Talk:Kerch Polytechnic College massacre

NPOV

I changed “state television Russia-24...” to “state owned television Russia-24...” as it more accurately reflects the nature of the organization. A television channel owned or funded by a state is not the same as a state television channel.

The former has at least nominal editorial independence from the state, while the latter implies that the station is an extension of the state and its propaganda apparatus itself. User2346 (talk) 02:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

And I've changed it to simply "television channel", since "the state" could mean Russia, Ukraine or Crimea, in this context. Arguably clear enough that we mean Russia, given the name of the channel. In that case, it should also go without saying that Russia runs it (24 hours a day, presumably). InedibleHulk (talk) 03:06, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Do you seriously assume that otherwise, the "state television channel" will not engage in "propaganda" and broadcast government POV? Solaire the knight (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Collelaimed

Someone butchered that word, what was it supposed to be? Nusent 14:59, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Political status of Crimea in the Inbox

Information about the political status of Crimea was deleted from the Infobox today. Why would would we assume all English speakers know the current political status of Crimea when explaining this hardly takes up space in the Inbox. Wikipedia should not place design over information. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I also take offence that some editors are editing this article like the place of the crime is a "natural part of Russia". This is the English language edition of Wikipedia. The English language world sees Crimea as territory that should be administrated by Ukraine. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I am readding the information changing both "de facto" and "de jure" to "disputed" piping to Political status of Crimea. The infobox should not imply Crimea is an independent country, which no one is claiming. De jure depends on which laws are being adhered to, as it may be international consensus but not necessary Wikipedia's, apparently, unless someone wants to establish one. 9³ (talk) 06:46, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

“Wolf grapeshot?”

Perhaps this is a calque for something meaningful in Russian, but it ain’t English. Qwirkle (talk) 19:33, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

• Large size shot designed for hunting wolves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.142.135.22 (talk) 08:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Not in English, no. Grapeshot is large iron shot, stacked together in a particular way, used in cannon. The smallest piece of grape is larger than the bore of the largest shoulderable shotgun.

So, what is this stuff? Diameter? Weight? Pieces of shot per cartridge? Qwirkle (talk) 16:54, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Buckshot load considered (at least back in 20th century) optimal for taking wolves - seven balls per row, 2-3 rows per load, size #3 - #4 in American parlance (usually 6.2 mm in Russian loads for 12 gauge). Confusion arose because in Russian same word "kartech'" covers both shotgun buckshot (but not the birdshot) and cannon grapeshot and canister. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.244.2.79 (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Animal torture

The source for that factoid in the article is hardly trustworthy. It's from an unremarkable outlet whose only source is the family's "former neighbors". This is a current event and thus a lot of media outlets will publish unreliable info. Please review this bit for reliability. 77.234.195.118 (talk) 07:53, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Number of deaths

I've raised it here as an error, as the mainpage has 19 and the article has 21. Which is correct? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:47, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

This BBC article states that the number of deaths is 21 (fifteen students, five teachers, and then the attacker), as does [1] PotentPotables ( talk ) 08:27, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Caption

Photos sometimes do speak for themselves, and when they do, we should let them. Qwirkle (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Daños de la masacre en la Universidad Politécnica de Kerch.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Really?

From the article: " A Telegraph article also noted how the shooting was the latest in half a dozen school attacks in Russia in 2018, although the previous incidents involved knives and traumatic pistols rather than high-powered firearms.[32]" Can anyone explain what a "traumatic pistol" is? Laughable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.109.17.195 (talk) 06:52, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I think they're called non-lethal or less-lethal in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.255.252.129 (talk) 08:09, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

There is no need everybody just report on Wikipedia what the article writes. You can ask the telegraph writer direct if you are so interested. Or you are maybe asking this question to make the more political point (west is behind the attack). Do tell? Waskerton (talk) 08:14, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

It's this thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:04, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Bomb injuries

This article should include information on how many victims were injured from the bomb. 70 people were injured in the attack, that is a very large number. It seems unlikely most of the 70 were injured by gunfire. 158.222.178.138 (talk) 13:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Please go ahead and find that information. WWGB (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I can't, that's why I posted here. The information relating to bomb vs gun injuries is probably easier to find in Russian language articles, so someone who can read Russian would be helpful (I can only read English) 158.222.178.138 (talk) 06:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Information about the bomb needs clarification, the first reports were about the explosion of gas in the canteen. Photos of victims with extensive burns and burnt clothing weighty argument in favor of the authenticity of the first reports and later created legend of the shooting of the young man Roslyakov.АСмуров (talk) 05:14, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The presence of a significant number of firefighters and representatives of the Organization of control of gas equipment at the college also speaks about the explosion of gas and legend about bombs and Strelka Roslyakov.АСмуров (talk) 05:29, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Columbine "Massacre" vs Kerch "Attack"

Kerch shooter scored more fatalities than Columbine Massacre. Why isn't it a Kerch Massacre? --KpoT (talk) 18:44, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME. If you do a quick Google search, you'll find that this is almost universally referred to as an attack, whereas Columbine is often described as a massacre. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:04, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I've just checked and massacre is used in multiple sources. It is also a more appropriate description. Birtig (talk) 11:17, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses

There is a strong media coverage of membership of both the killer and his mother in local community of Jehovah's Witnesses. The sources include frontline Russian media. There were doubts about his own activity in the organization until investigators recovered burned pages of the Bible with his remarks, he burned the book along with all other his personal belongings. There is expert opinion that doomsday cult of Jehovah's Witnesses impacted mental health of the perpetrator. This important information sometimes appears in the article but someone removes it with no explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.142.135.22 (talk) 06:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources that link Jehovah's Witnesses with an inclination to become a mass murderer. Just because the Russian government dislikes the religion does not entitle false links between the church and the attack. We would not be having this discussion if the attacker was a Catholic or a Muslim. Bringing up the issue of his religion, when it is not shown to have any relevance, is nothing more than synthesis. The onus is on inclusionists to demonstrate that the perp's religion was a causal factor in the attack, otherwise it is irrelevant. Let's see what others think. WWGB (talk) 07:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Their activity in Jehovah's Witnesses resulted in loss of social environment and social skills of the perpetrator, justified abuses by his mother and negatively impacted his mental health with doomsday cult, according to Prof. Dvorkin. These three - emotional deprivation, family violence and mental instability - are strongest contributors to what had happened.--91.142.135.25 (talk) 09:53, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Dvorkin has been exposed as an Orthodox Christian anti-cult activist who lacks academic credentials as a religion specialist. His opinion in this matter has no credibility. WWGB (talk) 10:42, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

His opinion on Jehovah's Witnesses corresponds well with the decision of [the Supreme Court of Russia http://legalacts.ru/sud/reshenie-verkhovnogo-suda-rf-ot-20042017-n-akpi17-238/]. That's why we would not be having this discussion if the attacker was a Catholic or a Muslim, but he was a member of the destructive cult.--91.142.135.25 (talk) 11:51, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

WWGB is absolutely correct that there's no causal relationship between membership in Jehovah's Witnesses and becoming a mass murderer (except perhaps by the first mechanism the IP mentioned, which is common to all social outcasts and not just Witnesses), and it would be irresponsible to assert in Wikipedia's voice that there is a relationship just because the Russian Supreme Court says so. Nevertheless, if a number of Russian sources are saying this, it may be fitting for Wikipedia's voice to state that Russian sources are making those accusations. That, before we can do that, another source would need to report that Russian sources are saying that. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:05, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Obviously, the fact that Russian sources, and official ones, are taking this tack should be included. Obviously, the article should report the statements, not endorse them. Qwirkle (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

• The claim that only official or state-run sources report about his mother belonging to this sect is straight up a lie. Meduza's been reporting on it too (1), for example, without any referneces to the official media. And Meduza is an explicitly oppositionary news website. Openlydialectic (talk) 04:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

This claim seems to exist only in your own writing, @Openlydialectic:. Qwirkle (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Openlydialectic: True, and that we should mention the affiliation is something most of us agree on at this point. I think what we're debating is whether and how we should present Russian media's claiming his affiliation was a cause of the incident. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I speak Russian, and to some extent I follow the Russian media. I haven't seen a single non-tabloid source claim his mother's affiliation was the cause of the incident. I haven't seen tabloids claim that too, but I don't read them so maybe some did. Can you link me the sources you are thinking about that explicitly link his mother's religious affiliation with the murders? Openlydialectic (talk) 15:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I think you're right. I was just going off of what the IP was saying above, but upon reading it again, I think the IP was making that connection him/herself, rather than reporting a source that did so. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:19, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, the info about the sect should be added to the body. I mean before I added the mention of the sect yesterday the page mentioned how he burned the bible without even stating that his controlling mother belonged to the sect, even though it stands to reason the two events were related. Also, I think this talk page is being brigaded by the sect's members. At least that's the only explanation I can fathom as to why any mention of the sect was being constantly removed from the article. Openlydialectic (talk) 04:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Lead

The lead currently states that the attack "…ended the series of similarly inspired crimes in the same year…". What does this mean? Have there been a series of Columbine-inspired attacks in Crimea and/or Russia that I never heard about, and is there any way we could incorporate a wikilink to explain that? And what about how it "ended" the series? How do we know this it the end? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:44, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Throughout 2018, in Russia (not in the Crimea itself), there were about 4-6 different attacks on schools, whose organizers were Russian fans of Columbine. This is so widespread in modern Russian social networks that the government even separately issued a decree on the removal of such communities as extremist. Solaire the knight (talk) 04:23, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I see the sentences in question have been struck from the lead, rendering my question moot. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 03:42, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Bombs used in the Kerch Polytechnic shooting.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

There is no reference to the source of information about portrait identification of young people in photos to the article. Correctly sign-unknown people, not Roslyakov and criminal.АСмуров (talk) 09:09, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Attack

There is no information from 12 hours 17 minutes of Moscow time on October 17, 2018 on the explosion of gas in the college canteen, numerous victims, the arrival of fire engines and gas service.АСмуров (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Bombs kill or just injure victims?

. .

This article has no information on how many victims were injured from the bombing and no info stating if any deaths were due to the bomb/bombs that exploded. 70 people were injured in the attack, that is a large number of people. Seems very likely most of the 70 were injured by bombs and not guns. Can anyone include that information in the article? 158.222.178.138 (talk) 12:00, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Coverage of Event

For some reason most american media outlets didn't wan't to cover this story, which is crazy since it involved a teenager killing 20 people. As far as I know this is the deadliest single person school attack in Ukraine/Russia's history. Don't tell me that are current relationship with Russia is the reason why this story was ignored, i will remember this one forever mainly because Roslyakov was my age and he killed 20 people with a shotgun and bombs, this is like if the original plan of Columbine was successful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8880:19B6:D9EF:4574:8575:E8A4 (talk) 08:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

21st victim?

Apparently, one victim died in 2019. 2601:408:8001:120:A121:6F34:71CC:FA8B (talk) 06:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Perpetrator

The perpetrator section reads like it was written by a friend. It should be deleted and rewritten to include only information that has sources. The amount of subjective information in this article is ridiculous. 2601:405:8400:1AD4:B985:61FD:4D30:8055 (talk) 02:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)