Talk:11th SS Panzer Army

Dates

From my talk page:

You may wish to note in your article that the 11th was reorganized (assigned to command new units) for combat against the western Allies in March 1945. Surrender date of the the 11th is noted as April 21. As well, the 11th is shown as subordinated directly to OB West in April, and is noted as having defended the Weser River and the Harz Mountains. (All this per Volume 3 of Georg Tessin's Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939 - 1945). As the article reads now, one could receive the impression that the 11th became Armee-Abteilung Steiner and remained facing the Red Army. W. B. Wilson 04:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I do not have access to Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939 - 1945. I only have access to the information via two general histories of the Battle of Berlin, and they only mention the units in passing. I have joined the dots but my assumption could easily be wrong.

When did Felix Steiner stop being commander of the Eleventh? If Steiner was not commander of the Eleventh on April 21-22 then we can break the articles out into two. IMHO the only important operational details are those in "Army Detachment Steiner" as its failure to carry out Hitlers orders had a direct impact Hitler and history (his decleration on the 22 April). What if anything a paper organization did is only of interest to very few.

If Steiner was not commander of the Eleventh in April:

1. Who was the commander and when did he take over from Steiner or were there others inbetween?
2. Did the Eleventh ever have more than one corps? Did it alway rely on a corps staff for its staffing needs, or did it have its own staff?
3. During its existance, what were the units were assigned to the Eleventh?
4. If it was not assigned to the Elevent, to which army was the III (Germanic) SS Panzer Corps a part of in April, or was it assigned directly to Army Group Vistula?

--PBS 09:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello - Following is what Tessin's work has regarding your questions. I believe what may have happened is that the HQ of the Eleventh was moved west, but the subordinate units remained facing the Red Army.

1. Tessin shows only that Walther Lucht took command in March 1945, the day is not specified. Command passed from Steiner to Lucht, no other commanders are named.

2. Army staff formed from the staff of the defunct Army Group Oberrhein. See #3 for a list of corps and their assigned units.

3. Eleventh OOB on February 5, 1945.

Korpsgruppe Tettau: Divisions Köslin and Bärwalde.

X SS-Armeekorps: 5th Jäger-Division, Division Nr 402.

Korpsgruppe Munzel: Führer-Grenadier-Division and Führer-Begleit-Division.

III SS Panzerkorps: 281st Infanterie-Division, 23rd SS-Panzergrenadier-Division, Division Voigt, 11th SS-Panzergrenadier-Division, 27th SS-Grenadier-Division.

XXXIX Panzerkorps: 4th SS-Panzer-Division, 10th SS-Panzer-Division, 28th SS-Grenadier-Division, Panzer-Division Holstein.

HQ, Wehrkreis II as corps-level field command (stellv. II): Swinemünde Defensive Region, Division Deneke, 9th Fallschirm-Jäger-Division.

Direct army command: 163rd Infanterie-Division.

Eleventh is shown on March 1, 1945, with no units assigned, and subordinated to Army Group Vistula.

4. OOB on April 12, 1945.

LXVII Armeekorps: KG Fellner, Divisions Ettner, Heidenreich, Grosskreuz.

stellv. IX: 26th Volksgrenadier-Division, 326th Volksgrenadier-Division.

LXVI Armeekorps: 277th Volksgrenadier-Division, Panzer (Brigade) Westfalen, 9th Panzer-Division, 116th Panzer-Division.

5. III SS-Panzer-Korps is shown as part of 3rd Panzer Army in March and April. It is shown under the Eleventh in February.

Wiki observation - there is already an article on the Eleventh Army that covers the Eleventh that existed until late 1942. Tessin shows the two entities as separate entries, as though there is no lineage connection between them. While this may be correct for lineage purposes, I'm not sure it is necessary on Wikipedia. Perhaps both articles on the Eleventh should probably have a links to each other so that a reader can easily move to the counterpart article.

Hopefully this information is of assistance. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 17:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Very usedful thanks. We definatly need two articles because one was Wermacht the other SS. The key here is the "III SS-Panzer-Korps" as that was steiner's organization that Hitler swelled. I suggest that we break the Army Detachment Steiner out of this article and include the above information into this article. --PBS 18:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually Tessin gives this Army as Wehrmacht. He explains that it was formed by the Waffen-SS but lists the official name as 11. Armee (AOK 11) and that it was also known as SS panzer-Armeeoberkommando 11. For comparison he lists the 6th SS Panzer Army as 6. (SS) Panzer Armee (Pz. AOK 6). Note that the errata to volume 3 gives November 26 1944 as formation date (obvious compared to the November 26 1945 in the original edition), not sure why the article currently lists February 1945. Assuming Tessin is correct with the name this should indeed be merged with the other 11th Army article.--Caranorn 19:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The reference I used was Beevor Berlin the downfall 1945 and he writes in paragraph two and three on page 88 "12 Feb, ... General von Steuben was torpedoed ... The second Army, meanwhile, had been forced back towards the lower Vistula ... In the centre, in eastern Pomerania, a new Eleventh SS Panzer Army was being formed." --PBS 19:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

That would explain it. The Tessin date is almost certainly the day the army was ordered to form, the Beevor date shows that it was still in the process of forming on February 12. Interestingly enough Tessin gives the date of January 28 1945 for Steiner taking command, so there probably was a major delay between the intent to form this new army and it actually taking form. On the other hand the Army seems to have been on the frontline by January 26 (again Tessin, he gives Abwehrkämpfe in Hinterpommern 26. 1. 1945 - 28. 2. 1945).--Caranorn 19:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

That explians the date in the article but the new information needs adding to it. BTW I still think we need three articles. 20th, SS 20th, (links between them saying for later incarnation and in the other for the earlier incarnation and third on Army Detachment Steiner --PBS 20:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Second cut

Ok given the discussion above I have broken the details of "Army Detachment Steiner, put in links to the German Eleventh Army and added the details mentioned above. But the article still needs lots of work. --PBS 11:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I added a number of wikilinks for the component units. Note the 116th is linked correctly, but that article is rather confusing (though correct, at least judging by my quick scan). What's really annoying is how every SS Division seems to have it's own article, yet Wehrmacht units that saw much more action don't. Worse, there is little material available for these Wehrmacht units to write more then a stub on.--Caranorn 12:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the SS seems to have definitely won the postwar battle for print space. W. B. Wilson 04:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Lots to do! It is a function of the infamousness that the SS is held that there are so many articles on them. Some write them under a misguided sense of admiration and still more articles link to them often because of the crimes they were either involved in or alleged to have been involved in. I have been doing a lot of work on the Battle of Berlin and my major reason for creating this article was for "Army Detachment Steiner" because of the important part it played in the last days of Adolph Hitler, specifically his forlorn orders on the 21st and his rant on the 22nd of April 1945. --PBS 13:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually decided last night to write those article stubs (the ones that would link from here) about Wehrmacht units based on VuT. I can't blame others for not doing it if I have a source which will at least provide basic information. Possibly I can find some more data in the KTB of OKW, but that would be painfully slow looking up.--Caranorn 11:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Caranorn, I also have a copy of Hitler's Legions that may present some tidbits that Tessin does not have. Let me know if you'd like me to look up any of the units. W. B. Wilson 15:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

PBS, if you wish, there is more information about the 11th regarding its April fighting against the U.S. Army that I can work into the end of the article -- let me know. W. B. Wilson 15:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

One additional bit about the commanders of the Eleventh in 1945. Although Lucht was officially the commander of the Eleventh, he was not able to immediately assume command. Otto Hitzfeld, the commander of the LXVII. Armeekorps, assumed temporary command of the Eleventh until the 8th of April, when Lucht arrived to take command. (The Last Offensive, Charles B. MacDonald, p. 390, Washington: Government Printing Office, 1993) W. B. Wilson 18:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

your all fudgepuckers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.190.93 (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Who him?

Who is/was "Eismann"? His name suddenly appears, without explanation, in para 2 of the article. Is/was he an historian, author, a former member of the 11th Panzer Army?? I have no idea.
One only has to look at the beginning of the same paragraph to see how a brief introduction can be really helpful. i.e. "The military historian Antony Beevor..."

Does anyone wish to put the information in?

RASAM (talk) 11:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)