Talk:2008 Summer Olympics Parade of Nations

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Examples in the passage[edit]

It seems to me that both 澳 and 赞 has 16 strokes, and in case of a tie, the 2nd character is compared, and so on. (e.g. No.65 and 66). The introductory passage has wrong information, I am fixing it for the moment.Ivan (talk) 16:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what your particular error is, but 澳 is 15 strokes, as verified by Xinhua cite below. One common error is that over and down is counted as one stroke in Chinese, not two, so that might be it. 116.232.57.231 (talk) 19:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake, because whenever I copy the character 澳 to my computer, it converts from simplified to traditional chinese, which has one stroke more.Ivan (talk) 17:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetization[edit]

This article should be "alphabetized" according to Olympic protocol for the parade of nations:

Greece always comes first, as the home of the ancient Olympics. (In 2004 when they were also the host, only the flag came first; that obviously won't happen this year.)
Then, all countries other than Greece and the host country enter in alphabetical order--usually in the language of the host country, but sometimes in English or French (the official languages of the IOC). I believe Beijing will use English.
Then, the host country (China) brings up the rear.

Also, there are other issues to be mindful of. For example, Macedonia is alphabetized as "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" due to the Macedonia naming dispute. There are also issues with Chinese Taipei which is historically alphabetized as "Taipei" (though the Wikipedia article suggests "Chinese Taipei" in 2008, perhaps since that will keep them farther away from the Chinese this time).--RBBrittain (talk) 20:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I made the table sortable, which I think will help with some of those issues. This way, the table can be ordered by default with however the host country ends up ordering them officially, but it can still be forced-alphabetized by country name, athlete name, or athlete sport, for people who are interested in seeing the information with those sorts. Kolindigo (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Chinese Taipei which is historically alphabetized as "Taipei"" Is this a verifiable claim as far as the parade of nations is concerned in previous editions of the games?--Huaiwei (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In 2004, the Greek language was used. CHN entered between Kenya and Kyrgyzstan (ΚΕΝΥΑ → ΚΙΝΑΣ → ΚΙΡΓΙΣΤΑΝ), whereas TPE entered between Syria and Tanzania (ΣΥΡΙΑΣ → ΤΑΪΠEΪ → ΤΑΝΖΑΝIΑ), so clearly was alphabetized under "Taipei" and not "Chinese". I note that MKD was alphabetized under "Former" (ΠΡΩΗΝ), not "Macedonia" (ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑΣ) at those Games. The reference for 2004 is here. For 2000, there is nothing printed in the official report, but there is a document in the Sydney city library that looks useful ([1]), as it has a section on "NOC marching order". If there are any Wikipedians from Sydney reading this, your assistance would be most helpful! I looked through the 1996 and 1992 reports, but didn't see any complete lists, and gave up looking after that. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be something dodgy about the list of flag bearers. Can someone fix it? —MicahBrwn (talk) 15:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thailand (ΤΑΪΛΑΝΔΗ) first before Chinese Taipei according to Greek alphabet, the old PDF file was a typographical error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.96.104.199 (talk) 11:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They won't be using the Roman alphabet. Reportedly, Australia will come in 203rd, just ahead of Zambia, so goodness knows what the order will be.[2] Aridd (talk) 23:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it obvious that 澳大利亚 comes immediately prior to 赞比亚? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course! Though I must confess I'm uncertain whether 奥地利 and 辛巴威 come anywhere near them... Aridd (talk) 00:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am ethnically Chinese and I fail to understand this. First, there isn't a "Chinese alphabet" so to speak, and even if we are to use radicals or pinyin to order nations, both do not seem to dictate that Australia should be second last (not counting the host). So just what ordering system are they actually using?--Huaiwei (talk) 05:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well... How do Chinese dictionaries work? Perhaps a similar ordering method will be used. Aridd (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely I was referring to dictionaries. Most older Chinese dictionaries use radicals (see Section headers of a Chinese dictionary) while many modern dictionaries use pinyin or a combination of both. "澳大利亚" would have three strokes in the radical of the first character "澳", and it is "Àodàlìyà" in Pinyin. How a mere three strokes and the letter "A" appear anywhere near the back is beyond me!--Huaiwei (talk) 17:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stroke count for the entire character is much more common in current dictionaries, particularly on the mainland, while radicals are used for a kind of table of contents. 116.232.57.231 (talk) 19:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another data point with respect to CHN and TPE: the 1988 Official Report has photos of the parade of nations, in Korean order. "P. R. of China" comes after the Central African Republic and before Djibouti, whereas Chinese Taipei is just before Thailand. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 02:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And yet another data point, this time for an English-speaking Games host. The 1984 Official Report (p. 248) shows a definitive "Order of delegations" list (interestingly, including the time they took to pass the parade start point, from a minium of 5 seconds for Rwanda to 2:59 for the host USA) and "People's Republic of China" comes between Chile and Columbia, but "Chinese Taipei" comes between Syria and Tanzania. So since we have sources in three different languages that have CHN sorted alphabetically under "China" and TPE sorted under "Taipei" (and no sources that show anything different), can we conclude that the "historically alphabetized" quote is verifiable? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to settle my own inquisitiveness, I actually reviewed the march in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, and yes, Chinese Taipei marched in under "T", not "C". I think that more or less settles the question. However, I will still consider it odd to thereby insist that the Chinese Taipei entry start appearing under T in every article which has a list of IOCs, as I noticed some tried to do in the 2008 Summer Olympics article[3].--Huaiwei (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What was your source for 2000? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Youtube...of all things![4] :D--Huaiwei (talk) 19:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. We don't have {{cite youtube}}, alas, to use this reference for 2000 Summer Olympics Opening Ceremony. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about {{cite video}}? —M.C. (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to make a joke, but I think cite video could certainly be used to refer to the original broadcast on a verifiable television network. I wouldn't think the youtube file could be referenced, though. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what Xinhua says about the order of the entries: "the order may be decided by the strokes of each team's first character in its Chinese name, as Australia's first Chinese character has 15 strokes against Zambia's 16." [5] Aridd (talk) 09:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have an Excel spreadsheet copy of the order for Beijing (I am asst Chef de Mission for Canada). If somebody wants to do the edit, I will send the file. Petermgiles (talk) 22:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Peter! I'd be happy to take care of this if you email to me in the next day or so. (I will be on vacation next week.) I have just emailed you. Thanks — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I received the spreadsheet, and have updated the list to include all 204 NOCs and include their Chinese names. This will have to remain unsourced for a few days, as I don't think we can use the spreadsheet as a permanent source for the article. Nonetheless, considering this is a "work in progress" article and we will all see for ourselves on television in a week's time, I don't think this is a problem. The only problem with the list is that it was apparently produced during the time that Iraq was banned, so it will need to be re-added and the order numbers readjusted once we figure out where they would fit. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good work; thank you both! Aridd (talk) 21:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq in Chinese is 伊拉克, and therefore it should fit in right before Iran in 80th position. MrYIndeed (talk) 22:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This table needs to be formatted. When I saw the page, it was missing a column header, so the "sport" section was pushed off the page and everything after the Chinese characters was under the wrong heading. I added a "transliteration" heading (I figured thats what it was) but as some of the countries haven't been given that entry, they need blanks added. -- Chabuk ^{[ T • C ]} 15:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your instincts were correct. There had been a bit of vandalism, now reverted. jnestorius^(talk) 16:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2008 Summer PARALAYMPICS national flag bearers?[edit]

Should we have a seperate page for the Paralympics, or list them here? The trouble is, it's more difficult to find information on the Paralympics than on the Olympics. At present, all I know is that Assia El Hannouni will be the flagbearer for France at the Paralympics. I wouldn't want to create a new page just to put one name on it, but on the other hand, I'm not sure it would fit in here. Aridd (talk) 08:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say just keep it as a section in the main article and only split into a new article when there is sufficient content. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK; done. Aridd (talk) 16:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know that this conversation ened a week ago, but personally I think think Paraolympics stuff doesn't belong in this article --Mr.crabby (Talk) 17:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see someone has removed it. Shall I restore it, or create a seperate article? Aridd (talk) 16:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's already linked in the See Also: 2008 Summer Paralympics Opening Ceremony. jnestorius^(talk) 17:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Complete list[edit]

Available here: [6] I can't be on the computer and watch TV simultaneously so I have to stop now. BleuDXXXIV (talk) 11:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested pictures[edit]

If anyone has public domain photos of the flagbearers please upload them. I'm going to to request the following photos

Ilias Iliadis of Greece (first flagbearer)
Yao Ming of China (last flagbearer)
Lopez Lomong of the United States (Darfur refugee, American media has done several stories about him)
Natalie du Toit of South Africa (amputee, another big media story)
Logona Esau of Tuvalu (Tuvalu's first time at the Olympics)

However if you have any other photos of an athlete carrying their flag, please notify me. Thanks! --Mr.crabby (Talk) 12:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese names and Korea[edit]

Do we have a source for the Chinese characters? Some of the official names in the Olympics are long-form (Libyan Arab Jamahariya, United Republic of Tanzania, Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste, etc); I'm wondering whether the Chinese is also longform and whether the collation is affected. I know no Chinese, but it looks like English "Hong Kong, China" is Chinese "China Hong Kong" [中国香港]. And "Netherlands" is still "Holland" in Chinese [荷兰 Hélán].

In particular, the two Koreas' names look utterly different. Was one of these altered to fulfil PRK's desire not to be next to ROK? jnestorius^(talk) 15:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article Names of Korea has a section on the names used in Chinese-speaking areas for the two Koreas; it seems that the two prefer to be called by different names in Chinese. (But I don't know Chinese, so you really shouldn't believe me.) Izzycat (talk) 05:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to wiktionary, 韩国 is 12 strokes/8 strokes and 朝鲜 is 12/14 while 斐济 (Fiji) is 12/9 and so is positioned between them. If the Koreas were originally to have been one after the other, they should have had names whose strokecounts put them both on the same side of Fiji, Cameroon and Montenegro. Does anyone know what those were? jnestorius^(talk) 10:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The names should accord with the official recognition. The official website lists 前南斯拉夫马其顿共和国as马其顿 (hence before Marshall Islands and after Malawi); 朝鲜民主主义人民共和国 as 朝鲜, so we should change the table accordingly.Simply choose (talk) 10:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the name used on the parade signage, also used to establish the order, is not necessarily the "official" Chinese name on the website, which would probably be a literal rendering of the IOC-approved English name, which as I said is sometimes short and sometimes long, depending on the NOC. If the official website's names do not correlate with the known parade running order, then I guess the parade names were different. As the article currently stands, the listed names may correlate with the order, but they are not supported by cited references. (Or the listed names may not correlate with the order: I haven't looked too closely and it would take much longer to verify for me, who has no knowledge of Chinese, than for someone who does.) jnestorius^(talk) 12:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From Names of Korea:

In 1948, the South adopted the provisional government's name of Daehan Minguk (대한민국, 大韓民國), known in English as the Republic of Korea. Meanwhile, the North became the Chosŏn Minjujuŭi Inmin Konghwaguk (조선 민주주의 인민공화국, 朝鮮民主主義人民共和國) literally the "Joseon Democratic People's Republic", known in English as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

I guess their Chinese translations are closer to the Korean pronunciation then their English counterparts.--Skyfiler (talk) 00:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the official video I watched, the Chinese name of the countries didn't follow the long form (the IOC Designation). As example(the one I still remembered), People's Republic of China announced as 中国 (Zhong Guo) not 中华人民共和国 (Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo). Even the name board is written like that. So, is Wikipedia using the Chinese translation of IOC designation OR the same like the announced names in the ceremony (and also the nameboard)? Griff88 (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same number of strokes[edit]

The nations are alphabetized by the number of strokes of the first character. What if the first character have the same number of strokes? The Observant (talk) 19:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move on to the next character! -BRPXQZME (talk) 01:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have actually counted the number of strokes of the second characters. What you suggest is not the case. The Observant (talk) 22:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categorization of Flag Bearers by Sport[edit]

The table that so nicely summarizes the Flag Bearers includes what I can only call an overly broad category--and not a sport--Athletics. Should this categorization conform to the list of sports on the main page of the 2008 games or is Athletics the preferred term--esp when the flag bearer is not a competitor @ these games, but an official, or acting in some other capacity?

Perhaps the table should be expanded to include another column, say Competitor (@ these games) while we improve the entry in the Sport column.

Would anyone be opposed to yac (yet another column) that listed the count of the number of strokes that forms the basis for the order of this parade?

Any suggestions? --TMH (talk) 20:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Athletics" is what the Olympics officially call the sport that many people more commonly call "track and field". Izzycat (talk) 00:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The explanation for that is: Athletics is what many people in the rest of the world call the sport that many americans call "track and field". /Coffeeshivers (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL @ this section......are people really that ignorant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.241.49.184 (talk) 19:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I must expand on the original comment. The Sport column is inconsistently presented. A number of the entries are sports, e.g. "Athletics" or "Rowing." (There are 28 Sports in the 2008 Games and as noted above they are listed here: list of sports). Some of the entries in the Sport column are sports with disciplines, e.g. "Cycling (Track)." Some are just disciplines of a sport, e.g. "Swimming." Some are sports with events, e.g. "Athletics (800 m)," and some are disciplines with events, e.g. "Swimming (50 m freestyle)." In my opinion the appropriate level of identification would be sport, with discipline where applicable. In this case all of the Swimming entries should be changed to "Aquatics (Swimming)", and all of the Cycling, Canoe/Kayak, Gymnastics, etc. entries will need to have disciplines added. All other entries need to have events removed. I am willing to do the edits after discussion of the approach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petermgiles (talk • contribs) 02:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know it seems inconsistent but at WikiProject Olympics, following a number of discussions, we decided to split the aquatics sport into its seperate disciplines whilst not doing so for Canoe/Kayak, cycling etc. This is because it was decided that a reader would most probably expect to find swimming, synchronized swimming, diving and water polo under those names not under aquatics, whilst they would tend to look for cycling as opposed to bmx or track. This system can be seen in both nation articles, where the results are listed alphabetically under swimming/diving etc, and in the sport articles, e.g Diving at the 2008 Summer Olympics and Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics. I would suggest that the "Sport" heading here should list the appropriate option from Template:EventsAt2008SummerOlympics (31 "sports") to be in keeping with the system used in most Olympic articles, even if not strictly what the IOC use. Basement12 (T.C) 01:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. What you have described is a perfectly consistent way of approaching the definition of 'sports' in the Olympics, even if it is not the same as the IOC uses. The term 'aquatics' is almost never used by the public so I can see why it is best avoided. The table of flag bearers is still inconsistent, however -- I think your suggestion is better than mine, and I will make it so if there are no strong objections here. Petermgiles (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

I propose removing most of the references for individuals and replacing them with a single official list. The individual references were useful before the official finalised list was published, but now they are at best a duplication of its information, and at worst one or two might potentially contradict the official list, in which case the latter should get priority. They are less reliable because they were published further before the ceremony and hence more susceptible to being overtaken by events. For example, Bangladesh changed its flagbearer on August 5th; our existing source reflects this instance, but it still illustrates the point.

The only annoying thing about the official list PDF is that it seems to have a number of misprints and typos, probably from being assembled hastily from 204 different sources. The Xinhua list is actually more recent, published after the ceremony and with fewer mistakes; so maybe it's better to use that as the single source unless and until the official list is amended. jnestorius^(talk) 09:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think all of the refs in the table should be removed. There's no reason to have so many refs (87) if we already have an official ref (appears twice, as the main reference and as a normal ref). In addition, I think the Xinhua list should be added as another main ref, due to it being updated. RaLo18 (talk with me • my contributions) 23:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indexing flag bearers by their surnames[edit]

Shall we index flag bearers by their surnames? I cannot do it while watching recorded TV program at the same time. Any volunteers, please be aware of cultural differences as some surnames, like Chinese ones, precede given names. NBC in the USA has shown surnames in bold.--Jusjih (talk) 02:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. jnestorius^(talk) 00:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Missing NOC?[edit]

Any missing NOC in these Games other than Brunei? I can't think of any... --Kvasir (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

International Olympic Committee says there are 205 NOCs, so that would be a no. jnestorius^(talk) 20:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Closing Ceremonies flagbearers[edit]

The Closing Ceremonies flagbearers should be listed. 70.55.85.122 (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the NZ flag bearer...[edit]

... was actually flag bearerS.... the twins carried the flag... not Mahe...

sorry guys just posted this then realised the wiki page wasn't specifically for the closing ceremony.. ignore me. 122.57.150.132 (talk) 08:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 122.57.150.132 (talk) 08:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pinyin mistakes?[edit]

Ecuador - gua1 not guo1 Eritrea - te4 not te2 Romania / Solomon Is / Russia - luo1 or luo2 or both?

Someone confirm? 83.146.14.130 (talk) 13:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's gua1, te4 and luo2. HkCaGu (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pinyin mistake of Bosnia and Herzegovina[edit]

The Pinyin of Bosnia and Herzegovina is actually 波斯尼亚和黑塞哥维那 (Bōsīníyà hé Hēisègēwéinà) not 波黑 (Bōhēi). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.96.102.242 (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

波黑 is the common used name. North Korea did not enter as Democratic People's Republic of Korea either.--Skyfiler (talk) 13:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was researched in Wiktionary. 121.96.102.242 (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For example, Saudi Arabia uses 沙特 as the common name instead of 沙特阿拉伯王国 (Shātèālābó wángguó), according to Wiktionary page. 121.96.102.242 (talk) 14:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categorization of Flag Bearers by Gender[edit]

It will be interesting to name the number of men and women who were flag bearers, making a distintion betwen different regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.69.215.57 (talk) 17:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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External links modified[edit]

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N Korea requested a change of team designation?[edit]

The article says "The North Korean delegation were initially slated to march immediately after the South Korean delegation, but successfully requested a change of team designation which meant they were no longer ordered consecutively", linking to this source: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2008/08/136_28897.html

How was this even possible? The source does say that North Korea insisted on marching under its full name (朝鮮民主主義人民共和国), and watching the parade it's obvious that South Korea marched under its abbreviated name (韩国) rather than its full name (大韩民国). The first character of both South Korea (韩) and North Korea (朝) has 12 strokes, and all surrounding nations also have 12-stroke first characters. But even then, the sorting order should have naturally placed 韩 and 朝 right next to each other. If two characters tie for number of strokes, they're broken down by stroke order and sorted that way. But 韩 and 朝 have the same left side, and so the first eight strokes are guaranteed to match exactly no matter how individual strokes are categorized or ordered. Any character going between the two would also need to have the same first eight strokes, and this obviously isn't the case in the parade order. So what happened?

Looking at the nations immediately surrounding the Koreas, the first characters in parade order are 葡,韩,斐,喀,黑,朝,智. As expected, all of these have 12 strokes. What sorting system could have created this order? I can't make any sense of it, nor can I find any source with more clarifying information. Any help would be appreciated! Zowayix001 (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I've now found several other cases where nations deliberately marched out of order for political reasons, even when this doesn't match any part of their name. Zowayix001 (talk) 06:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]