Talk:2017 in South Korean music

Please cite sources.

Hi, first of all, thank you to all who help to improve this page, I'm sure many appreciate it. However, I'd like to request that people cite their sources when adding new information, this just helps other people to know what's written is correct information and not hear-say.

Thank you, Alexanderlee (talk) 14:44, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Lay's releases

Out of curiosity, should Lay's releases really be listed here? (Or in 2016 in South Korean music, and him being listed as a debuting soloist? Technically, they're Chinese releases not South Korean and should be listed on the Chinese music article and not this one? Alexanderlee (talk) 05:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, albums and singles meant for the China market should not be listed here. Evaders99 (talk) 05:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent Changes

I don't really know why so much has been taken away like columns of tables and the departures and joining sections. I don't understand why you would take away information. You have also take away lesser known people that could definitely benefit with being mentioned. Just wondering... (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello. These changes have been made because these articles are a mess and have needed cleaning up for a long time.

• Title tracks, notes and label sections have been removed because these are not needed - 'labels' is only what company the artist is signed to, which can be seen at the artists article.
• Departing and joining sections have been removed because they are also not needed - wikipedia is not a directory to list everything that happens within the K-pop world.
• 'lesser known people' have been removed because they do not have their own article (presumably because they do not meet notability requirements) which means they are not eligible for inclusion.

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Korea/Popular_culture#XXXX_in_South_Korean_Music for further information. Alexanderlee (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Clearly wikipedia is useless now, we have practically no information on whatsoever, what's the point of coming on wikipedia so? Isn't it and encyclopedia of EVERYTHING... — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fan website dedicated to everything that happens within K-pop. Countless minor releases and non-notable information does not belong in an encyclopedia. Alexanderlee (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, of course only kpop fans read this article, it is about k-pop. Remove the fans and you will only have 1 access to this page per month that is a guy clicking on "Random Article" button. Why remove the content that made the page relevant to the only users that visit it? If you want useless articles, might as well delete them. The more information the better, that is why articles on Wikipedia with lots of useful information gets the star of Featured Article. You just removed lots of useful information just because you wanted, you say it is to make it clear, but it really is looking like it was just because you were hating on K-pop fans. 221.161.111.33 (talk) 16:28, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Don’t be rediculous, nobody is “hating” on anyone, we’re all fans or we wouldn’t be editing the articles in the first place. That being said, Wikipedia is not FOR fans. It is not here to list every minor detail that isn’t needed. You don’t know if it’s a studio album or an EP or the title, typically known before you’d come to this article anyway? There’s a magical thing called “google”. Alexanderlee (talk) 16:33, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

So you are telling everyone here to stop using Wikipedia and Google information. 114.70.7.180 (talk) 11:25, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree, these changes really made the article irrelevant. --Rimbob98 (talk) 09:52, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing this page

You are indiscriminately destroying too much information. It is fine if you want to clear up these articles. It is not fine if the only way you can do this is to practically wipe the whole thing clean. For example, you can't even see Twice's Likey anymore. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then yeah, you probably shouldn't be editing this article. At all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paerarru (talk • contribs) 03:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

”Likey” is from the album “Twicetageam” which is listed in the article. As previously stated, Wikipedia is not a directory for fans to see countless releases that are not notable. For example, see 2017 in American music. That article is much cleaner and better put together than what these articles previously were. Removing irrelevant information that is not notable, or necessary, is not vandalism. Alexanderlee (talk) 04:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Cleaner for you, not for people that were using the article for searching a lot of information. And you just made the article useless to all this people because YOU think it is more clear this way. I don't think this page is clear neither the american one. If I am searching for SOUTH KOREAN MUSIC, I am searching for songs that I found in the radio, or songs I found in the internet, I am searching for new songs that maybe are unknown. No one cares about the album title, no one knows about it except real fans. The page now is garbage, and you made it this way just because you wanted. It is total vandalism. If you didn't like the page just don't use it, lots of people are complaining you changed it. You did this to help, but it didn't help in anyway, just put all the information back. 221.161.111.33 (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

”nobody cares about the album title” except, THAT is the relevant information, not a single track. Like I said to another comment, there’s a magical thing called “google”. Alexanderlee (talk) 16:59, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

"Just google it"? So you are basically telling us: "Stop using Wikipedia and Google for your information"?. Nice! You are doing a great job helping the site that already was asking for donations. If removing information for people to stop using the site is not vandalizing, I don't know what it is. Like everyone is telling here in the talk page, you are NOT the one who decides what is relevant and what is not. I don't know why they didn't ban you and revert the article yet. 114.70.7.180 (talk) 11:22, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

no, not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying you can google the information such as the title track of an album, or the countless new groups that aren’t listed because they aren’t notable. Or as another editor suggested, you can look on websites such as Kpopinfo101, which have a lot more information and are updated weekly I believe. Never once did I say don’t use Wikipedia, so don’t twist my words.:) ...but Wikipedia is not the place for every single detail of the kpop world. I’ve also never claimed to be the person who decides what is notable and what is not, but if a group was notable they would have their own article, and if you read the discussion on the Popular Culture in Korea web portal thing, you’d see that I was not the first editor to suggest removal of singles, and also was not the only editor involved in making decisions. Alexanderlee (talk) 11:49, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

The point is that you will go to the article of the artist and its listed release and read about the new album and title track there or at the discography. Abdotorg (talk) 12:08, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Digital Singles

Are digital singles being removed from this list? If so this should definitely change and I believe this is a huge mistake. The Korean music industry is much different from the American music industry. There is a much greater focus on singles and mini-albums than full-length albums. Many songs released in South Korea are released as single-only, never to be collected into full-length albums. And some of these releases are the most successful and popular releases of the year. They are definitely noteworthy, much more so than some of the full-length albums currently on this list. You should also be aware that some Korean groups go their entire career with only releasing digital singles. And these are popular groups that have been around for years and are definitely worthy of note. I strongly believe that trying to mimic the wiki page for 2017 American music releases, as some editors seem to be doing, is a huge mistake, because these are two completely different industries that have polar opposite methods of approach for releasing music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:4400:A3E0:59B9:D667:BF3:506F (talk) 09:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

could you give a few examples of these groups who only release singles?

Also, if you take a look at 2017 in music I don’t think you’ll find singles listed there either. Alexanderlee (talk) 11:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I believe digital singles should be re-inserted into this Wikipedia page because, as stated above, the South Korean music industry operates in a different manner to the Western music industry (and by extension, the global music industry). The South Korean music industry's focus on distributing msuic in the form of digital singles and mini-albums would best be respresented by a complete aggregation of releases, not discriminating based on their release type.

The editor, by referring to other Wikipedia pages, fails to realize there does not exist a set of guidelines that determines what should definitively be included or excluded from a Wikipedia page about music releases.

Therefore, I ask that this article be returned to its past state, where singles, OSTs, mini-albums, full albums, are all included. Thank you. 137.154.252.201 (talk) 06:09, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Regarding recent edits

Could please take a look at the bold paragraph at the bottom of Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Korea/Popular_culture#XXXX_in_South_Korean_Music. Thank you. Alexanderlee (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Seriously?

I understand your opinion on making the page cleaner but seriously? It's ok to leave out the company information but leaving out digital singles and releases from not-well known artists? Sorry but that's just stupid.Because not any kpop fan can know where they get all their information on song releases from.Honestly me either. And those wikipedia pages were always a good source for all korean music up till now.And there may be artists who are not well known but have really good songs depending on individual taste of music. And same goes to the digital singles.Sorry, but it just enrages me, who's stupid idea it was!? (Sorry). Just delete the whole page then. It's the same.... IMhating (talk) 01:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

As previously stated, multiple times, Wikipedia is not a directory for kpop fans. Wikipedia is not a fan website, and not here to list everything that is released and every artists releases. If a kpop fan can’t find new releases on Wikipedia, then that’s too bad - that is not (and never has been) the point of any article on Wikipedia. Alexanderlee (talk) 00:49, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Disappointing

I really dislike the changes made to this article. I used to visit this page practically every day, it was incredibly helpful and a wonderful 1 stop shop for all the information I needed regarding the Korean music scene. Now It's incredibly frustrating to use. I really miss knowing what kind of release something is. For example, let's take Astro's most recent release Dream part.02. Is it an EP? A full album? Their Debut? I don't know anymore! I cannot quickly see what full albums were released in a particular month anymore. It's incredibly time consuming to have to click the link to each artist's page and then have to scroll around to figure out that Dream part.02 is their 5th EP, Twicetagram is Twice's 1st full length album, and Max & Match is the repackage for Odd Eye circle, when it used to be perfectly summarized here. Minah and Jeon Soyeon's upcoming releases aren't even listed on their pages so who knows what kind of release they are. I also found a lot of use with listing out the title tracks, again because it was really handy to have everything summarized on one page (thought I do agree taking out the released date is fine since most are released with the album and it does clutter the chart a lot).

I don't like taking out the digital singles as well, but I can see how it does clean up the article and I can understand the argument that this page is intended to be a summary, not a list of every single release. But please, don't take away the useful information from the albums that are supposed to be here. This is supposed to be the 2017 in South Korean music article, it should be a summary so people don't have to go to every individual artists page in order to find information quickly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.33.79 (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I second this. There are artists out there being neglected because they're not considered popular or don't have a page. Through this page and the dedicated hard work of fans who know who's out there, there are groups getting some recognition. I split my time working for different K-Pop magazines and websites, and even we don't know everyone! The Wikipedia source has helped and has led us to different up-and-coming artists we've had opportunities to interview, promote, and invite to small shows. Wikipedia is supposed to be a go-to for information, but you're deliberately taking away information that not only helps people who use this source for fun, but those of us who use it for work purposes also. Do the pages need cleaned up? Sure! For example, group departures and additions aren't necessary. But there's cleaning up and there's taking too much away. You're in the latter territory now, especially with releases. Just because there are groups that lack pages and information, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be listed/eliminated in the release sections. unsigned — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeinaGrace (talk • contribs) 20:27, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

That’s the point though. That is using Wikipedia as a directory to find every single non-notable release and artist, and that is not what an encyclopaedia is for. Alexanderlee (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Why tf are you the one who gets to decide what's relevant enough to be listed? Everyone knows what TWICE, SNSD, BTS, etc. releases, they're the big groups for a reason. If anything, they're the ones kpop fans don't need a resource to reference. If kpop fans are maintaining the site, then why tf are you so bitter about kpop fans having a list to look at? It's not like kpop fans are stealing your fucking stapler for something unimportant and you can't use it now. Wiki pages are endlessly easy to create. 174.30.105.7 (talk) 03:04, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

For real, why does one person get to decide what's useful information? There are clearly many people who think too much has been taken away, so some sort of compromise should be in order. This isn't just one person's personal list, so even if one person thinks something is unnecessary if there are many who do want that information included that should be considered. An encyclopedia is supposed to be a collection of information that provides summaries, but who gets to decide what qualifies as a summary? I would propose including digital singles and releases from smaller artists that won't have their own separate pages as well as a description of the kind of release (5th mini album or debut digital single for example) but excluding collaborations such as SM station and singles that will be complied into a full album later such as the every day6 project, the title tracks and release dates, and the production company. That way the page will be clearer but still have the information that so many obviously find useful.

^^ This! So much this! ^^LeinaGrace (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

• Recommendation: For all those feeling at a loss; let me turn you towards Kpopinfo114, they make bi-weekly updates of all K-pop releases. Wikipedia is for notable content only. Abdotorg (talk) 14:41, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

At least put in the column with the description of the release so we can know if it's a debut single album or the 1st full album or whatever. Also I would really like the column for the title tracks to be added as well. I feel like that is very pertinent information to a summary of the releases in a particular year. I don't really understand why genre gets to stay but the other descriptors do not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.33.81 (talk) 15:39, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

observation

Has anyone else noticed that the only people getting mad at this article are people obviously using it to find like every detail of what comes out?? Like ho to iTunes or genie or never or something bc I bet they're all on there plus more lol Wikipedia isn't like kpop101 or something like that and I get why it's been changed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.32.218 (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and people are upset because this article was the best source for quickly getting details regarding previous and future releases (which seems fine for a List of X on Wikipedia, imo). The only people who care about it are kpop fans anyway. Doesn't make sense to force a change that the majority of people who use this article are against. "I bet they're all on there plus more" shows you don't even care enough to check lol

More into Digital Releases

I'm an avid user of this page. I get removing the info about companies and the album number but removing lesser known groups/artists and digital singles is not okay. As Wikipedia tries to be an Encyclopedia, this page should include every single release in South Korean music for the past year. It shouldn't mimic any other page and it should highlight everything. The point is not using this page as an update list but as a full list of releases to document 2017 as a year in Korean music. Again, I don't see why you are doing these drastic changes without really seeing the general response and following the Wikipedia ideology. I hope this is taken into consideration and these uncalled for reverts stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudi44 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

you say “following the Wikipedia ideaology” but Wikipedia is not a directory to list EVERY release. See WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Wikipedia isn’t here to list everything that isn’t notable, and frankly, not every release by every group is notable, especially in a list of “ALBUMS released”, and the fact that it can be verified and referenced doesn’t automatically mean it should be included. Alexanderlee (talk) 23:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

You say "Wikipedia isn’t here to list everything that isn’t notable" ... Then why do we get a list of Ben Affleck's dad's part-time jobs yet you won't list Blackpink's "As if it's your last" digital single on this page even though it topped the world charts three months in a row and its video has over 175 million views on youtube alone. Many digital singles are very notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:4400:A3E0:59B9:D667:BF3:506F (talk) 03:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

"Then why do we get a list of Ben Affleck's dad's part-time jobs..." Or the celebrity deaths/notable deaths lists that include people that a mass audience wouldn't know including race horses and random people who had a bit role in a movie from 1956. Those inclusions get to stay for some reason, but heaven forbid we have a list of music released that includes small-market and big-market artists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeinaGrace (talk • contribs) 06:01, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay, after looking at the recent comments above, you guys are right. This page should not be like an encyclopedia where almost EVERY releases are stated. There are WAY more ways to keep update with other K-Pop releases. I guess I'll gonna go back looking at K-Pop Reddit where I always do for more updates. Are we going to do this in other pages as well? I think the "Title" column should stay (without the release date), just suggesting. Meatgrind89 (talk) 10:00, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

I do find it hilarious that this argument is all about just including what's "notable" but Black Pink's As If It's Your Last isn't listed here. One of the most notable releases of the year and yet it's not attached to an album release so it's omitted. This list makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.33.81 (talk) 15:52, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Contested Semi-Protection

I don't think it should be semi-protected. Especially since the news is always changing. What if the users without accounts notice something before we do? I bet you all didn't even know Madtown announced their disbandment a few days ago.-K-popguardian (talk) 16:39, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Its only temporary protection for 14 days, you can request reduce of protection at WP:RFRPL, but no point in doing that since its not permanent. If you'll look at the revision history you would see that IPs were constantly edit warring and disrupting the article, there were about 50 revisions in just 12 hours on 7 November. And this is not a twitter or a kpop update website, no one is going to get hurt if the info wont be included within 5 minutes after the announcement. Snowflake91 (talk) 23:04, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

More like 4 weeks.-K-popguardian (talk) 02:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

absolutely disappointing

maybe the editors should have discussed things with the people who actually frequently use these pages first as to how they can make it better instead of deleting half of the relevant info. many groups and idols actually get exposure being listed here, but removing them bc they aren't notable yet is the exact opposite of helping anyone. only leaving albums from notable artists and not including singles is not a smart move at all, and not including every rookie that debuted in the year is not wise. at the least, put all of the rookies that debuted every year back if you don't have the decency to actually make the page more useful. people use Wikipedia so that they don't have to hunt for things on google, and the editors have defeated its entire purpose with these massive changes. and simply directing people to kpopinfo114 is not a good option considering the entire site didn't update for a solid three months recently due to hiatus. 73.208.12.157 (talk) 01:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

2017 in South Korean music, not 2017 notable album releases in South Korean music

I'm chiming in as a regular visitor to the page that I find it very disappointing that the very interesting and informative (Year) in South Korean music articles have been edited down to the point of being nearly useless. First off the list documented primarily KPOP releases, and did not cover other aspects of South Korean music, such as K-Indie, K-Rock, Trot, etc.. So, the focus is really 2017 in KPOP music, not "notable" album releases. Second, in South Korea, the single is as notable as the album, if not more so. The single has special importance and should be listed. The entertainment companies that manage the KPOP groups place a lot of importance on the promotion of the release. This means developing a single, then developing a music video for online viewing, and developing a live performance with dance choreography and costuming. Like many of the Pacific Rim Asian countries, South Korea still has thriving variety TV shows, and (2016 and 2017 saw the development of web-based variety TV shows), and while concerts are important, successful appearance on the variety shows can be critical to the success of the release. The entertainment companies attempt to place their groups on as many of the variety shows as they can, so they can promote the single. In addition, YouTube/online views and digital downloads have become key metrics, and the focus is on the single, not the album. The vast majority of KPOP groups are the constructs of the entertainment companies that develop them. Artist created groups are rare. KPOP is dominated, at least in terms of revenue by the Big 3, SM, JYP, and YG. But there are a number of successful groups from smaller companies. Listing the entertainment company is critical. In addition, most of those groups are Idol groups, and a lot of attention is paid to the debuts of new groups. The entertainment companies invest a lot of time, money and resources developing Idol groups, and they develop strategies for debuting them. Ignoring the debuts, ignores much of the important activity in KPOP. Deleting the information in the lists deleted much of the information that made the lists historically valuable. After all, what do people remember, "Made" or "Bang, Bang, Bang"?PaulGarlow (talk) 12:16, 16 January 2018 (UTC)