220.155 (talk) 11:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Albanians dont come from Turkey, Southern Albanians are mixed with Vlach, Turkic, etc. but Northern Albania, Montenegro, and Western Macedonia are still Illyrian. And even if this dog did originate from Sar mountains (not saying it didnt) but do your history, before World war I, Albania expanded through Southern Montenegro, Kosovo, a little Serbia, Northwest Greece, and western Macedonia then Yugoslavia conquered all of it. So I think it would be fair to put the country of origin as Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia and Albania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.51.214 (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Duplicate article

There appears to be a duplicate article about this dog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharplaninac Edrigu 19:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In the last days this article has been moved (and even copy-&-pasted) to "Sarplaninac(Ilyrian Shepherd)", "Sharr Mountain Dog" and "Sharplaninac" -all without any discussion whatsoever- to the point of creating the duplicate mentioned by Edrigu.

I requested that the article be moved back to "Šarplaninac", and Anthony Appleyard has been kind enough to do it, for which I thank him.

Now, if anybody thinks that the current title is inappropriate, or that another one would be better, please discuss the issue in this talk page first, try to establish a consensus for a new name among the article's aditors, or at the very least follow the proper move request procedures. Please recognize that the issue is potentially controversial.

Keep in mind that the article's title should follow our general naming conventions and the specific ones for fauna. - Best regards, Ev 07:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Dobermannp, please don't create duplicate articles as you did with "Ilyrian Shepherd‎". If you haven't done so yet, read carefully what a content fork is. - Best regards, Ev 17:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

About country of origin

FCI recognizes the breed to be from Serbia and Macedonia so it is incorrect to put Kosovo as country of origin,especially since kosovo is not member of FCI —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbon (talk • contribs) 19:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there any Wikipedia guideline indicating that our articles on dog breeds should follow the details mentioned in the breeds nomenclature of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI), instead of any other parameters (such as the world's current political situation) ?

The "Parameters" section of the "Infobox Dog breed" template mentions:

"country: Country of origin, preferably at time of origin to avoid squabbling over current political boundaries.

Also available on the spreadsheet (or see breed's FCI listing - but be aware that the country listed may be the country responsible for the standard and not the true country of origin)."

But, what exactly does "time of origin" mean for our case ? Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Ottoman Empire ? - Regards, Ev (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the wikipedia standard is WP:PROVEIT. Where's the actual data? Is there archeological or genetic evidence that today's purebred dog is related to the dogs of some earlier people of the area? Is there good written evidence describing, if not the exact ancestors of today's breed, a dog of similar type found in the Ottoman Empire or wandering around with the Illyrians (who are described by wikipedia as " ill-defined")? If so put it in, if not, leave it out. --Hafwyn (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Could the Moderator please correct the source from 1308, original text mentions Albanians, not Illyrians. Let's not politicize an historical document. The document mentions Albanians not Illyrians, let it be as it is--Newhost19 (talk) 12:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

That text from Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis DOESN`T say that that dogs are from breed in this article! That is only some dog, do not insert unsourced material! Tadija (talk) 16:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

What is so hard to understand! Whoever edited the page substituted Albanians for Illyrians. It`s not hard, the text from 1308 speaks of Albanians and their dogs and NOT OF ILLYRIANS AND THEIR DOGS. Somebody, not hard to find out who did it, replaced "Albanians" with Illyrians. Not hard, right ?! Come on, it`s so easy to check who did this and why. Look at the historical editing for the history of the dog, you will see how it was changed from Albanians to Illyrians. --Newhost19 (talk) 18:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

To mention that 14th-century text in the article we would require a reliable source directly making the claim that those "dogs [...] of a huge size" mentioned in that Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis are the Šarplaninac or their ancestors. Otherwise, it's considered original research, and it can't be included. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Origin

The dog originates from Yugoslavia,[1] not Serbia, not Albania, and not Macedonia. Its called the Yugoslavian Shepherd Dog for a reason. PRODUCER ^(TALK) 02:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

See the discussion immediately above (About country of origin), especially the comments by Hafwyn. For the moment, and until someone brings forth reliable sources describing the breed's origins, we're using Yugoslavia. — Note that both the Official U.K.C. Breed Standard & the Official FCI-Standard N° 41 mention plain "Yugoslavia", not the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; and at the time the breed was recognized by the FCI (in 1939), it was the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Therefore, I have edited the mentions of "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" into plain "Yugoslavia" to cover the entire period, and to function as a general geographical description instead of a clear mention of a specific state. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

But both sources (,fci.be The Fédération Cynologique Internationale, Official FCI-Standard N° 41) say Serbia and Macedonia. Also, Yugoslavia does not exist any more, so it is a bit pointless to write like that. Also, we can place like this (Kingdom of Yugoslavia, now Serbia and Republic of Macedonia). Past and present. :) Tadija (talk) 13:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

SARPLANINAC IS ILYRIAN SHEPHERD AND ITS FROM KOSOVO FROM SHARR MOUNTIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.80.161.147 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Patronat: Macedonia & Serbia not Albania or Kosovo

See hire: [2].--User1389 (talk) 19:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

- Tells nothing, we are talkin here about the dog origin and there is no Serbia in the sar mouintains

so please do not engage edit wars, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illyriandescendant (talk • contribs) 12:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

See hire: [3].--User1389 (talk) 19:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no standard of breed which says that the country of origin is Kosovo,only Serbia.

If this is the article about the dog breed then its source is the dog breed standard and it says Serbia and Macedonia,not Kosovo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbon (talk • contribs) 12:31, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

it's a sort of bullshit link --Vinie007 (talk) 18:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Warning: edit warring

Please use the talk page to discuss your differences. There appears to be a slow motion edit war going on, with no attempt to discuss. This must stop and will be stopped William M. Connolley (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

See also discussion at Talk:Šar Mountains#Serbia and Kosovo and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Serbia#Kosovo geographic articles introduction. Nikola (talk) 06:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

First Sar Mountains are in Kosovo, Second Sar Dog is also Kosovan dog so why? remove Albanian language and Kosovo related facts...

Please do not involve politics with everything beacuse I know you Nikola, but please keep in mind that Kosovo is independent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illyriandescendant (talk • contribs) 10:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. Kosovo is not independent. Even if it would be, Šar existed before Kosovo's independence. Nikola (talk) 21:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to refight the Kosovo-Serbia wars [4] [5]. Although I don't know what or where it is, there must be an agreed compromise on this somewhere on a policy page... anyone know? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm coming up empty on policy pages except for things like WP:FANATIC. I did find an old Arb case dealing with Kosovo, with remedies intended to be broadly interpreted as applied to everything Kosovo-related. There are also WikiProjects for Serbia and Kosovo, for what that's worth. And, of course, the Ethnic/Cultural conflict noticeboard. All of which strike me as just other places to send this page's editors to yell at each other there instead of here. I'll keep digging... keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 18:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Serbia#Kosovo geographic articles introduction looks to be a start, as is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kosovo#Šar Mountain. So both "sides" are aware of the problem, though perhaps not of each other William M. Connolley (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

see www.fci.be/Sarplaninac--User1389 (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

See comments on the infobox at the "About country of origin" section above. - Ev (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

As a note, I've fully protected the page for two weeks, and I am prepared to extend the protection further if the parties involved in the extensive edit war can come to a consensus on where this breed of dog originates from. This tit-for-tat has gone on for long enough. See Wikipedia:Protection policy#Full protection for more information. seicer | talk | contribs 02:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"Šarplaninec", not "Šarplaninac"

Firstly, the name is Šarplaninec and not Šarplaninac, because Šar-planina is located in the Republic of Macedonia, and not in Serbia. Šarplaninac is a Serbian modality of the name, while Šarplaninec is Macedonian. Thus, I believe this text should be put under the right name.

Secondly, Šar-planina is located within the Republic of Macedonia. It was located within the Socialistic Federative Republic of Macedonia in the SFRY. I don't get how can this dog be of purely Serbian origin (as some argue here, in this talk page) while the main territory from where it comes is in Macedonia?! Or, Albanian origin, my universe, are you nuts, albanians? Do you constantly have to put your fingers on places they're not meant to be? This dog has nothing to do with Albanians or Ilyrians. Stay away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.58.150 (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your first concern (the name), the names used in Wikipedia articles are decided in accordance to our naming conventions. They do not stipulate that we should use a local name (be it Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Albanian or Swedish). Instead, they ask us to adopt the name commonly used in English-language publications (the one the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize). – Both the United Kennel Club & the Fédération Cynologique Internationale use "Šarplaninac" (see the references listed in the article). Can you show evidence indicating that "Šarplaninec", and not "Šarplaninac", is not the name widely used in English-language publications ?

Regarding your second concern (the breed's origin), please see the section "About country of origin" above, on this same talk page. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I've created a redirect from Šarplaninec to Šarplaninac. The issues with the name can be further presented in the article, under the provision that they're adequately supported by reliable sources. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian Shepherd Dog: separate article?

How much sense would it make to create a separate article on the Illyrian Shepherd Dog (currently a redirect here)? I mean, as far as I can understand from the Karst Shepherd article, this was not only the old name for Šarplaninac, but encompassed both the Šarplaninac and the Karst Shepherd. Regards, --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Albanians Stop reverting edits!

There are some very non-neutral Albanians/kosovars who keep claiming it is their dog. I have reported 3 people for this. The Wikipedia article is the Sar mountains not Sharr as someone called it so stop this edit war and get along with making constructive edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KAPITALIST88 (talk • contribs) 11:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit war in November

Folks, the correct place to discuss the article is here, not in multiple reversions and edits to undo other's edits. Edit warring on the article is harmful and may result in sanctions, starting with the warring parties looking silly. Please stop now and bring the matter to this page. - Peripitus (Talk) 12:14, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Anyone have any idea how to remove "Illyrian shepherd dog" above the infobox until there is a consensus? To my knowledge there is no such thing as Illyria and all sources point to "Yugoslav shepherd dog" 99.236.221.124 (talk) 11:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Illyrian Shepherd

Just had to reverse a badly done move to Illyrian Shepherd where an IP user had simply cut and paste the entire text of the article and changed this one to a redirect there.

The standard naming procedure for dog breed related articles is the common use name in use on the international standards. This is why we have both an English Cocker Spaniel and an American Cocker Spaniel - neither of them use simply Cocker Spaniel as the rest of the world does not use that name for them. Šarplaninac is the name is use in these standards, and this is where this article should be located. Miyagawa (talk) 12:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a recurring issue (see the "Duplicate article" section above). - Best, Ev (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Illyrian Sheepdog

I have reverted the undiscussed page move to "Illyrian Sheepdog" done by Vinie007. Notice that the references used in the article use the name "Šarplaninac" (or a similar form). — If you want to propose a new title for this article, please, discuss it in this talk page first, and gain consensus for it (see Wikipedia:Article titles & Wikipedia:Requested moves). - Best, Ev (talk) 15:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok here u got a list:

• [6]
• [7]
• [8]

I Will change title back because Illyrian sheepdog is good name! --Vinie007 (talk) 18:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Your first two links are blogs. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper) mentions that "blogs [...] are largely not acceptable [as sources for Wikipedia articles]." Your third link (NextDayPets.com) is basically a pet shop. Not one of those links mentions the source of the information they provide. — Please, take the time to read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources.

The name currently used in this article ("Šarplaninac") is based in the ones under which this breed is listed by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (Group 2, Molossoid breeds: "Yugoslavian Shepherd Dog-Sharplanina") and the United Kennel Club (Sarplaninac).

If someone thinks that this article should be re-named to "Illyrian sheepdog" (or anything else), that person should explain in this talk page why "Illyrian sheepdog" is a better title (namely, why our policy on article titles would favour "Illyrian sheepdog" over "Šarplaninac"), and gain consensus for the move before actually moving the article. — Because this issue has proven to be controversial, I would advice to file a proper move request, to publicise the discussion and give it a more formal format (I can help you with the details).

Please, do not move this article again without first obtaining some degree of consensus to do so. - Best, Ev (talk) 20:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not Serbia's Wiki, it is English wiki. It original name is Illyrian Sheepdog, and not Šarplaninac. If you name it the Serbs name, you not holding to Wikipedia's neutral position! --Vinie007 (talk) 14:57, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

This name IS international. Also, i removed failed sources, per Ev explanation above. --Tadija^taking 19:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Illyrian Sheepdog

I think that the article should have the title Illyrian Sheepdog and Šarplaninac should be a redirecting page. -- Euriditi (talk) 13:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

See the section above. Miyagawa (talk) 16:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Coat and Colour

Section "Appearance", subsection "Coat": the first three sentences deal with the actual coat. Everything after that is about colour. I ask that the "Colour" section be edited to:

All Šarplaninac are solid in colour: fawn, iron grey, white or almost black; usually sable or gray with darker "overalls" on the head and back, the undercoat being paler. The colour need not be completely uniform, and most Šarplaninac have several different shades of the same colour fading into one another. There are no bicolours and no uniformly black-coated dogs among purebreds, but odd-coloured specimens do exist. The dogs must not have large white patches in their coat.

and with the "Coat" section abbreviated to just the current first three sentences. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 16:10, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done. I also reworded the "coat" section into a single sentence. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 01:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Where is this information coming from? Chrisrus (talk) 03:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I haven't vouched for the accuracy of the edit; very little new information was added (darker "overalls" and pale undercoat) so the edit request looked like a reasonable request to organize existing content. As an autoconfirmed user, you can edit the page yourself—since it's unreferenced, you can even remove the whole section if you want per WP:BURDEN. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 04:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know, and I've got half a mind to do it, too, unless you guys can come up with some decent citations or at least some kind of explanation where all this is coming from maybe I will. Either that or I'll just make up my own stuff about this dog and add that to the article. I'll have them ripping out the throats of giant bears and stuff. Chrisrus (talk) 05:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Why would you want to do that? Just take the info out if you think it's wrong. Or mark dubious claims with {{fact}}. There's no "you guys" here; I'm as much on your side as the IP who made the edit request. I'm not defending the content in question—it could very well be wrong. If you have reason to think it is, then you are welcome, in fact, encouraged, to remove it. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 06:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Feezo, thank you for your kindness and helpfulness. It turns out, however, that I'm not really talking to you but to the contributors to this article.

To the contributors to this article, please, if I may, my original question again, where are you getting all this information? Chrisrus (talk) 13:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I also was not advocating the information in the article, just trying to fix the formatting as Feezo said. Chrisrus, you would be better served by tagging the section(s) as in need of citation - {{unreferenced section}} would work. Several people follow the article, and are more likely to check edits to it rather than the talk page. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 15:59, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't personally necessarily need a WP:RS citation. Someone might just want to reply to my question with something that makes me think they know what they're talking about. And as far as I know, if an article is on a watchlist, so is its discussion page. Chrisrus (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Here' one that seems to verify this info: [9] Anna ^talk 19:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Anna! Chrisrus (talk) 15:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Albanian or Serbian Spelling of the name?

This is an albanian dog. It is found within the albanian area and not in Serbia. It's real name is Illyrian Shepherd or the Sharr Dog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.94.0 (talk) 23:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, "Shar dog" means "dog from the Shar Mountains" and the Shar Mountains are on the Serbian/Macedonian side of the border, but anyway...

I think we should make a test once and for all. We put the dog in the middle of a basket field, and we put an Albanian person under one basket, and a mixed Serbo-Macedonian (Serbian father, Macedonian mother, or vice-versa) under the oposite basket, and in an exact time both sides start calling the dog in their respective language. If the dog comes to the Albanian guy, we name the dog Albanian, but if the dog comes to the Serbo-Macedonian gut, we name it Serbo-Macedonian. However, if the dog stays in the middle, we sell the dog and split the monney, sound ok? FkpCascais (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Good idea! <snark> Then we set up a bot to rotate the two spellings every 24 hours or some such. Chrisrus (talk) 15:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 December 2011

Regarding to the Illyrian Shepherd for Serbians language "Šarplaninac" this article with description that the dog belongs the ex Yugoslavia and Macedonia. The truth is that the root of the dog are in the south side of Kosovo and western side of Macedonia and the name Yugoslavian dog it's not real name, because the Yugoslavia does not exist this day and was artificially republic with with state members: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia. So the term Yugoslavian dog it's not the real name, the name "Šarplaninac" was taken from Yugoslavian Republic till the 1990 because both Kosovo and Macedonia was the member of that Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and at international opinion it was represented with the name "Šarplaninac"

The real name of Illyrian Shepherd dog in Albanina is "Qeni i Sharrit" and in Macedonian "Šarplaninec" or in Cyrillic Шарпланинец

Gjingiz (talk) 20:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

He is registered in the FCI (worldwide ruling cannine organisation) as being a bread of Serbia and Macedonia (not Yugoslavia as you claim). FkpCascais (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Albanian (Shqip) version of the article is false

I've noticed that Shquip version of the Šarplaninac article is a case of (probably deliberate) mislabeling of the breed. The Albanian version is about "Deltari Ilir", not Šarplaninac. Kosovo Albanians have been trying to authenticate and standardize their own breed of shepherd dog - Deltari Ilir, which proved to be controversial since they have a hard time proving the type is different enough from Šarplaninac. But anyway, should they succeed, DI will be an entirely separate breed, and right now it is treated as such by cynology club(s) of Kosovo. This subject is discussed in greater detail in this DI Molosserworld article, and quite neutrally so.

This means that calling Šarplaninac "Deltari Ilir" in Shquip version is - a pure lie. This might be misleading on purpose, since a lot of Albanians believe that Šarplaninac is actually their breed of dog - a claim supported neither by history, nor by worldwide cynological authorities.

I don't know what should be done about the Deltari Ilir article, since it contains false information, but any links to Šarplaninac article should definitely be removed. Gugusaurus (talk • contribs) 00:42, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 May 2012

Please change the title of the artcile from "sarplaninac" to "Illyrian Sheepdog", since this is the first true name of the breed and this is how the dog is widely known (Fédération Cynologique Internationale, 1920). In additon, it is misleading that the dog is related with serbia and macedonia, since the breed has originated in the mountains of sar or sharre in present North Albania and South Kosovo, where it is still present. This article contains serbian nationalist propaganda, given the claims that Serbia has over the region where the dog is present. Please consider correcting the article as soon as posible, since the publishment of propaganda with no scientific or proven sources can harm seriously the image and the trustworthiness of wikipedia Leob22 (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 22:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Despite this edit request not being considered, I will point out a few mistakes in the argumentation of the edit request proponent. First of all, that is not the "first true name of the breed" and even if it was, what matters is how the breed is named in preferably more recent specialised publications. The user should also bring here the source he claims and wants to use, namely, the Fédération Cynologique Internationale, 1920. Second, there is also the issue of geographical location of the Šar Mountains, and it is not adequate to misslead, as the user did by excluding Macedonia as its location, not to mention the fact that Kosovo is still regarded as part of Serbia by the majority of UN member states, but anyway. And finaly, and most important, the article cites numerous sources which confirm Sarplaninac as the breed name and confirm Macedonia and Serbia as the breed origin, the most important being the current FCI - Fédération Cynologique Internationale.

So basicaly the user should bring sources and perhaps he should get familiarised with WP:AGF before making the type of claims which he did. Also worth notece is the strage inability of this user to correctly write English language when the matter seems to be Serbia and Macedonia, as he seems to think that despite knowing that country names are written in capital letters (he writes correctly Albania and Kosovo), Macedonia and Serbia for some reason don´t deserve to be writen with capital letters... So, was this user refering to nationalist propaganda and trustworthiness? Cheers. FkpCascais (talk) 22:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Size: Edit Request

Would the author please insert a minor change to the Size section? Where it reads: "Although much larger dogs do exist which can reach up to 80 kg - most of these "giants" are probably of mixed breed origins and probably not pure." This is misleading and gives the impression that other giant breeds are not purebred. By inserting the name "Sarplaninac" before the word "dogs" would fix this. 60.234.229.163 (talk) 21:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Links

There are quite a few links from the FCI which, when clicked on, seem to no longer exist or lead to nothing. For example, under the Classifications and standards section, the link called 'standard' under FCI leads to a 404. Can someone fix this link? Dirifer (talk) 18:17, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done --WhiteWriter^speaks 15:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I see you have fixed on link regarding the UKC, but the one for FCI under classifications and standards still gives me a 404 page. Dirifer (talk) 20:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I didnt saw that one... :)  Done --WhiteWriter^speaks 21:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Serbian propaganda...

" BREF APERCU HISTORIQUE : Le Chien de Berger Yougoslave de Charplanina est élevé depuis les temps immémoriaux dans les régions montagneuses du Sud-Est de la Yougoslavie. Ce chien était le plus répandu dans la montagne de Charplanina, ce qui lui a valu son nom de Charplaninatz. Aujourd’hui pourtant ce chien est élevé sur le territoire entier de la Yougoslavie. Cette race est enregistrée auprès de la F.C.I. depuis 1939 sous le numéro 41 et sous le nom suivant : Ilirski Ovcar (Chien de Berger d’Illyrie). En 1957, à la demande de la Fédération Cynologique Yougoslave, l’Assemblée Générale de la F.C.I. a autorisé que le nom de « Chien de Berger d’Illyrie » soit changé en « Chien de Berger Yougoslave de Charplanina ». FCI - Chien de berger Youglosave ".

For those who don't speak french, it says that the Charplanina is used for centuries in the moutains in the south-east of Yougoslavia. Well, Yougoslavia is dead for decades now. The mountains of Shar are inhabited by Albanians, and it always been like that. They are no Macedonians, or Serbs in these moutains (see this map : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albanians_in_macedonia2002_03.png. Don't lie to other people, and to yourself. And yes, the original name of this breed is " Illyrian Shepard ". The serb propaganda changed the name just to pretend that these dogs are from Serbia.

Sorry for my english, i'm from Belgium,

KG.

If you want to include information about 'Serbian propaganda', you need to learn to write your info in a non-biased way, and also find reliable sources to support what you are saying. Dirifer (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Serbia

Per sources presented in article, and still located in this talk page, Serbia should and must be presented in this article. REÇ, do you actually have any argument you wish to discuss? --WhiteWriter^speaks 19:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The name Sarplaninac is pronounced "shar-pla-nee-natz." It originates from the southwest part of Srbija (southern Kosovo) and the northwest part of Macedonia (Shar Planina, Bistra, Korab, Stogavo, Mavrovo, Jablanica and Pelister, etc.). Also, this poor site is NOT reliable source to be used, as you may see from the main page... We have relevant sources already. If you find a source that use ALBANIA as country where dog ORIGINATED, instead of "CAN BE FOUND THERE ALSO", we may speak about this more. --WhiteWriter^speaks 20:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Whitewriter made this edit which removed the working source and left only a dead link, whilst deliberately removing content which had been supported by that source; but worse, the edit summary was "do not misrepresent sources". Whitewriter, do you understand that your edit was the opposite of what your edit summary said? Why do you keep on doing this?

I then reinserted the source and tried to fix the content to reflect what the source says. Whitewriter reverted again with the nonsensical edit summary "Country of origin!! Do not vandalise bob". This is frustrating; countries are discussed in the source that WhiteWriter removed, and of course it's not vandalism.

It is difficult to understand why any competent good-faith editor would behave like this. bobrayner (talk) 02:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Your way of talk page decorum is shameful. You misrepresented the source, which clearly DIDNT said that Albania is the country of origin. It said :" this reserved guardian exists in sustainable numbers in Albania and Macedonia". This means that it is NOT originated from there, but only exist there. Also, i didnt even saw that ref is now dead link, and you didn't even address that, in order to push your agenda about Albania. Unfortunately, it is obvious who is editor with bad faith here. "Dog Breed Info Center® is your one-stop shop for dog information." as we can see on their website, not even a legitimate reference. http://www.fci.be/ is THE ultimate source for dogs here, same as UNESCO for monuments. Why did you added Albania, as it was NEVER mention as country of origin by source presented with? --WhiteWriter^speaks 08:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The article should mention that the dog lives in Kosovo and Albania. Also, it should be mentioned that the dog originates from Kosovo, which the source calls 'south west part of srbija'. Also, can you please provide me with a source which explains the country of origin, as you seem to think that the source I found is unreliable. The two sources from the article (FCI) don't have information about the article. Dirifer (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, article can and should mention where dog lives. But infobox under "Country of origin" shouldn't. Click letter S and click "Sarplaninac". Point 7. Serbia/Macedonia - Jugoslovenski Ovcarski Pas - Sarplaninac (41) (Yugoslavian Shepherd Dog-Sharplanina). Click on languages to get this info... Each source mention only Serbia and Macedonia, or Southern Yugoslavia. Also, it could not originated from Kosovo, as Kosovo was not independent in any way then... Bob, will you respond, or again abandon discussion after you fail to push your POV? --WhiteWriter^speaks 15:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, I know the dog doesn't originate in Albania. Can you edit the page so that it includes that the dog is found in northern Albania? Regarding Kosovo, you just said that the dog originates from 'Southern Yugoslavia'. If you look carefully, Southern Yugoslavia refers to the Sharr mountains in Kosovo and north-west Macedonia. Regarding the independence of Kosovo; at that time, Serbia and Macedonia also were not independent, instead they were part of Yugoslavia. When I say that the dog also originated from Kosovo, I am not referring to the current de jure, partially recognised republic, but instead I am talking about the geographical region of Kosovo. The dog comes from the region of Kosovo and the region of Macedonia/ SR Macedonia. If sources say the dog also comes from Serbia, then it would be talking about SR Serbia. At that time, the region of Kosovo was included under SR Serbia, so I understand why you are saying the dog doesn't come from Kosovo, but instead comes from Southern Serbia; at the time, Southern Serbia and Kosovo were the same thing. I think it would be appropriate to write in this article that the dog also originates in Kosovo. Dirifer (talk) 09:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I changed the article for it to include that the dog also originated from Kosovo, and continues to be found in Albania. Dirifer (talk) 10:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

SHARPLANINEC breed is one and only, nobody can change that by his taste and choice!

The official breed STANDARD explains all, nobody is more competent or relevant for this breed than it's National club or organisation. I will just post you an official breed STANDARD published by FCI : (http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/041g02-en.pdf). And this is the link to Breed's National club - Macedonian club -"Sharplaninec": (https://www.facebook.com/groups/makedonskiklub.sharplaninec/) . I will ask the admin's to take notice of this FACT's, and make the needed changes to their articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.21.8 (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yes we can ask an admin or two to look into it. Drmies, Dennis Brown, Kelapstick ? Hafspajen (talk) 21:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this about the FCI recognized breed?

This should be an article about the officially recognized modern dog breed called “Jugoslovenski ovčarski pas Šarplaninac” (English translation of the name: Yugoslavian Shepherd Dog Sharplanina). That breed is developed from the dogs from the region of Šar Mountains. But this is a modern breed that developed over the period of 80 years. It has a breed standard, a list of attributes that standardises the appearance of the breed, written by the former Yugoslavian Federation of Cynology, and internationally recognized and protected by the FCI. Only purebred dogs (registered with the kennel club) are members of this breed. The breed registry does not accept any outside blood.

A modern Šarplaninac is slightly different from mountain dogs you can find at the region of Šar Mountains. It is much bigger, shorter, with longer, iron-grey hair. Check for example http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/sharplaninac/dog.html?id=2143126-lej-jr-sp-70978-so. Note the uniform - Šarplaninac was used as a guard dog in former Yugoslav army. It was popular in all areas of former Yugoslavia. In fact, some famous dog-show champions were from Croatia.

So, if we talk about Šarplaninac in Albania - please document that with registry certificates from the kennel clubs recognized by the FCI. Illyrian Shepherd Dog was not just an alternative name for Šarplaninac, but a common name for 2 different breeds, Šarplaninac and Kraški ovčar. I believe there are similar dogs in Albania, they may be called Deltari Ilir (llyrian Dog) - but there are not members of this modern dog breed. A new article about llyrian Dog can be created. --N Jordan (talk) 06:10, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Some pictures of military dogs in Yugoslavia: http://s991.photobucket.com/user/medusa983/media/Picture002.jpg.html (Serbia & Montenegro), http://s377.photobucket.com/user/sosara/media/serbianarmyshars.jpg.html (Kingdom Yugoslavia), http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6403/slika68vert.jpg, http://s377.photobucket.com/user/sosara/media/IMG_0183-1.jpg.html, http://www.belbugar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/šarko-jna.jpg. They had very intensive breeding program and influence on development of breed standard. Until 1968, it was allowed to use type B dogs (Kraški ovčar), and some of them were used to improve type A.--N Jordan (talk) 06:56, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Infobox

The official name of the breed in English is Yugoslavian Shepherd Dog - Sharplanina. It is too long and I don't mind listing that under alternative names, as long we indicate that is actually the official name of the breed. I added old name (Illyrian Shepherd Dog) - but Sharplaninac was just one of two types of that breed. Not sure what to do with "Illyrian Sheepdog" - that was simply an error in Pugnetti's book. Sharplaninac is a purebred dog and the picture inside the infobox should reflect this. Im not sure if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šarplaninac#mediaviewer/File:Sardog.jpg is a registered purebred dog - but for sure it is not a typical representative of the modern breed. New picture is a purebred dog. --N Jordan (talk) 08:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Silly discussions about countries

It's silly that there is so much discussion about the country where the dog comes from. It apparently comes from the central balkans, and can be found in albania, serbia, kosovo and macedonia. Don' you think you should clean up the article instead of fighting again over a very sad past?! drop it! you certainly do not want it to repeat itself!

your dog is much more beautiful than you all, and belongs to the nature. not to a country. just like you do.

Šarplaninac and Deltari Ilir are two separate breeds?

By reading this source it seems that Šarplaninac and Deltari Ilir are two related but separate breeds. The source says that the Deltari Ilir is

"established through matings between Albanian Cattledogs and Albanian Sheepdogs with the existing Sarplaninec population, but maintained as a separate breed for many decades from all other local types by the ethnic Albanian residents of Kosovo"

The source later says

"These large, strong reddish-brown dogs with white chests, legs and muzzles could still be encountered in Kosovo until the mid-1990's, but there aren't many left today, due to the assimilation in the new creation commonly referred to as the Deltari Ilir, better known as the Albanian Sharplaninatz."

The article actually explains very well the entire situation regarding the dispute, the breeds, and what Albanian side pretends, quite well. So, if any other editors don't oppose, I beleave that the content related to the Deltari Ilir should be generally removed from this article leaving just the sourced content which relates the Deltari Ilir with Šarplaninac, and perhaps a separate Deltari Ilir article should be created. FkpCascais (talk) 05:06, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

That is very interesting article, but nothing new. Modern Sharplaninac originated from that area (Sharr Mountains), but it is result of almost 100 years of selective breeding. (Yugoslavian Federation of Cynology was established in 1920s and Sharplaninac was one of first projects.) Until 1968, Karst Shepherd and Sharplaninac were considered the same breed (2 types), and they were mixed. Some other breeds are used in order to improve the breed. (One of them was Newfoundland.) In Yugoslavia,the Yugoslav People’s Army played a key role in the breeding of Sharplaninec dogs. They had money, facilities and highly trained professionals. In their center in Nis they bred more puppies than all breeders and shepherds in Yugoslavia together.

Modern Sharplaninac is simply different dog. For example, desired iron grey color that is dominant today came from Krast Shepherd. It was extremely rare in Western Macedonia. Shepherds preferred light colored guard dogs (dirty white, fawn) so they will not shoot them or hit by stick during a fight with wolfs. They preferred a little bit shorter hair (so snow will not stuck). Most of iron grey dogs that you can find in Sharr Mountains region today are offsprings of Yugoslav military dogs that were given to local shepherds.

However, I don't agree that original Sharplaninac was some unique Albanian breed. The dog was extremely popular among Macedonian people (Miyaks, Torbesh) living in that area. For example, according to old Turkish tax collection records, there were 12,000 sheep and 700 Sharplaninac dogs in 1901 in Galichnik, one of Miyaks villiges in the region. There are also records created by representatives of Yugoslavian Federation of Cynology and Yugoslav army who visited the region and evaluated the dogs. I aknowledge it is possible that over time a distinctive variety of Sharplaninac has beed developed among Albanian shepherds. It would be great if Albanian cynologists preserve and standardize that breed. The problem is that as far I know, there is no official kennel club (cynology association) in Albania. (Please accept my appologies if i'm misinformed, and provide information. I would like to know more about the cynology in Albania!)

Bottom line: I support creation of a separate Deltari Ilir article that would provide more informaton about the distinctive variety or breed that can be founded among Albanians. That may be a chance to promote and preserve unique characteristics of that breed/variety. --N Jordan (talk) 06:30, 18 February 2015 (UTC)