Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

Casualties in the infobox

The infobox says tens of thousands at a minimum. This should be changed to hundreds of thousands. The US estimates 600K Russian casualties alone. Fryedk (talk) 13:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

North Korean troops

With the formation of Buryat battalions, I think it's time to consider whether or not North Korea is considered to be a participant in the war. 92.11.10.240 (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree, i believe it’s time to add North Korea as official participants. Gonzafer001 (talk) 01:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/23/politics/lloyd-austin-north-korea-troops-russia?cid=ios_app

Agreed, many news outlets are reporting this now 2600:1014:A108:6C6C:D53D:48FF:AB07:DF45 (talk) 11:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

NOt that they are seeimg combat. Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@92.11.10.240 I would say yes, but are they organic KPA units fighting alongside Russian units, or are they soldiers acting as augmentees in Russian units?

Also, do we have confirmation of this? Either with proof of captured NK soldiers, or announcements from KCNA stating that units are "volunteering" with Russia?

That's what needs to be answered to ensure an accurate change of NK acting as active participants. Aridantassadar (talk) 01:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's try to have a centralised discussion here; there is already one about this issue at Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#north korea should be listed as an ally of russia, and as this is the larger-scope article, any change in belligerence is going to happen in the 2022-present article first. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it should definatley be considared as a possibility, but we do not yet have any formal statements from the North Korean government. Some reports are saying thousands of troops fighting on the frontlines, while others are just saying a couple being sent to man missle batterys. We should wait for further developments before possibly exaggerating the extent of North Korea's involvment in th war. Dareldrem (talk) 04:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

When an RS actually says they are a combatant we can, they have top say it, not imply it. Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Note: The special Buryat battalion is a formation operating under the flag of the Russian Federation. The troops are composed of North Korean citizens, but they are not operating under the auspices of the North Korean government. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

And what is the source for that statement? XavierGreen (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/russian-army-forms-special-buryat-battalion-1728996935.html Slatersteven (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

And everyone else that has reported on it. It's a formation of the 11th separate airborne assault brigade of the Russian Armed Forces.1 It's curious that one of the few established facts about it, is the statement that gets questioned. Why does nothing else need a source in this whole discussion? Mr rnddude (talk) 14:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mr rnddude and until North Korean forces are fighting under their own flag, then they are just a supplier and not an "active participant", even though in all intents and purposes they are. Aridantassadar (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to provide a condensed summary about the special Buryat battalion (SBB) that South Korean and Ukrainian intelligence, reliable news sources, and lastly Wikipedians are dealing with. I've surveyed about a dozen sources – in collaboration with other editors – in the parallel discussion linked by Flemmish Nietzsche, such that this is drawn from that analysis.

The 'special Buryat battalion' is a formation of the armed forces of the Russian Federation composed of an estimated 3,000 North Korean either citizens or troops, depending on the source consulted. They are in Sosnovyy Bor, Buryatia receiving equipment and training. That puts them about 4,500km / 2,800mi from Ukraine. They are not presently deployed in the conflict, and are not expected to become active until the end of this year. Ukraine has also indicated that they have not yet encountered any active North Korean combatants. Once activated, intelligence sources are unclear on how they will be deployed, but it's possible that they'll be providing relief support in the Kursk region, particularly around the Kursk salient, thus freeing up Russian resources inside Ukraine. That's assuming that the battalion will be deployed in combat, instead of in a logistical role which is another possibility. Russia is denying practically all allegations. I am, however, unaware of any statements from North Korea.

That's the highly condensed version, see the linked sources for greater detail and depth. The most detailed accounts are in The Washington Post, Kyiv Post (two sources), and RBC Ukraine.

When can we reasonably list North Korea as a belligerent? I will borrow the wording employed by Cinderella157 in answering the same question: [w]hen there is a consensus in good quality secondary sources in their own voice that North Korea is a belligerent, then we might make the same statement in a Wiki voice in the infobox. This standard abides Wikipedia policies. Mr rnddude (talk) 19:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

How about now: We now have official confirmation of the United States with the official words of belligerence/participants of North Korea. this comes from secretary, Lloyd Austin directly from him in a press conference. Gonzafer001 (talk) 16:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The situation you described would mean that North Korean forces are Auxiliaries, which under international law are foreign or allied troops in the service of a nation at war. In essence, a nation lending its military personnel to another. For infoboxes on such situations, the nation providing the auxiliary force should be bulleted under the principal belligerent to whom they are lending their troops. See for example how Hesse-Kassel is treated in the American Revolutionary War infobox. Alternatively, if all we have are Ukrainian allegations, than the infobox can list North Korea as a belligerent and say (Alleged by Ukraine) next to it, just how russia was listed in the Donbas War infobox early on in that conflict.XavierGreen (talk) 20:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Update to this: South Korean Intelligence Community seems to confirm that North Korea is supplying troops. Source is YNA:

https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241018006855315?section=nk/nk 73.62.249.156 (talk) 11:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There is also footage of NK troops being requisitioned their equipment https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/dOrwGc5UvF 142.189.77.27 (talk) 17:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

reliable enough for use https://kyivindependent.com/north-korean-soldiers-reportedly-equipped-at-russian-military-camp-video-shows/ LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 00:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

With the video released today I think this should go ahead with a footnote. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 00:43, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This should have been posted the moment it was announced by Ukraine in October 17. 2600:6C50:637F:8A55:49E:5F7F:478C:C15A (talk) 18:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Buryatia is a Russian Republic not an independent state of Russia. The situation with North Korea is developing rapidly as we speak but it is still developing, we have yet to see whether NK soldiers will be incorporated into Russian units(doubtfully), or if they will have their own battalion. There IS a recording, however, of Russian soldiers complaining about NKs getting supplies, and they frequently referred to the NK troops in Russia as the "K-Battalion". Again it's a developing situation and we will see events unfold in the next few days and the name "K-Battalion" likely suggests it's some kind of a placeholder or slang name coined by Russian troops, but given this information as well as other factors such as the fact that the NK troops will likely speak very bad Russian if any at all, suggests they will have their own battalion, but we will just have to wait and see. Regardless, North Korea is still providing manpower and other support to Russia so they should probably be listed in the belligerents section. CrazyFruitBat911 (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Numbers vary from 10 to 13,000 (basing on BBC, RAI, DW (in several languages), France 24, Freedom, RFE/RL, etc. + ~10-20, mail feeds (25+ sources)), depends on source/intention/command line, etc. ... ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 18:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Reminds me a song, 'I Want to Break Free' (Queen) Performed In North Korea... ;-) ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 18:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Still waiting for a source that says they are in combat. Slatersteven (talk) 18:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Srry, have been (and am) busy... ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

South Korea says ... are in Russia; North Korea sends ... to support Putin's war — as you can see, these sources are not saying in their own voice that the North Korean troops are yet on the frontline (i.e. in combat). Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 20:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

My "favourite" from the above-cited WP article is The troops were issued Russian uniforms, weapons and IDs, Seoul said, and assigned to units composed of Siberian soldiers to try to disguise them as Russians rather than North Koreans. ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I would question whether it matters whether or not they are directly involved in combat. The fact they are there is contributing directly to Russia's combat strength because they will presumably free up Russian troops from other areas to be redeployed to the frontline with Ukraine. However at this moment in time the nature of the involvement of North Korean troops seems more akin to a kind of mercenary deployment, they are auxiliaries, in the guise of troops loaned by one state to another state, a practise common in the early modern era of European warfare. Rather than it being a state action against another. There is no clear evidence that NK is acting directly against the state of Ukraine, it has rather conducted a transaction with Russia. Therefore I don't think NK should be considered a belligerent yet Anvib (talk) 00:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I have issues with this line of reasoning. If we apply your logic further, we could argue that we cannot call this a war because war has not been declared by either side, something we can all agree is beyond nonsensical. Like with all things on Wikipedia, a line has to be drawn somewhere, and with the news coming today that NATO confirms the presence of regular KPA troops on the frontlines, I think we have found this line and it is time to add North Korea as an official belligerent in this conflict. With an asterisk if you want, but pretending like they are not in this is absurd. I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of pages about major wars where some belligerents' unclear engagement is nonetheless expressed in the infobox. SwissTHX11384EB (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

... and with the news coming today that NATO confirms the presence of regular KPA troops on the frontlines ... - Source? Mr rnddude (talk) 01:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

We have to wait for three days, https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-north-korean-soldiers-putin-zelensky-latest-news-b2636015.html, for them to be deployed. Then we can add them if they are deployed. Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

---

Billal Rahman AND Michael D. Carroll. North Korea Sends 10,000 Troops to Russia: Pentagon.
"North Korean Troops Already Deployed to Fight Ukraine, NATO Confirms"
 ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Citations

Citations
Notes References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2024

Add north korea to the russian side as it has entered the war 2A0A:EF40:3B4:801:695F:C7E5:1858:45BB (talk) 15:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. TylerBurden (talk) 18:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Mate the North Koreans are balls deep in Ukraine at this point

Time to stop messing about and add them to the battle box. 147.9.2.76 (talk) 19:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

agree, there's video, there's international recognition that they are involved in some way with troops, best to add them and clarify current status in a foot note LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 00:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

100% agree I don’t know why the legacy people here on the Wikipedia are so keen on keeping this article frozen in time. North Korea should’ve been added as a participant days ago. they already have 12,000 troops in the country. Gonzafer001 (talk) 06:38, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, there was a lot of pushing to add NATO or NATO countries to supporting Ukraine, now that the reality is materializing of Russia being the one supported the same eagerness may not be present for one reason or another. Be patient and wait for the necessary sources and eventually the fact will be indisputable. TylerBurden (talk) 11:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

When RS actually say (in their voice) North Korea is a combatant so can we. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

agreed. get them on the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.115.111.215 (talk) 02:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2024 (2)

North korea is officialy directly involved MM2K5 (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 19:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Kelly Ng. N Korea sends troops to fight with Russia: Seoul. BBC News. 18 October 2024.  ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

That does not make it official it is wholly attributed to Sk intel agency. Slatersteven (talk) 20:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep. „However, some military experts believe the Russian military units will have difficulties incorporating North Korean troops into their frontlines. // Apart from the language barrier, the North Korean army has no recent experience of combat operations, they said.“ cited from the ref above. Apparently, (a) war(s) is (are) in the process of happening..., one can only add unpaid(?) content ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

The Ukrainian Foreign Legion welcomes soldiers from over 50 countries around the world

Apparently participants  ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 20:35, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

It isn't entirely clear what you mean by apparently participants. If you mean that the Ukrainian Foreign Legion (ILDU) is participating in the conflict, yes of course. If you mean that the nations whose citizens form the foreign legion are participating as party to the conflict, then no. The ILDU is composed of volunteers. They are not personnel sent by their respective nations. Mr rnddude (talk) 20:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

NO. To arm and fund a side does not make them participants or even a belligerent in the war. This is common knowledge and has already been discussed. If one of those countries decides to get directly involved and sends their own troops in to invade Russia/Donbas then we would do it. As for the Foreign Legion, the soldiers are sanctioned by and paid for by Ukraine. They are loyal to Ukraine. In every war in human history, every side gets volunteers from other countries. Many Prussians volunteered to fight for America in the Revolution. Does that mean the nation of Prussia fought in the war? NO. So don't be biased either. Neptino (talk) 01:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Ukrainian war crimes

Why is there only one paragraph on Ukrainian war crimes? If I remember correctly there was a report about Ukrainian soldiers taking shelter in a hospital and that report was taken back cause the west criticised that report.

I'll look for that report to see if it can be used here. Cause as of now the war crimes section gives undue weightage to Russian war crimes. DataCrusade1999 (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

When one side has committed the vast majority of war crimes, WP:RS tend to reflect that which in turn leads to WP:DUE weight reflecting that. That's how WP:NPOV works. If you want to add claims about Ukrainian war crimes, you will need to demonstrate that they have been sufficiently covered in RS to give them weight on an article about the war in general and not specifically war crimes. TylerBurden (talk) 10:57, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

korean troops in ukraine

Add korean troops as russian suppporters 83.24.125.113 (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Please see every other thread about this. Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Add countries helping Ukraine to the list (more than 50 countries)

. 37.139.214.93 (talk) 05:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

No. This has already been discussed before; a list of military suppliers of Ukraine is already linked to in the infobox, and stating countries who support the main belligerent(s) in the infobox is deprecated with exception to Belarus. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 05:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

NO. To arm and fund a side does not make them participants or even a belligerent in the war. This is common knowledge and has already been discussed. If one of those countries decides to get directly involved and sends their own troops in to invade Russia/Donbas then we would do it. Neptino (talk) 01:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

North Korea

since it's been proven that North Korea is fighting directly in the war with their own units, commanded by North Korean officers in coordination with Russia, why are they not listed as a belligerent yet? Seems like a huge mistake not to add it yet on this page. Zelensky has said he believes there are over 10,000 there now with another 12,000 soon to arrive. Russia also has a treaty with North Korea that mimics NATOs article 5, attack on one is an attack on all. When Ukraine invaded Kursk, North Korea honored their obligations. To not have it edited yet for this is really disingenuous to Wikipedia readers especially after all the sources confirmed it, government and private intelligence. Neptino (talk) 00:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

See threads 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 already on this, and the many others at Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine; if you have sources confirm[ing] that North Korea is fighting directly in the war with their own units, commanded by North Korean officers, then please show them at the main discussion (Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#north korea should be listed as an ally of russia). If you have found sources directly stating that North Korea is a belligerent or is a party/participant to/in the conflict, that would be even better. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

NATO confirms North Korea is engaged in a frontline area: https://www.politico.eu/article/north-korean-troops-are-now-in-kursk-to-help-russia-nato-confirms/ LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 17:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Mods of this article have it stuck in time, they won’t allow it. Hundreds have already tried, even if you posted "NATO Confirms", the mods here are still for whatever reason extremely reluctant, and they are doing an extreme disservice to the community, it’s stuck in a Wikipedia-bureaucratical time freeze. Gonzafer001 (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Mods? There are editors and administrators, not mods. Slatersteven (talk)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2024

Add North Korea into it due to the recent involvement 2600:6C46:4500:E91:1486:78B0:8232:3CE3 (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Read the talk page before asking for a change. It's under discussion. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

US Secretary officially labels, North Korea as belligerents/participants

We now have official confirmation from the United States with the official words of belligerents/participants of North Korea. this comes from secretary, Lloyd Austin directly from him in a press conference. Gonzafer001 (talk) 16:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

We are already discussing this. Slatersteven (talk)

Gonzafer001, how did you not look to see the five threads that were opened about this already before you decided to start this one? Display name 99 (talk) 02:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 October 2024

Due to the fact that North Korean Troops have now been confirmed on the front line in Russia fighting against Ukrainian forces, I request that North Korea should be added as a belligerent on the Russian side, which would make sense considering they have now entered the Russo Ukrainian war on the Russian side. While there have not been any reports of North Korean Troops in Ukraine, confirmation of them fighting in the Kursk oblast in Russia against Ukrainian forces would still make them a belligerent on the Russian side. Here are a couple of sources confirming the following, although with this being relatively new information, in days or even hours time there will likely be plenty more, but for now it has been confirmed:

https://www.politico.eu/article/north-korea-troops-russia-training-grounds-military-defense-kremlin-ukraine/

https://kyivindependent.com/first-north-korean-troops-deployed-to-front-line-in-kursk-oblast-ukraines-military-intelligence-says/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-intelligence-agency-says-north-korean-units-already-kursk-region-2024-10-24/

If the current evidence is not sufficient, I understand, and can try again once there are more sources confirming this information, with even more extensive evidence. Avis1089 (talk) 04:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I did not see the above threads that have already been started on this topic. You may disregard this specific one. Avis1089 (talk) 04:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - no consensus (yet). Cinderella157 (talk) 08:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2024

United states have confirmed North Korean troops have entered the conflict in support of Russia, this extends and links the Korean war into the Ukraine - Russian conflict. Supported by North Korean troops are in Russia, defense secretary says Also Evidence of North Korean troops in Russia, Defense Secretary Austin says

South Korea in addition have offered or may send weapons to Ukraine, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiqEnuMnfrU&t=10s&pp=ygUmU291dGgga29yZWEgc2VuZGluZyB3ZWFwb25zIHRvIFVrcmFpbmU%3D Russia-North Korea defense treaty: Will South Korea send weapons to Ukraine in response? PilotBartram (talk) 06:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done See the various threads above. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)