Talk:2010 Summer Youth Olympics medal table/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mixed team events

Original question and subsequent discussion

How are mixed team events being treated? Are medals being credited individually for each member of the team (e.g. five golds for Italy/one for Russia in the mixed team fencing event)? 218.186.8.251 (talk) 08:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi there, you might want to note a similar discussion ongoing at Talk:2010 Summer Youth Olympics. You can access it quickly by clicking here. Consensus is still being gathered, but for now, I can safely say the individual countries will probably not be directly credited (maybe mentioned in a footnote). ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 09:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Also, if I'm not wrong, if say the mixed NOC team emerges first in an event, only one single gold medal would be awarded instead of one for each participating nation OR each participating athlete. The gold medal would be awarded to the mixed NOC team itself. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 09:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
The situation is exactly the same as early olympics, now I think it's better to use Mixed team in the medal table. for all these medals under olympic flag. --Mohsen1248 (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
If mixed team is used here I think it shouldn't be given a rank. Based on my understanding, it's rank (and medals) doesn't really mean anything other than the number of mixed team events there are, and it'll automatically get one of each medal for each such event. Unless there are events which have mixed teams competing against national teams, which I'm not aware of. Laboomsikashod (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you Laboomsikashod. The mixed tally is just showing the number of events and of course it will automatically get a gold, a silver and a bronze medal. I really think it shouldnt be included in the rank. But how can we get the official medal total tally of Olympic events if thoe mixed team medal tally is removed? I think the solution that better solves this problem is that: We dis tribute a gold medal for each country joined in a mixed team and find the total of all the medals.. But, at the end, we will put an Official medal tally because there is only one gold, silver and bronze medal for one mixed team event. It is like what I did yesterday. It will really be unfair for those athletes and countries who gained medals for the mixed event if we dont distribute those. Thats why we also have an official total medal tally at the end, aside from the total medals tallied, so that they will realize that one of their events really came from a mixed event and that mixed event only contains one gold, silver and bronze medal. Mohsen/Green, what do you think bro? I am waiting for your answers because we really need to settle this...

Distribution of mixed NOC medals in tally

Hi Mohsen/Green, this is kuyacomeback.. I just keep wondering why you are deleting the medal tally containing the distributed mixed NOC medals. Bro, take this true example into account... right now, there is a doubles competition in men's table tennis... Bro, I am going to ask you a query,,, how are you going to tally the medal of the tennis competition-boys' doubles when the first team, which is eventually two Russians, defeats the second team which is composed of Great Britain and Czech Republic? Are you going to put the gold medal of Russia, if in case the two Russians won, in the mixed team? Of course not bro!!! Its not for continental, its for their own country... When you put the gold medal earned to mixed tally instead of Russia, it will be unfair to Russia. Of course, the silver medal earned also by the second placer should be placed in their respective countries then to be consistent with the tallying of the gold medal. Guys, lets make this clear.... I'll be convinced if you answered this query? How will you assess the distribution of medal tally of the men's tennis doubles competition? There are two teams each having two athletes from the same country but there is also one team that contains two athletes from two different countries? I think it will be better if we distribute the mixed competition medals to respective countries and find the total of medals given.But after that, we make an official total, just like what I did. I really think its unfair for those countries concerned in which their athletes earned medals coming from mixed competition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuyacomeback (talk • contribs) 13:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi, my answer is clear, it's all depend on IOC because this is an IOC event. if they use the russian flag, (or slovakia flag for the bronze medal) it's a Russian medal. if they use the olympic flag, it's a mixed team medal. what do you think about 1896, 1900 and 1904 olympics ? this is exactly the same situation. --Mohsen1248 (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
This is just stupid. Now it looks like the Mixed Team actually is a team, just like Luxembourg or Liechtenstein. But they aren't. Look how stupid it is: they currently have 4 gold, 4 silver and 4 bronze medals. Ofcourse, they can't loose, they win all the medals in team events... It looks like they're a great team, but it isn't a team! You can't compare it with the 1896 Olympics, because there athletes competed against each other, no nations. Here, nations compete, but in some events, they're mixed: the mixed events. That doesn't mean they aren't Russian or Canadian or whatever? 91.176.223.106 (talk) 13:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you mr./ms.anonymous,,, im really confused with the statements of bro mohsen regarding the rule he is trying to establish... like, in the doubles competition of tennis, golding and the other athlete represents two nations but they are coming from the same continent...it is also a mixed event and the problem occurs there because of the fact that there are also teams having two athletes but representing one nation..and remember this is a mixed event too bro mohsen..Kuyacomeback (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
yeah it's stupid to you, not me ! these medals are official so we can't ignore them, but as i said before, "this is exactly the same as the early olympics". I saw the archery final, no Italian or Belarus flag. they used the olympic flag and olympic anthem. and don't forget this table is just for summary, not to show which team is stronger. --Mohsen1248 (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Your argument is invalid. The IOC doens't make a medals table for countries, so in fact: we can make the table as we want it to be. So stop saying the IOC says this and that, it's not true. This table is completely wrong. I'll give an example: Belgian Nicola Philippaerts won a gold medal in the team event equestrian. On the page Belgium at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics, Belgium has one gold medal. But Belgium isn't mentioned in the general medal table. Don't you think this is insane? And we can't say Belgium did not win a medal, Philippaerts is Belgian, so Belgium won a medal. Point final, as they say in French. 91.176.223.106 (talk) 14:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the mixed team option is the better than distributing the medals to various nations, however I agree that rating the mixed team is questionable as some of the events are contested solely by mixed teams. Whether it is the best solution I don't know. On a related note I was navigating the result pages on www.singapore2010.sg, and the mixed teams apparantly has the three letter designation MIX not ZZX. Similarly, it seems that the mixed teams are consistently referred to as mixed NOCs. As far as the tennis events are concerned the RUS/RUS team is not a mixed team nor is any other single nation team. While several of the matches involving this team appear on the mixed NOCs' result page, this is because they faced mixed opposition. The RUS/RUS vs HUN/HUN match on 17 august is not included on the mixed NOCs' page, but it is on Russia's page. The medal the Russian team receives is, as far as I'm concerned, a Russian medal. 85.167.108.43 (talk) 14:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Continuation of discussion from Talk:2010 Summer Youth Olympics

  • Note A similar dicussion ongoing at Talk:2010 Summer Youth Olympics is now continued here. For quick access to the discussion section, please click here. Please use this section to discuss all matters regarding attribution for mixed-NOC events. If there is any feedback on this note, please do tell me. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I think we all need to take a deep breath first. I have updated this page: Mixed team at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics to indicate the mixed team medals presented to date and all the athletes that participated under the IOC banner. The medal table you are trying to edit, for all intents and purposes is a NOC medal table. Those athletes while they do come from different nations, do not exclusively represent the nation in that event. Kuyacomeback and all the Anonymous people who want the inclusion of the medals, explain to me your proposal on how you think the table should look like? I have seen people who want to include those medals account for them very differently and inconsistently.GreenB.live (talk) 14:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
If you are not confident of your edits to the medal table, I strongly recommend you stop for the time being. It is best to continue updating non-mixed team medals, while leaving out the mixed team ones (you can store info on these in say a hidden comment or on this page). Let us iron out the issue with mixed team accreditation here first. Thanks, ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I would say: put back the table from two days ago, with the medals given to each country, and after the name of the country a note, that will be explained at the bottom of the table. For every country one note, with the medals won in mixed team events. That's fair and transparant. 91.176.223.106 (talk) 14:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
  • From what I understand of the issue thus far, mixed-NOC teams have competed in the Olympics before (early 1900s). I don't know though how the medals were attributed, so we need to check the info on the medal tables for those Games. And a mixed-NOC team will remain a mixed-NOC team even if all those playing in the competition are from the same country while those from other countries are not playing (injured, on the bench etc). However, I have doubts about grouping all mixed-NOC team medal winners under the generic "Mixed team (ZZX)". Why was it created and placed on the medal table in the first place - is it per IOC convention or past Wikipedia practices? A simple solution would be to create a new column to the right of the medal table, named "Mixed". If a nation was involved in a mixed team, we can simple put "Yes" in the table cell, followed by a prompt to "see below" (which will lead to a legend or footnotes). ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
One thing for sure is that medals won by mixed-NOC teams must be mentioned at least somehow in the medal table. They are still medals, after all. I think everyone should agree on this. Please reply! ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Once everyone comes to an agreement (see comment directly above), we must decide how exactly the information on medals won by mixed-NOC teams should be presented. Some propose that the NOCs involved in the mixed-NOC team will all + 1 medal each, while others propose that medals be credited under the common group called "Mixed team". Has the practice of inserting the "Mixed team" group into the medal table ever been done prior to this Games? ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Representation of members of mixed NOC teams

My opinion is that the members of mixed NOC teams does not represent their nation or NOC. Medals should therefore not be added to their NOC's medal count. The athletes should be mentioned in the "NOC at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics page". I share the above concerns regarding a single Mixed team. It seems as though the mixed NOCs represent continents. (Which is not unheard of, see IAAF Continental Cup.) Perhaps an additional table showing how the different continents' mixed NOCs compare without necessarily removing mixed team from the main table. If mixed team is to be kept in the main table, I would like to reiterate my concerns regarding the code (ZZX vs MIX) and name (mixed team vs mixed NOCs) of this "team". 85.167.108.43 (talk) 15:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with first two sentences. Instead of being added to the NOC's medal count, a footnote can be added or a separate column (as I proposed earlier) so that readers will realise that the NOC was involved in a mixed-NOC team which won a medal. Sorry, what do you mean by "the athletes should be mentioned in the "NOC at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics page" "? With regards to a single "Mixed team" being listed, we can stick with that but not rank it, by inserting a dash. An example of this being used is in List of countries by GDP (nominal), where "European Union" is given a dash and not ranked since it is not a country. Adding another table which shows solely how the different continents' mixed NOCs compare is not a bad idea. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The Belgian athlete mentioned above should have his medal mentioned somewhere on Belgium at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics with a link to wherever we end up placing these teams or events. Note the difference between the terms "mixed NOCs" and "mixed team". Which of them imply that it is a "team"? I prefer "mixed NOCs" for this reason, plus that it seems that it is the official term. 85.167.108.43 (talk) 15:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

While you are correct regarding the gender of the Belgian athlete you should not have edited my comment. As it happens, I was about to make the same edit, so no harm done. Regarding the issue being discussed I agree with mixed NOCs being unranked in the table, as most (or at least many) of the events are exclusively for mixed NOCs. 85.167.108.43 (talk) 17:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes editing others' comments is not appropriate; just note this in the future. You can just highlight in a follow-up comment the mistake that had been made. Anyway, I agree with 85.167.108.43's comment just two paragraphs above that the Belgian athlete that was part of the winning mixed-NOC should have his achievement noted in the Belgium at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics article. However, care must be taken to ensure that his achievement be noted as part of a larger achievement, ie. the mixed-NOC's achievement. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 05:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Mixed NOC v. Mixed Team

Another reply to 85.167.108.43's comment: Should such teams be termed "mixed NOCs" and "mixed team"? I suppose when we use "team", it refers to the entire group that comprises athletes that participate in a single sport. My personal opinion is that "mixed NOCs" can be misleading and confusing since its meaning is unclear. However, its mentioned that "mixed NOCs" is the official term adopted. Is there documentation, say a webpage or a press release, that shows this? I suppose the IOC or SYOGOC have some of these? We just need evidence of such usage. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 05:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Here's a commentary on the terms being used in the official websites. "...the introduction of innovative events, such as the mixed NOC team fencing competition" (IOC webpage). "...the Olympic hymn will be played during the Mixed-National Olympic Committee (NOC) team event victory ceremonies when the IOC flag is raised. It is the first time in Olympic history that there will be mixed-NOC events. The mixed-NOC events will feature teams of mixed nationalities ..." (SYOGOC webpage) Conclusively, I think the conclusion is that when referring to an event which sees combined nationalities participating as a team, it is called a "mixed-NOC team event". And when referring to the team in that event, it is called a "mixed-NOC team". And if we retain the group in the medal table, just simple call it "Mixed-NOC". We cancel out the usage of "Mixed team". ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 06:14, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Lost my response, and short on time. Agree with terms as official. One comment of mine deleted. Regarding Belgium case: this is inconsistently dealt with for the old mixed teams. Perhaps one of the options is preferable. Alternatively a section at Belgium at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics, perhaps "Belgians at mixed-NOC events. I will discuss further in a few hours. 85.167.108.43 (talk) 06:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The Olympics long time ago seems to have a mixed team which is entirely like the unified team that occurred in the later Olympics when Soviet Union broke up. As a matter of fact, there is a unified team right now in which the Kuwait athletes are in. These Kuwait athletes represent the IOC flag. Regarding the way the medal tally should be presented, I firmly believe that we need to distribute medals won in the mixed NOC team competition to each country involved but taking note that a medal from this country came from a mixed NOC competition. This is what I did two days ago, and placing a footnote corresponding to each note /letter in the table list. After that, we get the total of all the medals being tallied and then put another row to indicate an Official total, after the total of the medals distributed/tallied, in which case an Official total represents one gold, silver and bronze medals only for one mixed NOC competition. It is really unfair for those athletes who will not be recognized if there is a tally of gold, silver and bronze medals like what is happening right now. For example, the Belgian athlete. In our medal tally, we should tally one medal for the country Belgium but placing a note after Belgium's name by putting a letter and, after the table, there is a legend which states that the letter means that Belgium got this medal from a mixed NOC competition. Kuyacomeback (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

  • I made a comment at Talk:Mixed-NOC team at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics so that others will not be confused by what is going on, you can see it if you want to. The summary though can be expressed in these sentences: Mixed team refers to teams which have athletes from the two genders. There are articles on such "mixed team" participation at the early modern Olympics, there are covered in the Mixed team at the 1896 Summer Olympics article. The possibility lies that the title of the article is itself wrong, or that times have changed and the proper terminology has changed as well. As for the fact that newspapers and online portals are using "mixed team" right now, remember those are independent agencies not affliated to the official IOC or SYOGOC. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 06:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

A cup of tea Hey everyone, let us have a nice cup of tea and a sit down when we finish this discussion, which will hopefully be not long from today. I do hope no one's against tea or anything. It has been a long discussion after all. Cheers, ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 10:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

List of mixed-NOC team events and teams

Events which see the participation of mixed-NOC teams: Archery, athletics – medley relay, cycling – combined BMX-mountain bike-road, equestrian, fencing, judo, modern pentathlon – relay, swimming – relay, table tennis, tennis, and triathlon – relay.

To access all mixed-NOC results, go to this webpage, and in the drop-down list called "Schedule and Results by NOC", select the MIX-Mixed NOCs and press "Go". You can view all mixed-NOC results from there. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment: The results of the few tennis matches where two single NOC pairs have met are notably not available on the mixed-NOCs result page, thus confirming that such teams are not mixed-NOC. I again register my concern regarding the code ZZX which doesn't appear to be in use. By the way, which events are exclusively mixed-NOC? 85.167.109.5 (talk) 15:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure? I did find information on these on the results page. As for the usage of the ZZX code, I am just as concerned. I think I will remove the code and edit the label. As for which events are exclusively mixed-NOC, I tried to find info on these earlier as well but could not find any - which is a real headache. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
As an example: Can you find the boys' doubles quarterfinal 1 between an all-Russian and an all-Hungarian team with start time 1542 on Tuesday 17 August on the mixed-NOC result page? I can't...85.167.109.5 (talk) 15:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, that isn't considered to be mixed-NOC is it? So its not listed. Get me? ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that was my point as well. I was never in doubt about this but there was a question about what to do with these medals earlier in the discussion.85.167.109.5 (talk) 15:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Okay don't worry too much about this here since this section is meant to list the events that involved mixed-NOC teams. So editors get an idea. This section isn't really part of the discussion proper. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 16:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions and discussion on how to present mixed-NOC medals

Comments from believed-to-be Olympic history student
"HELP": As olympic history student, I write these lines trying to help the community about the mixed-teams problem. In the earlier olympic games there were competition formats not including the formal possibility of mixed-teams partecipation, so the olympic history researchers classified those medals won by athletes coming from different nations as medals won by (ZZX) Mixed Team. Instead the approach for the YOGs should be different, because the single sport federations expressly create competition formats to involve athletes from different nations in larger continental or mixed teams; plus these mixed teams are often created by a policy of meritocracy due the previous results obtained by the single athletes, which should make us consider these kinds of mixed teams extremely different from the mixed teams which partecipated in the first olympic games in XIX and XX centuries. For these reasons the most appropriate way to describe the medal table of YOGs should be to include the medals won as partecipation in mixed teams as medals won from the single NOCs, explaining this with some notes footer. Thank you for reading :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.53.71.124 (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the mixed-NOC events were included for different reasons than in the early Olympics and I agree that there is important differences between the two. However, I believe the reason for its inclusion to be "[t]o foster friendship among participants", particularly athletes from different nations. The IOC as you probably are aware, dislikes the ranking of nations. As the nature of these events are (intended to be) international cooperation and friendship I feel that this is an additional reason for not adding the medals to the respective NOCs. I am aware that at least some of the teams are constructed based on past results, but I fail to see why this is a reason to add a medal to the NOCs. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 20:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
As for how the IOC regards these events the news article "Countries unite for mixed NOC fencing event" at olympics.org is an interesting read. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 21:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
You are right mate, but, first: if we had to follow the CIO choices then we should not consider any kind of medal table for any OG and YOG edition, so our discussions about it would be totally useless; second: I fail to see why en.wikipedia should use for the YOG medal table statistics a different policy from the one that the single NOCs accepted and use worldwide. Anyway, you are free to decide. Salut :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.53.65.182 (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Closing statement: Yes if we had to follow the IOC's decision, then we would not come up with medal tables for any Olympic Games. Obviously this is not the case, and we retain one for the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics. As for the other medal tables used by single-NOCs, there is no mention about mixed-NOCs medals - I think that is flawed as such (greater prestige)? After all, we have come to an agreement that mixed-NOCs medals should not be counted in single-NOCs' medal counts. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 07:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

nl:Medaillespiegel van de Olympische Jeugdzomerspelen 2010 This is how it should be, in my opinion. The tabel mentiones all countries who won medals, including from mixed teams. Beneath the tabel, all results from mixed teams are mentioned per country. As you can see, it is very clear and not messy at all. 91.176.223.106 (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

  • SUGGESTION: My proposal is simple. For events where all the teams are continental teams, like fencing, equestrian and triathlon for example, these medals are not noted in the main table. Reasoning being that by definition, a mixed-NOC team would win all the medals in these events. The mixed-NOC team should however have a place in the medal table for events where there are both NOC and mixed-NOC teams like the tennis doubles, where GBR/CZE won boys' doubles gold or where HUN/BEL won girls' doubles bronze, but full NOC teams (RUS silver in boys' doubles; SVK silver in girls' doubles; CHN gold in girls' doubles) won the other medals. Obviously, these full-NOC teams would have their medals in these NOC/mixed-NOC events credited accordingly, so it would make sense to do this. 218.186.8.251 (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I believe all medals should be included in the main medal table. I agree that events with only mixed-NOC participation cause a problem, and suggests that mixed-NOC teams (MIX?) appear unranked in the medal table. For the "continental" events the medals can be additionally assigned to the continents in a separate table, either on the medal table page or on the mixed-NOC team page. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 15:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Note on name use If editors are confused as to the title ascribed to teams with mixed nationalities (NOCs) involved, it is mixed-NOCs team and not "mixed team" or otherwise. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 16:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposal Another solution would be to add the total number of medals, any form of mixed-NOCs participation included, in parentheses besides the actual medal count without any form of mixed-NOCs participation included. This is illustrated in the example below. Remember it is only a sample medal table and does not reflect actual results.

Rank Nation Gold Silver Bronze Total
1  China (CHN) 10 (12) 12 4 34
2  Russia (RUS) 8 10 (11) 12 (14) 32
  1. China won 2 additional gold medals in its participation in mixed-NOCs teams, namely in the pair-up with North Korea in the men's basketball event and its involvement in the Asia 1 team which won the triathlon relay event.
  2. Russia won 1 additional silver medal and 2 additional bronze medals in its participation in mixed-NOCs teams, namely in the pair-up with blabla in blabla and blabla.

— ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 16:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of proposal by ANGCHENRUI Talk♨
:I like this, to an extent. I don't mind doing this for the continental events but would still prefer a separate entry for a Mixed-NOC team for cases like Golding/Vesely in the tennis, where they beat a Russian pair. The silver counts for Russia, so the gold should count for a mixed NOC team rather than counting as X (X+1) and Y (Y+1) for GBR and CZE. 218.186.8.251 (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
To address that, we can add another clause in the footnotes, so that it becomes "... the medals won here are also counted in the Mixed-NOCs' medal count (see above)." ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 16:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I prefer the current (unranked mixed-NOC) solution, partly because it does not need so many footnotes. The explanation of the odd entity is confined to its own page, where a breakdown of medals by continent could be added. It should also include a list of NOCs included in such teams. If the newly proposed solution is chosen how would it affect sorting? 85.167.109.5 (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
My preference would still be to leave mixed-NOC medals out of the totals for individual NOCs, and just include them under the mixed-NOC heading. The page for the mixed-NOC teams will show the nationalities of those who won medals for mixed-NOC teams. David Biddulph (talk) 16:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't mind either way. What I do want is a clear distinction between events comprising only mixed-NOC teams, and events that have both mixed-NOC and single-NOC teams. On that point, would anyone be against adding a footnote to the current tally for the Mixed-NOCs? Something along the lines of: "There have been four [to be changed as other events take place] events at which only mixed-NOCs teams have participated; gold, silver and bronze medals in these events were all awarded to a mixed-NOCs team. The other medals in this tally have been won by a mixed-NOCs team in an event which included teams representing single NOCs." This will allow us to keep the four gold/silver/bronze medals from the archery, equestrian, fencing and triathlon in the tally while at the same time recognising GBR/CZE and HUN/BEL's tennis medals. 218.186.8.251 (talk) 17:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Seconded, but we need to check that all participating teams were mixed-NOC, not just all the medal winners.85.167.109.5 (talk) 17:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Why do we need to worry about that distinction? Why not just list mixed-NOC medallists on the mixed-NOC page, and not worry there about who they were competing against? If anyone wants to see the detail of who beat who in an event they can follow the link to the detail page for that event. David Biddulph (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Why not? The medals won by the two tennis teams were medals against others representing their countries; not their continents. By definition the mixed-NOCs will sweep the medals at the continental events, after all. Strange Passerby (talk) (218.186.8.251 is me not signed in on the normal Wiki; normally I use this account and on the secure server) 17:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
It is not the most important issue for me; it just seems to me that there is a distinction. I think that a breakdown of medals by continent could be included on the mixed-NOC page for the events where the teams are named Europe 3 and Africa 1 etc. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Agree with the comment directly above. I think we will make a quick mention that there were 'pure' mixed-NOCs team events at the Games. See the section below. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to get an overview. Does anyone currently disagree that mixed-NOCs shoud remain in the main medal table? If so, why? Does anyone feel that it should be ranked as if it were representing an NOC? If so, why? If you feel the current situation is preferable, why? The current situation is that it is in the table but not ranked. The rest of the issues being discussed seem more to do with how to best describe the situation by using the pages for the NOCs (e.g. Belgium) and the article on the Mixed-NOCs. These issues is not strictly related to the medal table article and should perhaps be discussed elsewhere. As the NOC-pages of the early Olympics also deal inconsistently with the issue of Mixed team medals and Mixed team participation this is a much broader issue, and perhaps this is not the best area for the continued discussion on how to improve these pages. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 19:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

My answer: I feel the current method is preferable. My reasoning is, firstly, that the medal table is not filled up with notes, secondly, that the athletes being part of a mixed-NOC team do not represent their NOC thus their NOC is not awarded the medal, and finally, regarding ranking, that the pure mixed-NOC events makes this very questionable. Regarding moving the other discussion I think would be wise, but I don't know where to. 85.167.109.5 (talk) 19:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. David Biddulph (talk) 08:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Proposal by Svmich (talk) and subsequent discussion (Closed)
I suggest two things:

First, to display three different medal tables:

  1. Medals, won by single athletes and single-NOC teams (including events with mixed-NOC teams participation) — this table already exists;
  2. Medals, won by athletes within mixed-NOC teams, by NOC of each athlete;
  3. Medals, won by athletes within mixed-NOC teams, by continent represented by mixed-NOC team;

The third table will include all the medals from the second table and also some medals from the first one (won by teams of single-NOC teams during events with mixed-NOC teams participation).

Second, to use either 'Nation' (like in the column title of the medal table), or 'NOC' word (like 'mixed-NOC'), but not both, to refer to the same entity. Svmich (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, I feel that is undesirable. I think a large intricate table with many columns stating whether the medals are from mixed-NOCs or single-NOCs, whether from pure mixed-NOCs events or non-pure mixed-NOCs events, would be better than having three tables. While yes having three tables will show the accreditation well, this can be done just as properly and more simply with one table (with footnotes). ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 12:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
On second thought, the other two tables can be retained, but shouldn't be called "medal tables" in their current function. They can serve specialist interest in that people researching can access the mixed-NOCs data. In this sense, they can be placed on the mixed-NOCs article but not on the medal table article. Their importance will of course be lesser. In fact, I think the current mixed-NOCs article is already doing that. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 12:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem with 'Mixed-NOCs' is that it doesn't refer to an identity: one mixed-NOC team and another mixed-NOC team have different composition and so are not the same. Instead, 'Mixed-NOCs' refer to a type of entities, different from NOC type. It looks very strange inside NOC medal table. I think that taking mixed-NOC team medals into account can be done adequately using separate medal table. Svmich (talk) 12:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

That's why they are not given a ranking, but no reason why they shouldn't be in the table. David Biddulph (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
It's used as a collective term in this case, much like the GDP ranking list I raised earlier, where EU is also on the list but unranked (the combined GDP of all EU nations). Actually Svmich, that is already done in the mixed-NOCs article I pointed out. Readers will definitely not be left out since mixed-NOCs is prominent in the medal table, and there will be footnotes/introductory statements made on it. Even if they only look towards single-NOCs, it will not compromise on its accuracy since the single-NOCs never won the mixed-NOCs medal(s) on its own anyway. All the safeguards are present; hence I think the current point stands. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 13:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
'Mixed-NOCs' doesn't represent any subtotal (contrary to EU GDP in your example), it is rather arbitrary mix of athletes from different countries.
The current medal table serves the sole purpose of NOC comparison - and 'Mixed-NOCs' introduces some confusion into this comparison. Look, it is definitely listed for comparison here, taking its place according to its medal count (even without rank assigned). Why not to show another medal table to the right of the current medal table? And this second table would contain medals of different NOCs, won by athletes within mixed-NOC teams. Mixed-NOC competitions shouldn't be considered somewhat less relevant, so this table is also a relevant one. It is separated just because there's no valid reason to combine them together within NOC medal table, since it would compromise the purpose of NOC comparison. Svmich (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
So in your proposed new table, for the fencing do you show 5 gold for ITA and 1 for RUS ? No, let's leave it as it is. Show Mixed-NOC in the existing table, unranked, and if you want to see who was in the medal-winning teams, follow the link. David Biddulph (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, that's perhaps overkill. But having 'Mixed NOCs' listed in the table comparing NOCs is clearly inadequate. It simply doesn't serve the purpose of NOCs comparison. Svmich (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
If you want to compare only NOCs, is it very difficult for you to ignore the entries in the table for Mixed-NOC and Kuwait? David Biddulph (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion on the use of terms 'nation' vs 'NOC', Kuwait example (Ended)
As for Kuwait, I would totally switch from considering NOCs to considering nations (even when their NOC is suspended for some reason) — according to the column title. Svmich (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I don't get what you mean. Please don't tell me there's a problem with Kuwait's listing. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
It's completely Ok. I mean that we should probably say 'nation', just like in the column title, rather than 'NOC'. In case of Kuwait, the NOC is suspended, so Kuwait in the table means nation, rather than NOC. Svmich (talk) 15:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I have carefully reworded the footnote as well as the lead to reflect this. Past practices on Olympics medal tables hold it that "NOC" should be used instead of "nation". See this FL as an example. Shall we keep it at status quo - readers will know what is meant anyway. Making changes would also involve changing what was done in past Olympic articles; too much red tape that we certainly don't want at this point in time. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Once again: the medal table serves the sole purpose of NOC comparison. And 'Mixed-NOCs' makes a reader ask Why is this entire type of entities (not a single entity) was listed in this table, in sorting order? Just in order for me to ignore it when comparing NOCs (pursuing the sole purpose of the table)? David, I see the simple and clear answer to the problem: to move 'Mixed NOCs' medals outside the table, that's it. Svmich (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
As a quick note, one problem with this is that the total medal count would be out of sync. That is a greater problem in itself. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Comparison of NOCs should not include mixed-NOCs to begin with. Simply put, as we've mentioned earlier, when athletes are in their mixed-NOCs teams, they do not represent their NOCs but merely participated because of it. I say, go ahead, create the tables, but don't place them in the medal table article. Their actual purpose would be served only in the mixed-NOCs article. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather have the mixed-NOCs listed (and ranked) with 1 gold, 0 silvers, 1 bronze than not have it listed at all. So either the status quo, or treat the mixed NOCs like a ZZX team. Strange Passerby (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Remember that the IOC nor the SYOGOC is publishing the medal tally! The purpose is not merely limited to inter-NOC comparison. We're serving a form of specialist interest here (actually general interest) too. Just remember to take note. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Making the table serve this 'extended' purpose is counterintuitive. Why are you trying to avoid the simple solution of moving 'Mixed-NOCs' medals outside the table? Svmich (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The problem lies in the fact that the medal table, the primary listing of medals, has to be in sync with the total number of medals awarded. Removing mixed-NOCs medals would cause it to be out of sync. Besides, it would show that no medals were won by the mixed-NOCs teams, which is not the case. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 16:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
What do you mean by out of sync? It's Ok to have different numbers for gold, silver and bronze in the medal table, and their totals should still contain the sum inside the columns. Medals for Mixed-NOC teams would still be shown — but right outside the table. Svmich (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I mean that the total number of medals would not equal the total number of medals actually given out. There are 184 silver medals given out in total. If mixed-NOCs sweep say 14 of these silver medals, and they are not mentioned in the list, the total number of medals awarded would read 170. Current solution: Make mention as to what mixed-NOCs is all about in the medal table article. And on the mixed-NOCs table, which readers will be prompted to access if they want further to know more, we will give a breakdown on all the medals won by mixed-NOCs, which nations were in mixed-NOCs, how many athletes, how many pure-mixed-NOCs events and any other statistics. Once again, the breakdown will be on the mixed-NOCs articles but not on the medal table article. Is there a problem with keeping mixed-NOCs in the table? If there is, why propose to change status quo when it's doing well. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 06:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Vote on non-addition of mixed-NOCs medals in single-NOCs' medal counts

I think that the logical progression now would be to proceed to voting on the non-addition of mixed-NOCs medals in single-NOCs' medal counts. Or in simplespeak, let's not include the medals won in mixed-NOCs in the medal counts of any single NOC. Essentially, all medals won by mixed-NOCs, whether in pure mixed-NOCs team events or not, would be counted under the collective label called "Mixed-NOCs" as it already stands. I know that in the pure events, the medals will inevitably still be won by mixed-NOCs teams, but still the practice stands since it will not affect the single-NOCs' results or anyting.

This is a black-and-white area, so neutral shouldn't be an option. If you think another way of accreditation works, just go under Oppose. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 08:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Votes made
Support
  1. I know it sounds silly to be doing this, but I agree with general consensus so far on the topic and am in support. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 08:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  2. The inclusion of mixed-NOCs will artificially dilute the count of medals in the NOC Medal table. I am happy to recognise that the individual won a medal as a medalist; but in a NOC Medal table, they are, for clarity and transparency accounted for under a single mixed-NOC entry. The idea of mixed-NOC is to promote and foster friendship between participants (removing the nationalistic boundaries), hence assigning mixed-NOC medals to a National Medal table seems to defeat the ideal proposed.GreenB.live (talk) 10:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  3. Support. Leave as is. David Biddulph (talk) 13:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  4. Support. --Mohsen1248 (talk) 14:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  5. Support. 85.167.109.50 (talk) 15:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. I oppose. Dont need to explain why because I have told it many times before. For me, its a way of recognizing a medal won by the individual. Well, if support wins, then i'll support it too. Uhmm, well having a mixed NOC team medal tally in the emdal table is a good idea but its like just counting the number of events which are mixed NOC competition. If oppose loses, no worriesKuyacomeback (talk) 13:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I would like to comment here since we can't afford to keep pushing on different points and not reach a consensus. Kuyacomeback, I must say that it actually doesn't recognise the individual's achievement, just his or her NOC's. In that sense, counting it under the NOC would be no different from counting under Mixed-NOCs. Yes, we admit that the current practice is "like just counting the number of events which are mixed NOC competition" – just that there is nothing principally or practically wrong with it. I hope readers will truly grasp the crux. Is that fair enough kuyacomeback? Thanks, ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 13:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok fine! If thats what you think... My opinion is my opinion, you cant change it in anyway, dont worry, i dont disturb/destroy/edit/change/modify/challenge your medal tally starting yesterday... you are asking viewers/editors to vote but you try to oppose them just like this... for me, thatsillogical... anyway, im not angry... its alrightKuyacomeback (talk) 14:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Kuyacomeback, please don't feel hurt or anything - none of us here want to do that. I'm not opposing your vote, I just want to point out where I see it is not substantative enough. I do get your point on individual recognition; but it might not apply in this context. I earnestly hope to arrive at an appropriate and non-disputative conclusion. Best, ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 14:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Conclusion

With an overwhelming majority, the motion for the non-addition of mixed-NOCs medals in single-NOCs' medal counts is passed. ANGCHENRUI Talk♨ 15:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2010_Summer_Youth_Olympics_medal_table/Archive_1&oldid=862215493"