Talk:2020 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

5 tropical cyclones last active - 1971 or 1995?

I recently changed this mention in the seasonal summary to 1971 with a reference. However, based on a cursory glance at 1995 Atlantic hurricane season, it seems that Humberto through Luis were all simultaneously active on August 27-28 when they were at least tropical depression strength. If someone could elaborate further, it would be helpful. IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 08:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, all 5 were active at once. Check the Season Summary and look the months when they formed. Rmagnan (talk) 09:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I'll change it back to 1995 then. IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 09:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the data in detail, it appears that Jerry merged with a trough by 06z on August 28, while Luis didn't form until 18z on that day. As a result of these 12 hours, 1971 is correct.Jason Rees (talk) 10:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
  - This is true, however, the depression that became Luis was designated at 12z August 27 when Jerry was still active. IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
    - It is true, but it doesn't count because the tropical depression that eventually became Luis had not officially been named as Luis until after Jerry was already post-tropical. 1971 is the year to refer to because of this. Gumballs678 (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
      - It does count, though, since we are specifying tropical cyclones, not named storms. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:22, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
        Looking back at the TCRs for both Jerry and Luis, Jerry merged with the trough at 06z on August 28. Luis was classified as a td at 18z on August 28. So, no, it doesn't count because Jerry was no longer classifiable as a tropical cyclone when Luis formed. Gumballs678 (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
        Oops. Should have check that. The Timeline of the 1995 Atlantic hurricane season has TD13 forming at 18z on August 27. Fixing that. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
        Hurdat still has Luis forming as a depression at 12z August 27, so I'm keeping the reference to 1995. IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Subtropical Storm Alpha

Attention! Subtropical Storm Alpha Has Formed Next To Portugal So It Would Be Helpful If Someone Makes An Article About This Storm. Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricanestudier123: See Draft:Tropical Storm Alpha (2020)

Why is it not Draft:Subtropical Storm Alpha (2020)? Nova Crystallis (Talk) 17:17, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm Not Sure Why But It Should Say Subtropical Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 17:19, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

He created it at the wrong title because I already created a redirect at the correct title. Master of Time (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: Thanks for moving it to the correct title! ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Oh That's Why Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Auxiliary List

Instead of saying "Auxiliary List' it should mention that they are the letters of the greek alphabet? Linphil (talk) 17:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

No need. The section already says "As more than 21 named tropical cyclones have occurred this season, storms that formed after Wilfred will take names from the Greek alphabet." TornadoLGS (talk) 17:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

It has happened...

With the whole naming list exhausted, 22L will become Alpha if upgraded to TS. Everyone keep in mind that no retirements will occur for Greek Letters. For now, we should keep only the first 6 names displayed. If 3-4 are used, we can display more. Any unused names at the end of the season will be removed. Does that sound good? Noah^Talk 14:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, indeed it does. Drdpw (talk) 14:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

That is fine. However, if it is warranted, to note that while the Greek letter itself will not be retired, the "year" will be. Example: Alpha 2020. I believe that is what the WMO decided following the 2005 season. If no Greek letters meet the requirements for retirement, then it won't be needed. Gumballs678 (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Alpha has arrived

"NHC will initiate advisories on Subtropical Storm Alpha, located near the coast of Portugal, at 1230 PM AST (1630 UTC)." Rainclaw7 (talk) 16:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Rainclaw7 and Hurricane Noah: Wow, that was fast! Only took 1 and a half hours to get a greek name. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:18, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

22L Could Be Beta Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

As of a few minutes ago, 22L is Tropical Storm Beta (2020). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:07, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Cape Verde or Cabo Verde?

Cabo Verde is the official name of the Cape Verde Islands, but most people do not acknowledge it, including the people that live there. The NHC uses Cabo Verde, which is what I've been using for the Tropical Storm Rene section, but I was wondering if I should change to Cape Verde instead. Thoughts?ChessEric (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

This is currently under discussion at the Cape Verde page. Until that discussion is closed, Wikipedia uses Cape Verde. --WMSR (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia at large may well use "Cape Verde", but the NHC use "Cabo Verde", so specifically on this article (and regardless of the outcome of that discussion) we should use the Portuguese spelling as well. Using the English spelling would be original research in this context. Buttons0603 (talk) 02:25, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

It would not be OR. It's the same group of islands whether the cited source calls them Cape Verde or Cabo Verde; the terms are interchangeable. Articles have to deal with topics that go by multiple names all the time. TornadoLGS (talk) 04:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes it would be OR. We cannot decide what the islands are called. In the context of tropical cyclones, that decision is up to whatever the NHC say. Buttons0603 (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Calling them Cape Verde rather than Cabo Verde is not OR as it is not introducing new information, and it is still Wikipedia policy to call them Cape Verde. If a source says Homo sapiens we can still say "human" when we cite it. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Cabo Verde IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 08:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

The two are interchangeable. There was a move request for Cape Verde to be moved to Cabo Verde, but the result was not moved. Cape Verde is not the official name, but it is the name most people used until the 2010s. Same with Eswantini. They changed the name, but most countries still refer it as Swaziland. In a sense, it will not be OR to translate to english per WP:COMMONNAME. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Three Storms Named On Same Day

Wilfred, Alpha and Beta were all named on September 18th. Has this ever happened before? Is is deserving of mention? 67.215.144.179 (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Not until an official or reliable secondary source calls attention to it. Drdpw (talk) 21:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

This source mentions the three storms being named at once, but the detail is somewhat small compared to the rest of the article. History Mind (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

According to Philip Klotzbach, who heads CSU, it has only happened once before on August 15, 1893. As such, that would mean it is the first time it has occurred in the satellite era Gumballs678 (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Storm order in the timeline

Twice, people on this page have had to correct the timeline when an editor has mistakenly put TS Beta after Wilfred and Alpha. I have included hidden notes under the section headers for those storms, but apparently hidden text does not work in the timeline. I suspect this could be a bigger problem than it was with Nana and Omar, since Beta will probably be a bigger news item. Any recommendations on steering people away from incorrectly reordering the storms? TornadoLGS (talk) 22:59, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you just create an actual note just before or just after the timeline that explains that? Gumballs678 (talk) 23:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I suppose. I would prefer something next to the particular storm, but I guess that's the best we can do. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so my idea didn't fly. Hurricane Noah What would you recommend? We may only have to deal with this issue more if Beta becomes more of to threat to the U.S. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:20, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

We just have to change it back repeatedly and if it keeps happening, page protection is required. Noah^Talk 02:22, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding a note seems like a lot less trouble, and I don't think the fact that we haven't done it before should be an issue, since these are not typical circumstances. I admit, I may have passed the three-revert-rule in dealing with this. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:43, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I honestly agree with Noah here. If more disruption continues, then page protection would be the best solution for this. CycloneYoris ^talk! 05:58, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Greek Names

Shouldn't the Greek names be revealed as the storms form? So like keep the name Gamma hidden until Gamma's named. Am I wrong or should it be done this way? CodingCyclone (talk) 21:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@CodingCyclone: Not to be rude, but no. Please see the discussions above about hidden names on Greek storms.~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:42, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: Ohh, got it. I just wasn't sure if it was walking the fine line of WP:CRYSTAL. Thank you for the clarification! CodingCyclone (talk) 21:45, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

No The Rest Of The Greek Names Is Only Necessary If We Get To Zeta Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 13:34, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Article for TS Alpha?

Already clearly created as Subtropical Storm Alpha (2020). Further discussion will be forum-like and unnecessary. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Since Alpha is going to break records for that far eastern formation and a subtropical/tropical Europe landfall, why not make it's own article?

This has already been discussed above. Master of Time (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

There is already a draft for that storm. Though, it's worth noting that breaking geographic records alone does not necessarily make a storm notable enough for an article. See Talk:2019 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 1#Hurricane Pablo. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Then why do Epsilon and Zeta get articles? Any greek storm should get an article, especially one that is just about to make landfall.~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying it shouldn't get an article. Just that forming farther east alone may not be grounds for an article. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Alpha formed the farthest east, breaking Vince's record, while also impacting land. Will continue to monitor for impacts @TornadoLGS:. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

A storm is not notable solely because it has a Greek name. Tropical Storm Zeta was cross year and formed in late December and Epsilon was one of only a handful of TCs to attain hurricane status in December. A Greek-named storm in the middle of nowhere that only attains tropical storm force would not need an article, for instance. Master of Time (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Master of Time: Alpha is not "in the middle of nowhere." It is over Portugal, becoming the first TC to make landfall there at TS force. Also, it was the easternmost forming storm, more east than Vince.~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: When did I say I was talking about Alpha? Master of Time (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Beta got its article because it was the fist Greek name to ever reach major hurricane status Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 17:57, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Beta also got an article also because it made landfall as a hurricane. In fact most of the Greek TCs in 2005 made landfall. But arguing based on the 2005 season nonetheless falls under WP:OTHERSTUFF. Alpha is notable, though, for affecting the Iberian peninsula (possibly the first to do so as a tropical/subtropical storm?). I also want to remind people to to stay civil in this discussion. ~TornadoLGS (talk)

Certainly the first since the 1842 Spain hurricane, since Vince was a depression. Buttons0603 (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Alpha is also notable for having started from a far-northeast wave, in latitudes which rarely (ever?) produce tropical storms. (The other two cyclones which struck Europe both originated off the coast of Africa.) Most English-language WP editors seem to have become aware of Alpha's potential existence only within a couple of days of its landfall, so that bit of history gets lost -- but it is visible and captioned in the Sept 14 satellite gif near the top of this page. In fact, the wave's potential is mentioned by the NHC from very early Sept 15 onward -- it was almost off the map at https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ when it first appeared, far upper right-hand corner. In several decades, I have never seen an invest initially assigned that far northeast. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Tropical Storm Grace (2009) also formed in a similar manner to Alpha but tracked towards the UK instead of Portugal. Buttons0603 (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Beta

Just wondering, has anybody made a Tropical Storm Beta article (shouldn't be Tropical Storm Beta (2020) because the Beta in 2005 was a hurricane) I like hurricanes (talk) 01:58, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Not yet. Right now, the page Tropical Storm Beta is a dab page since there are two TCs known as Beta. The current storm hasn't really done much yet, so I'd wait a bit. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Looks like it does need to be added to both the storms list here and in the main 2020 season one though. Formed late yesterday (09-18-2020). Minervamaga (talk) 05:51, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I'm wondering if I should change it into a draft and work on it, looks like it's gonna bring heavy rain (8-12 inches) in Texas and Louisiana I like hurricanes (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe If Beta Does Deadly Flooding In Texas An Article Could Be Made. Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 13:30, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Since there are two tropical cyclones named Beta, and 2005's system was a tropical storm at one point, the article title should be Tropical Storm Beta (2020) while Tropical Storm Beta should remain a dab page. Since landfall in the U.S. is likely, there probably will be an article, or at least a draft, before long. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:04, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Unless landfall results in significant damage or causes deadly flooding, a separate article for this TS seems unnecessary. Drdpw (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Do we need to set standards on what qualifies for an article, then, like we do for tornadoes? Nearly every Atlantic TC that makes landfall gets an article, but current discussions seem to indicate that sets the bar too low for notability. TornadoLGS (talk) 00:49, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: Generally when a storm impacts land there's enough news coverage to meet WP:GNG; however, from there it's a judgement call by editors to see if an article is really needed. A good example is Edouard, it impacted Bermuda but to a very minor degree. Preps and impact can be covered in a couple sentences, thus a standalone article isn't needed. Bertha on the other hand caused minor damage, but there's enough information to support a standalone article as it can be expanded beyond the two paragraphs it should be limited to in the season article. When in doubt, a community discussion is best. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 01:05, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclonebiskit, TornadoLGS, Drdpw, Minervamaga, and I like hurricanes: A draft was created - Draft:Tropical Storm Beta (2020). ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:20, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Lead

Is this sentence really necessary in the lead? This unprecedented activity has been fueled by an ongoing La Niña; however, most storms so far have been hindered by dry air, Saharan dust, and wind shear, although wind shear in the Atlantic basin tends to be reduced during La Niña conditions. In fact, is the sentence really necessary at all? All three of these negative inhibitors are typically the main inhibitors of a storm's intensity throughout a season, regardless of a La Nina. Furthermore, I don't think we need to include the sentence where the season is the fourth-most active season on record, because it is still ongoing and if more named storms occur, then it will continue to move up the list of the most active seasons. Once the season is over, then I feel it would be necessary to add back in, with X named storms, the season is the X most active season on record. Gumballs678 (talk) 01:54, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

imo, it's all necessary and can be updated as time goes on IosifDzhugashvilli (talk) 03:23, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
@Gumballs678: Well, the sentence is long and wordy, but summarizes the season very well. The season's hyperactive based on the number of named storms, but most have stayed weak.~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Destroyeraa: Sure, but is it necessary to include all of that in the sentence? I don't have an issue with mentioning the La Nina and the fact that the storms have remained weak for the most part, but it doesn't seem necessary to include the dry air, SAL, and wind shear. Gumballs678 (talk) 14:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
  - @Gumballs678: I saw that you fixed the sentence; I made a few adjustments to it too. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
    - @Destroyeraa: I didn't update the sentence, at least not that I remember. But, I see the adjustments and I'm fine with those. Gumballs678 (talk) 14:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
      - I did. We should be careful about causal relationships like this and I would much rather that we do not use "fueled", which implies a causal relationship, until reliable sources make that claim. ENSO-negative is hardly the only reason.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
        That sentence mentioning La Nina was originally in the seasonal summary. Someone moved it to the lede and it's changed considerably since it first appeared. TovarishhUlyanov (talk) 01:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Records of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season

In the future, please do not add any more records without going to the talk page and gaining consensus. Previous users have done just this, and thank you for doing so. Adding too many records will make the article sound trivial. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed 100%. While the season is a record-breaking season, not every "record" needs to added because then, like you said, it becomes trivial. Sometimes the record itself can be included in the storm's summary or if it has an article, in there. But, sometimes records are just trivial. I'm all about things being broken and I love watching it happen, but it's not always necessary. Gum balls 678 talk 21:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Hurricane Teddy

This one may also warrant a merge to the main page here. The impacts appear to have been minor other than the 2 recorded deaths and the info as a whole can be summed up in 2 or so paragraphs. Hurricane development information is routine and should not be overly detailed if no records were broken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:31, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Keep. It's still a recent storm. There were likely impacts along the eastern US from the high waves, and some impact in Canada. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:35, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah this merge discussion isn't official as no tag was added. I am perfectly fine with keeping as long as noteworthy impacts are found. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Teddy size

Guys, I have realized that Hurricane Teddy now has tropical Storm force winds extending over 665km from the center according to the latest NHC advisory. I am wondering could the diameter of Teddy be one of the largest in the Atlantic Ocean on record? I was thinking about putting a records sections because of Teddys enormous size, but I am not sure. So can anyone help me determine the diameter of Teddy and its position in the list of largest hurricane? DavidTheMeteorologist^Talk 16:29 September 22, 2020 (UTC)

We do have a template listing the largest Atlantic hurricanes

Largest Atlantic hurricanes By diameter of gale-force winds
Rank	System	Season	Diameter
Rank	System	Season	mi	km
1	Sandy	2012	1,150	1,850
2	Martin	2022	1,040	1,670
3	Igor	2010	920	1,480
4	Olga	2001	865	1,390
5	Teddy	2020	850	1,370
Sources: [1][2][3][4] [5]

But I find it somewhat questionable, since it the number appear to be calculated assuming the wind fields were circular, rather than directly sourced, so that may get into original research territory. Based on the different wind radii in the forecast advisory, the gale diameter is 1,165 km. TornadoLGS (talk) 16:52, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with adding such a record, but the record isn't consistent across Wikipedia. The sources for those records have contradicting numbers as to whether Olga of 2001 or Sandy of 2012 was larger. TovarishhUlyanov (talk) 22:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Here are some places across wikipedia where the numbers contradict each other: here, here, here, here and here. TovarishhUlyanov (talk) 22:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

While Teddy's size is impressive, it doesn't really needed to be added into a record. Mentioning the storm's size within its article should suffice enough. Gum balls 678 talk 23:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

An "updated" table in Teddy's, Sandy's, and Olga's articles would be nice. TovarishhUlyanov (talk) 04:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Teddy's article likely wouldn't need the table because the storm's size doesn't fit into the top 5 as the table lists. Also, it's probably better to exclude it until the storm's TCR comes out to see if its size is mentioned. Gum balls 678 talk 17:26, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Paulette on season summary chart

Wondering if the reformation of Paulette on the season summary chart should be coloured the same as the first part? I think it should be the same colour as it is the same storm (which is why we use the same name). The other storms are all the same colour even though the storm only was at its peak intensity for a short portion of its life. I am going to see how easy it seems to change, otherwise I will leave it for someone else to do. Jordan 1972 (talk) 19:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I have reverted your bold edit. See how Beryl and Leslie are denoted in the 2018 Atlantic hurricane season page's graphical timeline. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@Jordan 1972: It is the same storm, yes, but when Paulette reformed, it came back as a tropical storm, which is shown in the two different colorings of the storm. If Paulette had reformed, and re-attained cat 2 intensity, then the coloring would've been the same. It's like what @Drdpw: mentioned, in that in 2018, Hurricanes Beryl and Leslie both dissipated and then reformed as (sub)tropical storms, which gives them two different colors. No other storm has two different colors because no other storm formed, dissipated, and then reformed and reached a secondary intensity less intense than its initial peak. Hope this helps clear some confusion! :) Gum balls 678 talk 21:04, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@Gumballs678 and Jordan 1972: I think what Gumballs678 means is that Paulette, Beryl, and Leslie because either extratropical or remnant lows, then regenerated into a tropical cyclone. The storms didn't technically dissipate, it's just that we only record the tropical parts of their lifespan in the season summary. It may be a little confusing, and that's understandable. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:03, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Hurricane Sally damage estimates

I saw that on fox buisness they estimated damage estimates of 2-3 billion dollars. I will see if I can link it. I like hurricanes (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Here , this is the damage estimates

Probably around 4-7. Yu noducks (talk) 01:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Areas affected: none

In the "Season effects" section, on the line for Hurricane Wilfred, would it be all right to replace "None" with "Central Atlantic Ocean only"? This would give a little bit of location (saying it wasn't in the Caribbean, for example) without losing the fact that it didn't do any damage. 2603:3021:1A04:D800:1C5F:79C7:455D:F1CD (talk) 15:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

The point of this section is to indicate areas that experienced some "effect" from the storm. It's not about indicating where the storm is as much as showing certain areas of land that were impacted by the storm (i.e. rainfall, storm surge, etc) DarkSide830 (talk) 17:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Correct, the point of the 'Areas affected' box is to show human/land impacts by the storm. Storms that only stay out to sea, do not 'impact' areas. It brought rainfall to... the ocean. Sdslayer100 (talk) 18:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed; if say however, a ship were to be sunk or heavily damaged at sea, would that noteworthy? (I can't recall this ever happening in modern times, though historically it has.) Drdpw (talk) 19:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It did happen with the Bourbon Rhode during Hurricane Lorenzo, though that affected land as well. That may warrant inclusion at the 2019 article. TornadoLGS (talk) 19:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

If a ship were to be heavily damaged or sunk at sea the deaths and damages would count, but we would not list it in the Areas affected part of the SE Chart as it isnt a land area. We also have to remember that ships are impacted by TC's all the time.Jason Rees (talk) 22:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Possible Hurricane Paulette Record

Between Paulette's formation and its reformation, seven named tropical or subtropical storms have developed. This is almost certainly a record - it required a very specific set of circumstances that only years like 2020 could fulfill - but I don't think anyone's been keeping track of that metric. There's already been a good-faith edit stating that this was indeed a record, but it wasn't cited and has since been removed. So... anyone want to go trawling through some databases? Or should this even be mentioned? 2601:282:300:9580:FC32:85E2:53CD:2869 (talk) 07:12, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

It seems like an incredibly trivial record to me that's not worth mentioning. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 07:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it's not a "significant record" to set, but (1) it gives a good sense of the momentum of this year's hurricane season and (2) it seems, at least going back to 1950, to have obliterated the previous record by a huge margin. In the period from 1950 to 2019, from a cursory tired glance, I only saw 9 named storms that formed during such intervals total. And then it happened seven times with one storm this year. Is it important? Not especially! Is it interesting? To me, yep! 2601:282:300:9580:FC32:85E2:53CD:2869 (talk) 08:22, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The fact you would need to do any real research to “prove” it tells me that this would be considered original research; if it is in fact notable, let a journalist do the work and we can quote her or him. That is the job of an encyclopedic writer. Jordan 1972 (talk) 12:41, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Currently this is only Original research. Also also, we posted too many trivial records for the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season. Enough is enough, and if there are any more records, we may need to created a page called the Records of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:43, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, it would be original research/synthesis unless some newspaper out there has stated it. Even then, it's a weirdly arbitrary record to look at, since the time between a system dissipating and reforming varies. That being said, if we broke some kind of record like "most tropical cyclones to form in a week," it might be worth noting. TornadoLGS (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

So, in the week of September 7-14, Hurricane Paulette, Tropical Storm Rene, Hurricane Sally, Hurricane Teddy and Tropical Storm Vicky formed, at 5. I'm not sure if that's a record. If we do September 11-18 instead though, we have Hurricane Sally, Hurricane Teddy, Tropical Storm Vicky, Tropical Storm Winfred, Subtropical Storm Alpha and Tropical Storm Beta, at 7. That might be a record. Also to note Paulette fully dissipated on September 30. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 12:53, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Still trivial. Too many records will make this a more DYK article than a prose article. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:25, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: so how about we make a record of the 2020 season article and then add it in there? That’s more of a DYK if we decide to make one. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 13:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@67.85.37.186: You probably have to get consensus if you want to make one. Personally, I believe that most of the current records are all formation records, which don't warrant an article. Paulette wasn't the longest-living TC on record either. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: 1st of all, IP pings don't work. Yes, I know that it wasn't the longest, Hurricane John was. But in the Atlantic, it might have been. I'd be willing to make subsection in this for an article. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 13:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Paulette was tropical for only around 10 days, which isn't very long. Storms such as Dorian, Irma, Ivan, etc. have beat it by a lot. We don't count the extratropical portion of Paulette. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:03, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh. I was including when it was post tropical. Technically when Hurricane Sandy made landfall it was post tropical, but we do count those damages. If you do include the post tropical time, it is 23 days. Fair point however. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 14:07, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2020

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tropical storm gamma formed, needs to be 24 tropical storms 67.85.37.186 (talk) 01:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Done! ~ Destroyeraa🌀 01:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

TS Gamma warning cone

The current image for Gamma's forecast is pretty outdated, can we get a new image for the warning cone? Love and kisses and whatnot Gex4pls (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Gex4pls: I'm pretty sure the bot will update soon enough, but in the meantime, I'll ping @CoolStuffYT: to do the honors. And your last sentence, Gex4pls... ~ Destroyeraa🌀 18:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: Corrected it :) But the image seems to be too large... how can I fix that? 13:47, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Delta Article?

TS Delta should have an article since it is already a threat in Cuba. According to the funnel chart, Delta can be a hurricane and make landfall in Louisiana. If someone has made a draft, tell me so that I can help edit it. Aegeou2 (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. It's already significant enough as a Greek name storm, and it's predicted to actually make landfall in a place that is not the Caribbean. Also yeah, it is a threat to multiple places already. I'm new and I don't know that much about how talk works so I hope I did it right. TriplyExpositioned (talk) 13:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I was just gonna create a draft has anybody created one though? Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I just created a draft Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 13:49, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any other drafts. My searches won't be that complete knowing that I'm new, but I have not found anything. TriplyExpositioned (talk) 13:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I was just about to thank @Robloxsupersuperhappyface: for making the draft, Draft:Tropical_Storm_Delta_(2020) Gex4pls (talk) 14:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Got it. Aegeou2 (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2020

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Currently according to Tropical Storm Beta, the article says it did over $1 million, but here it says unknown. Can we update it to say >$1 million? 67.85.37.186 (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Do we have a source for the $1 million? I haven't been able to find any that confirm the damage estimate. If there isn't one, the article needs to be updated to match the season effects to say "Unknown" until a confirmed source has a damage estimate. Gum balls 678 talk 21:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this. I think that it should, but I do want others to have the opportunity to edit it up-to-date. Aegeou2 (talk) 23:02, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

It says over 1 million dollars on the article, but I'm not sure if there's a source. Pinging User: Destroyeraa for her input. Also pinging User: Robloxsupersuperhappyface.--67.85.37.186 (talk) 23:20, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Not done unless a source is given. There was no source on Beta's article, just an estimate by an unknown user, which has been removed. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:54, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:Is Accuweather an acceptable source? Their damage estimate was 1 billion: Beta delivers deluge to Texas coastline, trapping motorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gex4pls (talk • contribs)

@Gex4pls: Accuweather is not a reliable source for damage estimates. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 18:05, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, alright then Gex4pls (talk) 18:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

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It says on Hurricane Teddy it did minimal damage. I can agree, as it had limited impacts. Can we update the article to say that? 67.85.37.186 (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Done Inks.LWC (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hurricane Sally

I've now seen multiple times today changes to Sally's damage estimates, all of them going between 7 billion and 1 billion. Now, I know that the damage estimates will continue to fluctuate as insurance losses continue to be calculated, but going back and forth between two figures hours apart on the same day, seems excessive. Has anyone else noticed this? Furthermore, of the sources currently provided for such totals, most of them are higher than the current $1 billion listed. What estimated cost should be used? Gum balls 678 talk 23:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@Gumballs678: Thank you very much. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: Seems a little more dramatic and unnecessary than needs to be, but I'm glad I wasn't the first person who noticed the changes. As it stands now, is there still a discussion on this matter or has it been resolved? Gum balls 678 talk 01:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Gumballs678: I have talked with the other party and proposed we discuss it civilly here. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 01:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Damage estimates

AON comes out in a few hours. No need for more debate.~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:42, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While unrelated to the dispute between the two parties, my personal belief is that the damage estimate not be updated until the NHC confirms it. However, my personal belief is not the rule of law, and Sally's TCR is still months away from being published. Until then, the dispute between the damage estimates should continue to be discussed here. It appears that there may need to be multiple third parties involved in the dispute to help keep it civil, but to also fact-check any and all arguments that occur. Gum balls 678 talk 02:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the sources provided, insured losses only are estimated at US$1–3 billion by a few catastrophe modelling agencies. Meanwhile, overall losses are estimated at around US$7–8 billion by one agency (assuming the AL.com article is more updated, since the Reuters piece it links precedes it by a week and quotes the estimate as US$8–10 billion). That same agency states that US$5 billion of "damage and cleanup costs" were likely incurred from "immediate impact", which I would take to mean it does not cover the full extent of damage. The minimum estimate to use here looks to be US$7 billion, since insured losses don't constitute everything. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 09:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

AON estimates will be out in a few days. That’ll clear things up a lot! ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No offense, but can't we just wait to see what the NCDC says the damage estimate is while putting the damage range in for now (i.e. $1-7 billion)? This will obviously be a billion dollar disaster and the NCDC report will clear ALL of this up.ChessEric (talk) 14:52, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@ChessEric: No offense taken. LOL. Well, other storms all use AoN as the estimator. You can put up $1-8 billion for now. Let's see if others agree. Also, the content dispute is closed, so I'll be removing it.

The latest source we have (al.com) that gives an estimate for the TOTAL cost says at least $7 billion. I don't understand where you guys come up with the $1 billion figure? Firstly, common knowledge should tell you the total cost was far higher than $1 billion. Secondly, all the sources mentioning the $1 billion figure are only referring to insured losses. Insured losses are only a small portion of the total cost of this storm. I already went through this entire discussion once. Literally every single argument in this discussion was already made, was responded to, and was resolved. Now for some reason we have to do it all over again on this page. I already posted this link: [11] which says quote: "Hurricane Sally is not expected to cause a major insurance loss...As the storm was more of a flood event, the ratings agency said, most of the losses will be covered by the U.S. National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP)." What started this entire dispute was that someone posted a source claiming the cost was $1-3 billion but that same source also literally said that this estimate did not include NFIP losses. In other words the estimate was clearly incomplete and only covered a small portion of the total losses. It is perfectly logical to go with the $7 billion figure for now until we get newer estimates from other reliable sources, which in my opinion will end up being even higher than $7 billion. Ultimately all the figures will be updated at the end of the season when NHC reports come out so this issue doesn't warrant all this time and energy that is being devoted to it. Hurricane21 (talk) 22:46, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: AON reports come out in two days. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: Yes AON reports will come out in two days and you will see that their estimates will be much closer to the $7 billion figure than to the $1 billion figure. In fact their estimate will likely exceed the $7 billion figure. I hope this entire unnecessary discussion satisfied whatever concerns you had but hopefully next time when someone politely asks you to first discuss the issue before reverting their edits for no reason you follow Wikipedia guidelines (WP:BRD) and actually respect a simple polite request. Hurricane21 (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: AON is much more reliable than all the other individual sources. al.com is a local new source in Alabama. There is a rational to say that sources such as KarenCo and Moody are more reliable than a local news source, since KarenCo reliably and closely estimated Isaias's damage. Also remember please that Jasper Deng once told you that we put "storm damage losses", not "total economic losses". JD did not respond because he does not like to respond to people (even when people ask for help or award him). JD is also a very experienced user, with 47,000 edits and 13 years of expertise. Cyclonebiskit is an experienced user and an admin for 5 years. Ask them if you have any more questions, please. Thank you very much, and have a lovely day. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:

1. I'm perfectly fine with going with whatever AON says.
2. The al.com source says nothing about "total economic losses". It says quote: "...estimating the overall loss from Hurricane Sally between $7 billion to $8 billion. Of that, $3 billion is insurance losses." It further says: “Our numbers are higher because we are counting things like government expenses, and redirected economic activity,”. My understanding of "economic losses" that JD was referring to was things like businesses/industries shutting down or being unable to operate not storm related government expenses. Government expenses go into things like storm cleanup or fallen tree removal, which as far as I understand are part of the total damage. But even if you would want to exclude those types of expenses, the source still does not indicate that those expenses are a large portion of their estimated total expense so it is illogical to go back down to an unrealistic $1 billion figure. In fact it would have even been ok to go with the original $5 billion figure just to stay on the conservative side but you insisted that we use an obviously false and unrealistic figure of $1 billion.
3. I have no questions to ask JD or Cyclonebiskit but thanks for your suggestion.
4. If you're satisfied with this discussion and feel like we can agree on going with a certain value for now then please say so because there is an open dispute pending on this issue.
Hurricane21 (talk) 00:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: I agree that $1 billion is a bit unrealistic, seeing the damage using drones and helicopters from news websites. I am glad how you are open to more damage figures than just the $7-8 billion, I thank you for doing that. I currently am thinking of three ways we can carry on with this below. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions

Put $5-8 billion
Put ≥$5 billion
Put ≥$7 billion

Any comments or questions, or suggestions will be welcomed. @KN2731, Cyclonebiskit, Gumballs678, ChessEric, and Hurricane21: and others, please put your !votes down below. Thanks.~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

At this point the better option would have been to just wait for AON reports. Part of my concern with this entire discussion was that we're spending way too much time and energy on something that ultimately doesn't matter. I'm simply trying to say sometimes its better not to open up disputes on small issues like this. Anyways I went ahead and voted anyways. Hurricane21 (talk) 01:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: Thank you. Yeah, I'm also eager for the AON reports, but we have to put something for now. Can't vote since I wrote the suggestions. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 01:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

!Votes

3 -Hurricane21 (talk) 01:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

1; I don't think the damages are 4 billion or lower but I dought Sally caused any more damage than 8 billion - I like hurricanes (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to vote until there is more of a consensus on the total losses from the storm. While most of the sources for Sally do list the damage estimates between $5-8 billion, either figure doesn't seem correct because it's a range. $7 billion doesn't really work either because of the same issue. For now, I think it is best to leave whatever damage estimate is currently listed for Sally (I think its 7 billion) as is until AON releases their report. Whatever that figure may be, should then be used as the final figure for Sally until the storm's TCR comes out in the spring. Gum balls 678 talk 01:38, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Would prefer 3 (i.e. status quo) for the next 36 hours or so until the AON reports come out. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 09:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2020

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Delta currently says as of 4AM CDT 600 UTC but can we fix it so its the same???? 67.85.37.186 (talk) 14:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Done ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:10, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Good or featured article

Discussion violates WP:NOTFORUM. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 11:03, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

After the 2020 season ends as the most active in history. Will it be tagged as a good or featured article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Modokai (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 05:56 October 8

Neither. A full rewrite will be needed to incorporate TCR information and post-storm damage assessments. Both good articles and featured articles are required to go through a review process in order to be promoted. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 06:16, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Modokai: it may not be. We need four more tropical storms. It's getting late in the season, and the 2 waves have small chances of being Tropical Storm Epsilon. I'm not fully sure we'll be most active. You can't make assumptions. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 12:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Not very late. Also there might be more off-season storms in the season, since there already have been two. I believe we'll get to about Kappa before stuff become too cold for storms. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 12:32, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Chicdat: WP: OR. We might get to Kappa, Theta, Eta, Zeta, Epsilon or stay at Delta. We could even get down to pi! The point is, saying that it will break 2005 is original research. And giving how any organizing storm has to deal with dry air, if it can't form in 5 days, wind shear will tear it apart. That is the forecast. I can't see Epsilon forming until late October. We need to have an active November. Keep in mind; 2005 had 2 storms in December. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 12:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Please remember not to turn this discussion into a forum. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:09, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh no, we’re not. But we are breaching WP: OR, so the publisher got a {{uw-or1}} warning. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

You know, why don't we just close this discussion? 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 11:02, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Arthur Merge to comment on

[12]. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Closed because of WP:DEADHOURSE. Just because you think that a discussion wasn't fair doesn't mean you can propose it again. It was a fair discussion with a close because of no consensus for a merge. Re-nominating arthur for merging within the next 2 weeks IMO is very pointy. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Look, I don't want to pick a fight on this, but isn't closing the discussion effectively the same as accepting the vote as a vote to keep? I don't support a new discussion but just closing the original discussion for a lack of consensus does nothing to solve the problem. It's not like the article's existence is terribly problematic either way, but that is the case nevertheless. I really think the best thing to do would have just been to wait a little longer to close and then make a determination then. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
  - Three days after a nomination was closed is too short. Just be patient and wait a few weeks. C'mon people, let's not be so WP:POINTy. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:54, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
    - Fair discussion, but it closed abruptly. We shouldn't have to collapse it during the midst. There was no consensus but it was (1) anything but stale and (2) middle of discussion. Consensus should've come later. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 17:14, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
      - You may reopen the closed discussion in around two weeks to a month, just not three days after a previous discussion was just closed. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
You might want to read WP:DEADHORSE as the consensus was pretty clear against a merge. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- The first one had strong consensus but it was stale. One above was closed inappropriately. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 20:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
  - @Knowledgekid87: I re-opened the Arthur merge, since some users still want consensus to be made. Y'all happy? ~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:11, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
    - Is everything okay? There is always a WP:WIKIBREAK you can take for a bit, I mean don't let editing get to you. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:36, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
      - I’m trying. Maybe if a user blocks me for a few days, that will get me off this Wikipedia addiction. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Nominated for ITN

The article, Tropical Storm Gamma (2020) has been nominated for Wikipedia's In The News portal. You can participate in the discussion Here. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

TCRs just came out!

Bumping thread for 180 days. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:41, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Arthur

~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Nice. Just managed to add that in before the 21:00 UTC advisory frenzy! Buttons0603 (talk) 21:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

New articles for storms

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface and ChessEric: Before making an article for future storms, please check to see if there is already an existing draft. It will get confusing if there were two Gamma articles / drafts at the same time!! ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

There were multiple articles / drafts; very frustrating. Mine was deleted! Drdpw (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Drdpw: That is really frustrating, and contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia. I suggest telling everyone on this talk page before going on and making a draft, since this can happen. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 01:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Drdpw, Destroyeraa, and Robloxsupersuperhappyface: To be fair, I started the article on the storm while it was still a depression and let Destroyeraa know when I did.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@ChessEric, Drdpw, and Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Yeah, ChessEric did. A lot of people created drafts, and that created a lot of confusion. So let's notify everyone on this talk page before starting a draft. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 02:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I didn’t remember to check, I did feel sick while making the article and my thinking was a bit blurry. So yeah we need a talk page on the main season article for drafts. Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:30, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Whoops just realized this was the main page lol Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:31, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Oh. I probably wouldn't have been as upset about how the article was written had I known that. Sorry! LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh it’s fine my body’s still feeling a bit warm but I don’t have a fever, I guess it’s just bad allergies lol, plus I think Gamma may make a second landfall in eastern Mexico so we will have to watch it closely. Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Feel better. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:55, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Feel better, watch out for Covid, and wear a mask in public! At least editing Wikipedia is safe, where us nerds have been social distancing since 2001 :P Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 15:02, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks I’m feeling better it’s just allergy season down in Texas is always violent Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface and Hurricanehink: Luckily COVID is low for us in New Jersey, but cold season is ramping up. Also, there’s an outbreak at the White House, which is currently being debated at ITN. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:49, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Texas is still a badly affected area. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Alright, switching back on topic, Gamma really needs expansion for a minimal Cat 1 hurricane (IMO). I'm not gonna go on my NHC rant here on WP, but you know what I feel about them an Gamma. Anyway, the preps and impact section and the MH really need to be expanded. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 20:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Correction–Gamma was a high end tropical storm. I'd argue it doesn't need an aticle, but Tropical Storm Vicky does as it claimed a life. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 13:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Just because a storm killed someone doesn't mean it needs an article. See WP:MEMORIAL. Also, Vicky caused the death while it was only a tropical wave. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Hurricanehink. Vicky is not a notable storm. And also Gamma was a hurricane but the NHC refused to recognize it as such, and will probably do in post analysis. Gamma still needs expansion.~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Fair points. However, I still have to say that then we don’t need a storm for Tropical Storm Arthur, which only did $112,000. Also they won’t say gamma is a hurricane as during the advisories winds were only 70mph. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Arthur has an article because of its impacts to land, despite not making landfall. The difference between say Arthur, Edouard, Rene, and Vicky, is that while they all impacted land in some way, the impacts all varied. Edouard hardly impacted Bermuda, Rene impacted the Cabo Verdes but that's typical of a CV seed. The same can be said for Vicky. Furthermore, as for the speculation on whether Gamma was a hurricane or not, just because in its final advisories its winds were 70 mph, does not mean it was not a hurricane. The NHC noted the storm was either at or just below hurricane intensity upon its landfall in Tulum. We can speculate all we want, but until the storm's TCR is released, it will remain a tropical storm. Gum balls 678 talk 17:48, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Me thinking at 6:41 AM! Anyway, Arthur didn't claim a life; Vicky did. It's possible Gamma was a hurricane-at first we thought Michael was a category 4. It was then proved to be a category 5. Anyway, I see your CV claim thing. Arthur did $112,000—IMO that's minimal(below $500,000)but your entitled to your opinion.--67.85.37.186 (talk) 19:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Vicky's precursor caused a death, not the storm itself. Furthermore, Arthur was warranted an article because of its impacts, even if it did cause $112,000. There's not really a requirement for a storm to have an article, but typically, if a storm brings significant impacts to land, it will receive an article. Not always though. But, Vicky's impacts weren't significant enough to warrant an article. Gum balls 678 talk 20:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Teddy and Paulette damage

According to AON, the damage for both Paulette and Teddy is stated as "millions". Currently, it is put as ≥$2 million. Should we change it to >$1 million, or keep it this way? ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it should be >$1 million. "Millions" just implies more than $1 million, not necessarily that it's at least $2 million. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, I didn't know that, feel free to change it to >$1 million then. Please don't forget to also update the hurricane pages themselves. Hurricane21 (talk) 19:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Record Set By Delta

Hurricane Delta is the 10th named storm to make US landfall in on year, breaking the record set in 1916. Mw843 (talk) 01:29, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but that should be an edit request. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 01:52, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Already notes in the article. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 01:56, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

"Xth named storm"

This may be kind of splitting hairs, but I notice in a number of articles for this year's storms, we mention that it is the earliest xth named storm, beating records set primary in 2005. But strictly speaking, it's not entirely correct for storms after the Azores subtropical storm. For example, Tammy was the nineteenth named storm, even though it was the twentieth tropical/subtropical storm. Should we change the wording accordingly, or is this too small of a distinction to make? TornadoLGS (talk) 03:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: Strictly speaking, the 2005 Azores storm is not named. However, the NHC counts it as a named storm. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I have gone through and fine-tuned the wording in the 2005 "post-Azores" storm articles regarding the breaking of records by 2020 storms for accuracy with citations. I have also tried to provide such nuanced and accurate statements with citations about the new storm formation records set this year in this article, and would suggest that the various individual storm articles use such wording too. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 13:16, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

When accounting for the record on xth named storm, the Azores storm is counted. It's why, for example, Delta is the 25th named storm, but beat out Gamma, even through Gamma is the 24th name. Because the Azores storm is included in the tally, every storm after it is moved down a number. It's why Wilma in 2005 is the 22nd named storm, and not the 21st. Gum balls 678 talk 15:58, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not saying to adjust the numbers, but to label systems as "the earliest Xth tropical or subtropical storm," or something to that effect." TornadoLGS (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Articles (where they exist) for 2020 "earliest" storms through Sally can accurately state that they are "the earliest Xth named Atlantic storm." Articles for storms from Teddy on can accurately state that they are "the earliest Xth tropical or subtropical storm." Drdpw (talk) 17:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Drdpw: We can not and should not be calling a tropical cyclone the earliest Xth named Atlantic storm anymore as it isn't true and never has been as the NHC are not alone in naming storms over the Atlantic. The UKMO, MetEirrean, Meteo France and various other met services in Europed name storms that impact them and that's not to mention the German FU Berlin which names highs and lows over Europe including the Atlantic Ocean and are used by the German Weather Service.Jason Rees (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

So "earliest Xth tropical or subtropical storm," would indeed be more accurate. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:29, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Except you are assuming there that FU Berlin et all have never named a tropical or subtropical storm in the Atlantic - I have no evidence either way.Jason Rees (talk) 18:35, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

You mean an Atlantic tropical or subtropical cyclone recognized by Germany but not the NHC?TornadoLGS (talk) 18:44, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Not quite as I don't think that FU Berlin classifies areas of low pressure, as tropical, subtropical, extratropical, frontal etc, but instead names all lows/highs with the exception of this that are already named by NHC. I also note that they named Ilonas - Udine.Jason Rees (talk) 19:08, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

So wouldn't that make it appropriate to list storms by when they reached (sub)tropical storm status rather than when they were named, as I proposed? TornadoLGS (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

It also depends upon the way the record is phrased by reliable sources.Drdpw (talk) 03:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jason Rees and Drdpw: Since the NHC is the RSMC for tropical cyclone naming in the Atlantic, it is safe to ignore the FU Berlin and still say “the earliest xth name tropical/subtropical Storm”. The WMO decides the beamed, and the NHC carries them out. These are the official names, not some other name other countries name them.~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:31, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually @Destroyeraa: The fact that the NHC is the RSMC for the region would not be an excuse for us not to mention any subtropical or tropical systems that FU Berlin, UKMO, Meteo France etc named or monitored especially as they are also official. Taking Alpha as a hypotethical example Portugal would have been well within their rights to name it Alex as a part of the [[European winname our storms project and we probably would have had to have the article at Subtropical Storm Alex per WP:Common Name. I also note that project consensus is very much against it since we mention PAGASA Names and as well as non RSMC storms around the world. However, we are getting off-topic here and my original point was that we can not say that something is the Nth named storm of 2020 in the Atlantic as FU Berlin, UKMO, Meteo France AEMET all name weather systems in the Atlantic and are official.Jason Rees (talk) 21:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, when backed by a reliable source, we can accurately state that "abcd was the earliest Xth named storm on record in the Atlantic hurricane season, surpassing ...". Drdpw (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

You are putting way to many qualifers in there and as i noted above, a named storm is not just tropical or subtropical cyclone anymore.Jason Rees (talk) 22:43, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

And again, this becomes a non-issue if we simply say "Xth tropical or subtropical storm" instead of "Xth named storm." TornadoLGS (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Damage

See [13]. Sally damage at least $8 billion, Isaias close to $6 billion, Laura is at most $12 billion. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 23:08, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

We already determined the damage from AON, a mostly reliable source. We don’t use disaster philanthropy. Ask @Hurricane21: for questions. Thanks. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:42, 10 October 2020 (UTC) ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2020

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We need to update the Delta advisory from 7am to 10am. It's now a depression. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 16:30, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. "7am" doesn't appear anywhere in the article, nor is it clear what this even means. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:51, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

irrelevant now, but it was the 7am advisory, but it was supposed to be the 10am advisory. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

TS Kyle Or TS Omar Article?

None of these storms have consensus to be made an article. DO NOT make articles out of them. Further discussion is futile.~ Destroyeraa🌀 18:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I Can't Seem Too Chose What Article To Make! Kyle Or Omar? What Seems Best? Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Neither storm is notable enough for an article. Both went out to sea with minimal impacts and received little attention. TornadoLGS (talk) 04:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Neither Kyle nor Omar is notable enough for their own article. Both can be adequately covered in this article. Drdpw (talk) 04:11, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The truth is, this user is making rather disruptive editing in TCs. Just today he violated WP:OR and WP:TOOSOON at the nio article by adding in a "Future BOB 03" section. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 10:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

There Is No Need To Change The Conversation Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 11:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Aslo Yes I Know I have Been Making A Little Disruptive Editing. I'll Try To Stop Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 11:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, thank you, though Please Stop Editing In Caps Like This ~ 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 11:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Sure Thing! 🐔 Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 12:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

If you’re gonna make an article, make it of TS Vicky-effects were minimal but as it killed someone, it could warrant an article. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Vicky Is Not Necessary Too, It Did Not Affect Any Land (Not Counting As A Low) and Yes It Killed Someone But As A Low Not As The Storm. Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 13:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Is Gonzalo Fine? Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 13:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Neither. They are not notable enough, and fail GNG. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 13:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don’t mean to be rude, but to put it bluntly - all the past storms that don’t currently have articles won’t have articles. And also, please Don’t Do This. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:59, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

TS Omar and TS Kyle did minimal effects. Really, I'd support merging Hurricane Epsilon. Tropical Storm Vicky was a low, but a life is a life. It did do more damage. I'd support closing this as no consensus. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Not sure why the argument for Vicky keeps being brought up as the storm doesn't really warrant an article, just like Omar, Kyle, and Edouard don't. Furthermore, I'm not sure why Epsilon was brought into the discussion. Hurricane Epsilon warranted an article because 1) it became a hurricane in December, 2) set multiple records as a hurricane in December, and 3) is the record 27th named storm of its season. Gum balls 678 talk 16:57, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Alright I’ll make an argument why we are not following other stuff exists -

Edouard did minimal damage to Bermuda. Mostly a fish storm
Gonzalo actually did do a bit of damage, but not enough to warrant an article
Josephine was a fish storm
Kyle was a fish storm
Omar was a fish storm
Rene caused minimal damage, not enough to warrant an article
Vicky did cause one death, but a lot of storms with one deaths do not get an article. Damage was too limited,
Wilfred was a fish storm.

Did I get all of them? ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Dolly was a fish storm as well. That covers every named storm that didn't get an article. Every storm from this year that warrants an article already has one. TornadoLGS (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS and Destroyeraa: we forgot one. Tropical Depression 10 was a fishspinner that had extremely minimal, if any, effects on Cape Verde. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 22:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. There is not enough notability to spin out an article for either of them. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. Dolly, Edouard, Gonzalo, Josephine, Kyle, Omar, Rene, Vicky, Wilfred, and More-To-Come are simply not notable and any attempts to create articles on them will be quickly squashed by an AGF revert. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 10:10, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose-we forgot Tropical Depression Ten. Now, Vicky could be an article for two reasons, but only two.
1. First, it claimed a life, but second(my new justification)
2. It was a "V" storm and broke numerous formation records, as well as having 5 tropical cyclones concurrently, which I believe happened twice while it was active.
However; Dolly, Ten, Kyle, Omar, and Winfred were fish storms, Eduoard and Rene did extremely light damage, and Gonzalo and Vicky are bordering on an article but we didn't make one.
Also, we could merge Tropical Storm Arthur, which did extremely light($112,000)in damages and didn't make landfall.
Hurricane Vince also did less damage then Vicky and was the other "V" storm, but just an article striking Iberia is significant. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 12:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
What does everyone think of merging Arthur per 67.85.37.186? 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 12:25, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Not every storm has to make landfall to have an article. Arthur brought impacts to the US, which typically warrants an article. Furthermore, not every storm that breaks a record needs to have an article, especially considering every storm after Edouard has broken a record. Vicky still doesn't need an article, even if it impacted Cabo Verde because multiple storms throughout a season do the same and don't necessarily end up with articles, especially if they don't impact land later on. The same goes for Gonzalo. I don't know what argument is being made for it, but it doesn't need to have an article. Every storm that has one, deserves one, and the ones that don't, do not need one. Gum balls 678 talk 12:33, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I, personally, am an inclusionist, and I do not believe that Arthur should be merged, as to not make the 2020 AHS article become even more bloated than it is. Its readable prose size alone is... wait for it... 74 kb. Too much, I believe. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 12:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. And with potentially more storms coming in the season, that will only grow larger. I'll accept merging Arthur if someone has a good explanation on why it should be Gum balls 678 talk 13:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes. And that should be a message for anyone who likes creating articles for non notable fish storms. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 13:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I withdraw my Vicky and Arthur claims, but Gonzalo could use an article. Yes, it only did a few thousand dollars in damage, and didn't kill anyone, but it's rare for a tropical storm to affect S America, and it was expected to be worse(we can make a huge preporations section). --67.85.37.186 (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Delta Wind Glitch

NOAA, NHC And The Weather Channel (TWC) Has Officially Downgraded Delta To A Tropical Depression I Tried To Put Delta To 35 MPH But Just Stays At Storm! Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 15:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricanestudier123: There is no glitch; you have to change other parameters in the infobox. You need to have category= depression and type= tropical depression. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

I Did It And Did Not Work Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 02:18, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricanestudier123: You may have been editing the hidden hurricane infobox instead of the then-visible "current hurricane" infobox. And please stop capitalizing the first letter of every word.TornadoLGS (talk) 20:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Record activity

Would we be able to create a new section (or subsection, as in the article for the 2005 hurricane season) dedicated to discussing the records set or tied during the 2020 season? I feel there have been enough to justify this. Just a partial list I can think of, mostly mentioned somewhere in the article in its current state:

Seasonal records

Earliest named storms (including the table currently there)
Consecutive seasons with pre-season activity
Most active May
Most active July
Most active September
Most US landfalling tropical cyclones
Most Louisiana landfalling tropical cyclones
Most storms named in a single day (by the way, did the three in 1893 also occur within 6 hours, or were they only the same day?)

Individual storm records

Hurricane Laura: Strongest hurricane at landfall in Louisiana
Hurricane Paulette: Possible records including most other tropical cyclones forming during lifespan, also I think I saw something that had to do with its redevelopment
Hurricane Sally: Record one-day rainfall at Pensacola, FL (18.17 in)
Subtropical storm Alpha: Easternmost forming tropical or subtropical cyclone
Subtropical storm Alpha: First tropical or subtropical cyclone to make landfall in mainland Portugal
Hurricane Delta: Fastest intensification from tropical depression to category 4 hurricane (28 hours) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mvhcmaniac (talk • contribs) 17:52, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Mvhcmaniac: There doesn't need to be an entire section for records because most of them can either be included in the storm's article--or on the storm's summary if it does not an article. Because many of these are trivial, an entire section is unnecessary. And most of them are summarized in the lead. Gum balls 678 talk 18:17, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Too trivial so I removed it. 🌀Hurricane Janor (talk) 02:19, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Mvhcmaniac: Maybe we could add this for post season shenanigans, but we should probably wait until the season is over. Also, I don't believe data from the 19th century is usually acceptable, (though maybe I'm just an idiot) so you're probably good on the wind thing. Gex4pls (talk) 02:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Mvhcmaniac, Gumballs678, HurricaneJanor, and Gex4pls: I numbered the records. For the season records, 1 was already listed, 2, 3, and 4 are all trivial, 5 is ok, 6 is ok, 7 is too trivial, 8 is original research. For the individual storm records, 1 is probably already listed, 2 is too trivial, 3 is absolutely not important, 4 is already put, and 5 is already in the article. 6 is also in the article. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 02:29, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

What does trivial even mean? 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 10:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it's all that trivial. Yes, it is for the main article. If we create Records of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season, a page meant to be trivial, I'll support this proposal. I agree that Delta's record should be mentioned. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 18:27, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Listing fatalities

Is there a "standard" way of displaying fatalities on each hurricane's page? As of now I'm noticing three different ways, first being in the "X total" format, second being in the "X direct, Y indirect" format, and third being in the plain "X" format. Shouldn't we display everything in the same format? If you agree let me know which method you think is best. Hurricane21 (talk) 05:05, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Option 3, I believe, is the standard one. Option B is for very recent seasons. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 09:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks for letting me know. I'll update everything using that format. Hurricane21 (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

No... the word total is used when we cant figure out the direct and indirect numbers. The plain Jane is when only direct deaths occur. Noah^Talk 16:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I see, I'll update again to include "total" next to the number. Hurricane21 (talk) 17:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you said the word "total" is used when we can't figure out direct vs indirect numbers but I have seen the number listed in the "X total" format even when we do have the direct vs indirect count. My original question was shouldn't we just stick to one format instead of randomly displaying the numbers in different formats on different pages? Also how about on the season page itself? Sometimes I see the total listed as one number and sometimes I see it broken down into direct and indirect in the "X (Y)" format. Should we stick to one format there as well? And If so which one? Hurricane21 (talk) 17:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: The X total and the X direct, Y indirect are both acceptable. For example, some articles use the X total format, while others like Hurricane Florence use the X direct, Y indirect format.~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:36, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane21: I prefer X and Y format. For example, Andrew killed 60% of people indirectly and some post storm. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Sally damage revision

Guys chill! I swear yesterday it said Sally's damages were at 5 billion. Now it's at 7 billion. These revisions are happening everyday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyclonicStormYutu (talk • contribs) 14:34, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

@CyclonicStormYutu: that’s what the sources say. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 17:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Faster Archiving

IMO 14 days is too long for the amount of threads we have. I propose we reduce this to maybe 7 days? --67.85.37.186 (talk) 17:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll reduce it to 10 days. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 17:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 October 2020

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I feel Fay and Isaias affected the same area, so should be mentioned. IE, we talk about Fay and then Isaias. We can mention Hannah later. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 00:00, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

For clarification-this is because they hit the area. We could say, "throughout the seasons, 2 tropical storms struck the NYC Metro Area. While Fay wasn't a major deal, Isaias was the worst storm in the region since 2012's Hurricane Sandy. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 00:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I would lean against this. It's better to keep the storms in chronological order. It's not all that uncommon for somewhere to be impacted by two tropical cyclones in a season, an NYC doesn't warrant that much special attention. TornadoLGS (talk) 00:56, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Isaias was the worst storm since Sandy. We should add that. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 00:57, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Not done These are disputed questions to be worked out here on the talk page. It is also not an urgent enough issue to require editing through full protection. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Records page

I think there should be a separate Wikipedia page on the Records of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season. CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 13:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

IDK if it's needed. There aren't that many records set by the season, and most of them are activity records, which can be covered in the "Season summary" section. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I'd second that. If it's just a page saying "x storm formed before y storm" then we already have that under each storm and in "Season Summary," as you mentioned, and these records already fit into the general Atlantic Hurricane Records page. A seperate page would probably just be redundant. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Hurricane Laura had the fastest wind speed of a storm striking Louisiana
Hurricane Sally was the first hurricane to strike as a category 2 peak intensity since 2014
Alpha was the first storm to hit Portugal
Isaias was the costliest cat 1 and Sally was the costliest cat 2
Delta had the fastest intensifcation from a tropical depression to category 4, in 36 hours. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 15:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Number 1 is already in the the article I think, number 2 is trivial, number 3 is already in the article, number 4 is OR, and number 5 is already in the article I think. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:38, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
@Destroyeraa: I added the information in but it got reverted. So no, it’s not in the article. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 15:48, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Also, to note more records...

Tropical Storm Fay was the first fully tropical storm to hit New Jersey since 2011
Hurricane Teddy was the 4th largest hurricane on record

Also, this is a page MEANT to be trivial. So, your argument for #3 does not hold up. 67.85.37.186 (talk) 15:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Still, creating this page is absolutely unnecessary per Hurricanehink. Most are activity records, the only few records that are not activity records nor are entirely meaningless are the ones about Laura, Alpha, Delta, and possibly Fay and Teddy. The rest are OR or plain meaningless. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
  - And FWIW, we used to have an article for 2005 Atlantic hurricane season statistics, but that got merged. We don't want to make a content fork. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
    - I forgot a few that isn't trivial. Nana almost extended to the Pacific and became Tropical Storm Julio. There are a few other records, for example, Tropical Storm Bertha formed right off the South Carolina coast. That's gotta be a record. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 16:11, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
      - Those are observations, not records. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 16:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
        No, they aren't. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
        I second Nova Crystallis here. Bertha forming off the SC coast isn't a record. Nana didn't survive the journey, only the remnant energy. Many storms have done that over the years. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
        Yeah, one such example is of Amanda and Cristobal earlier this year.🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 16:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
        And we have a page on crossovers and almost-crossovers because of this. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:48, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
        Also, Bertha forming right off of the coast isn't a record of any sort, there have been many cyclones that have done something similar. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 16:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- You could literally say "x storm was the first storm to attain y intensity on z day of the week and hold its intensity for a days and then strike b county after having been given c name." anything is unique if you pun enough detail into it, but at some point that detail is just too fine to be worth mentioning. That's the case with at least #2 and probably most of the other ones. Also Sally and Fay aren't really records anyway. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
  - We can't always list every single possible record that might exist. Some of the records mentioned above are petty and getting tedious. If this keeps up the Guinness Book of Records would require a thousand books to list them all instead of one.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I have no idea why some of these "records" are considered to be notable. It feels like every season records are broken which makes them a common thing in regards to tropical systems. I mean do we really need to put that x storm was the 3rd strongest in or since y? As an encyclopedia we can't stray into WP:FANCRUFT related things (WP:INDISCRIMINATE). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Section?

nah. not a page, because that's excessive, but maybe a section in the summary because god DAMN this season Hurricanehuron33 (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
.Section instead of article. We only have a few records. We could also make a record for Isaias, as again, it was the worst storm in the NYC Area since 2012.
I don't even think that is needed. Most individual storm sections and pages have most of the records on storm formation, "worst storm in x since y," etc. Many of the others file in well in the dedicated Atlantic Hurricane Records page. (formation speed, speed of intensification, # of total storms in a year, etc) We can just save this section and it should cut down on the length that this article will have (because it will be massive already) and help expedite the article's later review. DarkSide830 (talk) 17:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
oppose It's not uncommon for individual storms in a season to set local/regional records. A lot of storms could break records if you set narrow enough criteria. Those records probably aren't really worth noting outside of the individual sections for the storms. The most notable records are all the instances of "earliest xth name storm," which is sufficiently summarized in the table we currently have. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The records were already mentioned in various parts of the article. Do we have to make another section repeating them?--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

No... the records would be merged into one section with a single mention. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

If we were to do that all the sentences popping on each individual storm regarding "earliest formation" would have to go...this may disrupt the flow of events because they would all be clunked into one place...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:36, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Which is honestly one reason a we shouldn't have a dedicated records section. If a particular storm broke a record worth mentioning, it should go in that storm's section. TornadoLGS (talk) 20:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: I can agree if you add the following records.

Laura tied the 1856 Last Island Hurricane for fastest winds on landfall in Louisiana, and had the 4th most intense pressure
Fay was the first fully tropical storm to hit New Jersey since Hurricane Irene in 2011
Teddy was the 4th biggest tropical system on record
Delta underwent the fastest intensification from a tropical depression to a category 4: 36 hours
Alpha was the first tropical or subtropical storm to directly hit Portugal
Including the extratropical portion of Paulette; it lasted 23 days-a record in the Atlantic.

--67.85.37.186 (talk) 20:57, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

If Paulette had remained tropical 23 days straight it would have been a record, but since it became extratropical, it doesn't count. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 21:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The Paulette record is WP:OR, and the extratropical parts don't count. So it lasted only around 10 days. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, another person already mentioned making a separate page about the same exact thing, and it was found to be too trivial and pointless to make a page for records only, as you can put the storm records on the page of the system itself. Also, the records you mention are exactly the same as those on the previous discussion on the same topic. It sort of seems to be WP:POINTy, or possibly WP:DEADHORSE, but I am not completely sure.🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 21:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

No for section. Seeing these pointless discussions, I'm beginning to feel like a dead horse. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:00, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Just mention them in prose when sourced and appropriate. No need for a separate page. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 02:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Strong oppose any records section/article per TornadoLGS who highlights the problem well. Nearly any storm can be framed as record-breaking with sufficiently narrow criteria, so where do you draw the line? Listing "record" after "record" (some of which I note are of questionable accuracy and others nearly impossible to source) reeks of sensationalism and almost certainly violates WP:NPOV. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 08:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Fully protected edit request on 15 October 2020

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Epsilon's nhc track isn't shown next to the storm in it's infobox. Can you please fix this? CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

comment-page is unprotected. --98.116.128.15 (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Not done the page is no longer protected, @CyclonicStormYutu: you may edit it directly as appropriate. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Epsilon dab page

Currently, the dab page for Hurricanes Epsilon from 2005 is located as Tropical Storm Epsilon, to which Hurricane Epsilon is a redirect. It Since both storms reached hurricane status, should that be the other way around? TornadoLGS (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

There is also a recently created List of storms named Epsilon, which I have redirected to the current DAB page. Drdpw (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Hyperactive

@MarioProtIV: per WP:BRD, I disagree about calling this season hyperactive unless there is an authoritative source explicitly referring to it as such. While this is an extreme season in terms of the number of named storms, the only definition of hyperactivity that I am aware of is based solely on ACE. I'm afraid calling it hyperactive on any other basis would be original research. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this. I'm not sure if there's an official "definition" for hyperactivity other than how its described in an ACE value, which as it stands, the season does not yet meet that requirement. I think its better-suited to say that activity has occurred at a record pace, or however, it was worded prior to the addition of the "hyperactive" in the lead. If the season ends up with an ACE that qualifies as hyperactive, then we can mention it then. Gum balls 678 talk 18:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

2017 was hyperactive due to a high ACE, but also 17 storms making it the 12th most active season(behind 2019,1969,1887,1995,2010,2011,2012,1933,2020 and 2005). It had 3 storms with ACE's over 40-Hurricane Irma, Hurricane Maria and Hurricane Jose. However, I would call this season hyperactive–even due to the lack of category 5s, hyperactive, because clearly it's a rough season. Then again, only 36% of our tropical storms even intensified to hurricanes, and not until Hurricane Hanna. Therefore, I oppose this sentence. --67.85.37.186 (talk) 20:40, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Just because we had a high amount of storms this year doesn't mean it was Hyperactive. It is above average in terms of Ace, but for a season to be truly hyperactive it has to have a certain amount of ace per what the users above said. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 18:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh. I was writing that in because every one else was. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Lol, it's all good. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 04:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Ace

I know that this has been brought up before, but I want to get some opinions on it. Lately I have been seeing discussion in which people say that this season has been "Hyperactive." This sort of stemmed from the previous discussion on the talk page, that kind of just went old without any clear idea as to whether this season truly is hyperactive. I know that it is Above average in activity, but I honestly don't know that this season is truely hyperactive. Two points:

Many of the storms this year have been weak and short-lived. That isn't to say that we haven't had the major impacts of Laura, Isaias, Sally, Delta, and Hanna that have become severe hurricanes along with all of the other hurricanes that have formed out over the Atlantic, but even so, our Ace is only in the 120's.
2017 was a hyperactive year, and despite having less named storms, had an Ace of over 200. (225-226)

I am just confused on how exactly ace is measured and how seasons are measured on storm strength. Is it classified on how many storms form in a season and how many rack up a large number of ace points? Is it determined by the number of ace points is made by each system only? Any thoughts and replies would be much appreciated. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 21:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

ACE is measured by a storm's duration and intensity once it reaches tropical storm strength and only measured on full advisories."hyperactivity" from how I understand it is only used for ACE, which 2020 does not yet meet the threshold for. Hyperactivity begins at about 153 units as long as a season has at least 10 hurricanes or 5 major hurricanes. Hope this helps a little bit! Gum balls 678 talk 21:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah okay. Yeah that does help, Thank you! That clears up a lot about what I was wondering about. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 21:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

2020 is close to hyperactive. We only need 20 more ace and one more major to be hyperactive. It will do it soon. 71.172.254.114 (talk) 21:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

What's helpful about that is the massive number of storms but low ACE is that given there was a note suggested about that the season was very active despite having many short-lived storms. It's a good quantitative way to make that point. DarkSide830 (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes indeed, I agree. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 02:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

(Redacted)

I would like to see a source for NOAA calling this season or any hyperactive. The publically available criteria for ranking seasons doesn't use the term - instead they use the term extremely active. I would also point out that the way that ACE is calculated varies from center to center. Some like the IMD and the UKMO take it from tropical depression level, while CSU used to use it for just hurricanes.Jason Rees (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh okay, I didn't know that "hyperactive" was not the actual term. I was confused as I keep seeing people term this season that, and also people don't really know what a extremely active season is. Interesting, that makes sense as different centers have different classifications for cyclones, so like you said they would have a different way of calculations. Thanks for bringing that up and giving some clarification. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 18:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jason Rees: I want to point out that the CSU [14] now uses ACE for all storms with wind speeds of Tropical storm force or more. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: Hence the words used to :P Jason Rees (talk) 20:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Lead length

This is just a heads up that I tagged the lead for being too long at 6 paragraphs. This is a cleanup issue that can always be addressed when the season officially ends. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:31, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Knowledgekid87: Yeah. Looked at 2005 compared to this one. Wow. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 20:36, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Let me ping everyone else. @Cyclonebiskit, Robloxsupersuperhappyface, Destroyeraa, Typhoon2013, CyclonicStormYutu, KN2731, Hurricane21, Hurricanehuron33, Nova Crystallis, Hurricane Noah, Pierre cb, and HurricaneLaura2020:

We can probably start cleaning it up now, but yeah it probably would be a good idea to wait (To do anything major) until there is not as much chaos from active systems.🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 20:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

My guess would be to get rid of the timeline in the lead since we already have a section that is specifically for that anyway.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:23, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah true, we could probably do that. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 21:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

We could probably just get rid of it entirely (if a user really wanted to see specifics on each storm, I think they probably wouldn't be too inconvenienced to scroll down a bit), maybe including only the MOST notable storms and records (i.e Laura, Sally, maybe Delta, Gamma, and Isais) in a paragraph between the intro and the covid paragraphs. It would still be best to wait until the season ends, as there may be more destructive storms on the way. Gex4pls (talk) 21:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I am all for it, remove the most notable storms, maybe also remove other storms, and clean it up. CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 21:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Hurricanehink, TornadoLGS, LightandDark2000, DarkSide830, Yellow Evan, Gumballs678, Drdpw, and Chicdat: to see what they have to say about the subject as well if they choose to. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 22:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Just organize it like 2018 or 2019s, I could help a little. Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 23:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I had an idea to create a separate section for the COVID-19 concerns Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Knowledgekid87: Condensed down to four paragraphs, which should be better. Kudos Robloxsupersuperhappyface for doing the lengthy middle section of the lede. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:45, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Definitely looks better. The information being presented in the lead is sufficient for people to get the gist of the season. It's not overly lengthy or wordy for the amount of activity that has occurred. I'm sure we can clean it up more once the season ends, if need be, but for now, it works. Gum balls 678 talk 00:15, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Robloxsupersuperhappyface, for condensing the lead. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 10:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah definitely, thank you for doing that. 🌀Weatherman27🏈 (talk). 17:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

TD28 article draft

I’m going to make an article for TD28 since it’s threatening land areas at this moment. Let me know what you think. Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with it here as it will likely be Zeta impacting land. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems good, especially as this storm looks like its gonna be record tying/ breaking. Send a link when ur ready Gex4pls (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@Gex4pls: here! I like hurricanes (talk) 23:48, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Once the cyclone affects Cuba with enough impacts (flooding, power outages, deaths), the draft can be moved into mainspace. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@I like hurricanes: great! ~~Maybe mention the threat to the gulf coast of the US as well?~~ alright, now we just wait for this to upgrade, then we can probably post. Gex4pls (talk) 01:05, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Gex4pls (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Deaths

I've seen a few news stories of a man killed by landslide from rain in jamaica and daughter missing. I think it is associated to Zeta. https://www.stabroeknews.com/2020/10/24/news/regional/jamaica/double-tragedy-in-jamaica-father-killed-daughter-missing-after-landslide-covers-house/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:129A:8700:683A:2D9A:56AE:8535 (talk) 10:24, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems to be a bit far from Zeta, but it's entirely possible it's from Zeta's rain. Or it could be just Caribbean moisture that fell as rain. What do you guys think? - User: CoolStuffYT 14:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Very likely from Zeta. The NHC said the outer rain bands were affecting Jamaica and the

Caymans yesterday. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Zeta new death

Earlier i posted about the father dying in a landslide from Zeta I am sad to say that the daughter is dead http://radiojamaicanewsonline.com/local/body-of-15-year-old-girl-recovered-from-rubble-of-collapsed-house-in-shooters-hill-st-andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:129A:8700:683A:2D9A:56AE:8535 (talk) 15:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Done ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:10, 25 October 2020 (UTC)