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Requested move 15 June 2024

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2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel – I believe that enough time has passed since the last RM (which proposed the simpler "7 October attacks" name and closed with consensus to retain the current title) to re-propose a title change for this article. I believe that "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" is the WP:COMMONNAME for this event, as seen in sources such as:

  • Al Jazeera: "... counter the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, which saw ..."
  • Bloomberg: "... trapped in Gaza since the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, which prompted ..."
  • CBC: "... around the world since the Hamas-led attacks on Israel of Oct. 7 but are now ..."
  • CNN: "... from the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel being held ..."
  • Euracitiv: "... triggered by the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel in which ..."
  • France24: "Before the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel that triggered ..."
  • ISW: "... spokesperson claimed that the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel was retaliation ..."
  • Middle East Eye: "Following the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel and subsequent ..."
  • NPR: "... Palestinian armed groups since the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel that set off the war ..."
  • NYTimes: "... including some who participated in the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, and that ..."
  • Reuters: "... were involved in the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel that precipitated ..."
  • Times of Israel: "... during and after the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel."
  • The Conversation: "... participated in the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, which resulted ... "
  • WaPo: "Since the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, restrictions have ..."

Many sources simply say "7 October" or "October 7 attacks" instead of spelling out the full name, but I believe that while "7 October attacks" could be a more COMMON name, I think that it fails WP:AT#Precision in favor of "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel." DecafPotato (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a different suggestion: why not title the article just "October 7th attacks." It seems rather pointless to mention that Hamas carried out the attack. The 9/11 oage isn't title "September 11th Al-Qaeda attacks", after all. So, why should the standard on this page be any different? NesserWiki (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • attacks and *page
NesserWiki (talk) 11:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, virtually all the major RS use the date "October 7" when describing Hamas' attacks, it's pretty weird we are the only ones we don't. Galamore (talk) 18:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The quotes and sources provided above confirm what I thought was true for a long time: the words 'October 7' must appear in this article title. I can add to this list a recent report from Human Rights Watch which uses also use it "October 7 assault".[3]
I'd also support a move to October 7 attacks, which is more concise so better in my opinion, but 'October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel' is okay too. HaOfa (talk) 07:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*::: @Hameltion as a name it's just English: 7 October, Arabic: 7 أكتوبر (day first, read right to left) and October 7 in American. Other pages add "attack" because 7 October is in use for "on this day". MWQs (talk) 22:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*::@DecafPotato but none of those have a long description, by 8 October 2024 anyone adding that much detail will add a year. MWQs (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*:@Kashmiri It is definitely the common name, but just 7 October, not the proposed title. I agree with you about consistency, we should do common name OR consistent description, not mix them, the proposed title is a bit of a mess that isn't common or consistent. We can't just call it 7 October but as @DecafPotato points out, adding just "attacks" to be 7 October attacks would be consistent with others. But I very strongly support 7 October not October 7, the others were in the USA, this wasn't, The month first thing is used more often in sources with POV problems (e.g. Eylon Levi), day first is common in a wider range of sources and is more readable to most of the world. MWQs (talk) 20:02, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*oppose prpposed title but would support the title changing to "7 October attacks" by itself. The long description with a year-less date is weird, and not consistent with other pages. The common name is 7 October, nobody calls it the proposed title. MWQs (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)Sock of banned editor[reply]

:: Also, putting all those elements in at once (7 October + Hamas + attack on Israel) sounds like the introduction to an Eylon Levy speech (he tended to pile in 3 different slogans before he got to a verb). To me "Hamas" sounds weird, because the attacks were the Qassam Brigades, Hamas is more the name for the political party, it's like saying Sinn Fein did a bombing spree instead of attributing that to the IRA. We can justify "7 October" OR "Hamas" being included as the common name in English, but both sounds like Eylon Levy. MWQs (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC) :::@DecafPotato I just noticed you did find cases where people had written that combination of words, the Eylon effect is just the effect of saying it out loud. But I agree with @Kashmiri that "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" won't be said in the 2030s, because by 8 October 2024 anybody adding that much detail will add the year. But there is a precedent for 7 October attacks by itself persisting as a common name, but not your proposal. MWQs (talk) 22:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer "7 October attacks" over the current title, for what it's worth. In the initial comment I conceded that it's likely a more common name than my proposed title but made an argument about WP:PRECISION in favor of including "Hamas-led" and "on Israel." But if editors disagree with that argument my position is very amendable to "7 October attacks." DecafPotato (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

::Also, I was have been considering suggesting a chang from "Hamas-led" to "Hamas-initiated" because some of it was planned but "go that way and do some violence" describes their leadership for about 2/3 of it. Changing it to just 7 October attacks solves the led vs initiated problem as well. MWQs (talk) 20:46, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose per Kashmiri, this attempt to include the 7 October date has already failed a couple times in favor of formulations like the current title. This date is not meaningful to the average English speaking reader or if it is now, it will not be by this time next year.Selfstudier (talk) 17:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. "October 7" is the natural way to refer to the most recent October 7. If the yearless form lasts beyond its anniversary like "September 11" did, then it may be time to rename. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do believe that October 7 is the common name and that it is more recognizable than "2023". I reject the consistency argument and also reject that This date is not meaningful to the average English speaking reader. Especially when "Hamas-led attack on Israel" remains in the title, there should be no concern that readers won't know what we're talking about. However, I am not sure whether the move target should be 7 October or October 7. The local date format is, in fact, "7 October", but the English-language sources provided by the nom above show that reliable sources lean towards "October 7". Toadspike [Talk] 11:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on conciseness and long-term significance grounds. "7 October" is noticeably longer than "2023", and the possibility of Hamas launching another attack on another October 7 cannot be ruled out as the Gaza war is a current event. NasssaNser 14:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The second part of your comment is not only WP:CRYSTALBALL but also contradicts itself — how does the possibility that Hamas attacks Israel on the next October 7 mean that the title is too imprecise when Hamas attacked Israel many times over the course of 2023? DecafPotato (talk) 05:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support October 7 (or 7 October) is generally the most commonly used term by national and international newspapers, to the degree that it would even meet the requirements for a non-neutral title. But it’s not, and therefore the requirements are more than met. It’s also the way the term is colloquially used in political discussions and sometimes on wiki, which is a decent indication that it will remain the commonly used term at least in the near future. While we can’t know the actual future (and therefore any arguments that there might be a different name in the future hold limited weight), one could also argue that events commemorating this attack will likely use the same language that is utilised by Israel and other western countries, which is generally Oct. 7.
FortunateSons (talk) 07:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The vast majority of international media refers to the attack as the 7th October attack (or some variation of the date), therefore, it would appear that this is the WP:CommonName. A lot of weight is given to the date (7th October) when referring to the attack. I don't think I've ever seen anyone described the attack as the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel; the current title is certainly not the WP:CommonName. IJA (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but prefer October 7 attack on Israel or simply October 7 attack for brevity. Not sure why the title was changed back. October 7 attack seems the common name to me and seems uncontroversial and entirely free of POV concerns. My only concern would be what further specification is needed to differentiate it from other events internationally, and I think "on Israel" suffices. Unbandito (talk) 18:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Original close, overturned to "relist" at move review
The result of the move request was: Moved to 7 October attacks. There was clear consensus to move away from the current title as the date was found to be an important part of the WP:COMMONNAME. The arguments opposing the move largely relied on the idea of another attack on 7 October 2024 which was demmed WP:CRYSTALBALL by the discussion. No prejudice against another discussion between the original proposoed title and 7 October attacks. (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 14:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In order to not distract from my main argument, I've struck out that part.VR (Please ping on reply) 02:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose 7 October attacks or any title that is less WP:RECOGNIZABLE than the current one. It is a very significant event by all means, but it can also be seen as an escalation in a regional conflict that has lasted more than 100 years. In comparison the September 11 attacks were a pivotal moment in world history that make that title instantly recognizable. The same cannot be said about the term "7 October attacks" or similar, even though the event is much more recent. Vpab15 (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Oppose - We need a name, not an abstract, 7 October attacks was possibly a bit too non-specific, but 7 October attacks on Israel of 7 October 2023 attacks would be enough to disambigute it. There are other attacks on Israel that happened on the 7 October in other years, but they're not known by date? So it's not genuinely ambiguous. The only case that comes close is the October War, but that started with an attack on 6 October. MWQs (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC) :: Also, incitement is not leadership, so "Hamas-led" is not very accurate (nb - this as a criticism of them, not an excuse), but the date and the target are indisputable. MWQs (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose to any name change: opposing 7 October Hamas-led attack as misleading since the attack lasted for 2 days after at least as well; and opposing just 7 October attacks as this is not used in majority of RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But it is used by the majority of sources... HaOfa (talk) 07:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Where is your evidence for this? I'm yet to see evidence for this claim. IJA (talk) 04:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - On reflection, I now oppose this move, having previously offered my support for same. This is because there have been several attacks in the region on the 7th October (2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and 2004 Sinai bombings) and referring to it as simply the 7 October Attack could lead to confusion. I'm not entirely convinced that "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" is the common name for this attack and I'm yet to see sufficient evidence stating that it is. Additionally, the attack lasted two days, not one day, therefore calling it the 7 October Attack is strange when it was still happening on the 8th October. I think the current title name is perfectly fine as it is. IJA (talk) 14:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support at this point it is very safe to say that the term "October 7" is used universally when describing the Hamas attack, not only in Israel but as people have shown here also in the world's leading media channels. I think the title should reflect this fact. Other attacks also happened in the same date, but only in this case, the date is the most common name of the event. PeleYoetz (talk) 16:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Let's go with the status quo, since there were no other attacks during 2023 initiated by Hamas; the one started in October 2023 constitutes an episode in the still -as of 2024- ongoing conflict. There is simply no additional information imparted by changing the title to what is proposed. Per WP:NC. -The Gnome (talk) 12:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The recent request move

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I thought that the request move was to change the article from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, not to 7 October attacks. It appears that the article has been unilaterally moved to a different title all together. I would have been less inclined to support the move had I known. User:Extorc, why did you move it to a different title all together? There has been other notable attacks on the date 7 October in the region such as the 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which occurred on the 7 October. That's why I supported a move to the title 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel as it was specific about which attack on the 7 October. IJA (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a somewhat unexpected decision. In general closes should only decide on the original proposal, since it's difficult to determine consensus regarding mid-discussion suggestions that not everyone noticed and commented on. In this case I don't think it was entirely unreasonable though, since it was a small discussion and at least three editors commented on the 7 October attacks option, with two preferring that option and one not being opposed to it. Not sure I fully agree with the call, but at least it seems like a good-faith close by a (non-admin) uninvolved editor. — xDanielx T/C\R 19:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't think it was a bad faith closure and subsequent move, however, I do think it lacks consensus. Additionally, with 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which also occurred on the 7 October; I do think this causes some confusion. I still believe that this article should be moved to "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" and that is what was being proposed in the RM. IJA (talk) 09:40, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, this should be taken to move review, as in addition to lacking widespread consensus, this was closed by a non-admin, in contravention of WP:BADNAC. Most worryingly, the closer is involved in the topic area [14]. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the linked edit, I don't think this user can really be considered "involved in the topic area", to be honest. HaOfa (talk) 13:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The close very clearly violates 3 out of 4 points outlined in WP:BADNAC: 1- involved editor 2- controversial move 3- little WP experience at 6,000 edits. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is quite a controversial move, therefore I think we have grounds to take it to Wikipedia:Move review. IJA (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024

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Have a look at the first sentence in the "Events leading to the attack" section:

Over the course of 2023, before the attack, increased settler attacks had displaced hundreds of Palestinians, and there were clashes around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, a contested holy site in Jerusalem.[1]

1. Displaced whom exactly? Is there a citation for this?

2. "Settler attacks"? Are we going to completely ignore the numerous attacks by Palestinians throughout 2023? Just to name a few:

  • May 12th - Hundreds of rockets launched towards Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-palestinians-strikes-jihad-0d9d56b5c4fc2e8999105b05c8d30a2f

  • January 27th - Palestinian gunman killed 7, including 70 year old woman.

https://apnews.com/article/politics-israel-government-palestinian-territories-benjamin-netanyahu-fb2251b5b6c8ef73a21f87620d20090c#:~:text=JERUSALEM%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20A%20Palestinian,killed%20by%20police%2C%20officials%20said.

  • February 10th - Palestinian driver killed 2 Israelis (including a 6-year-old boy) and injured 5 others.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-10/ty-article/.premium/several-injured-in-suspected-ramming-attack-in-jerusalem/00000186-3b1c-dfa7-afee-ff7fc3e00000

  • April 7th - shooting attack in Tel Aviv, Italian tourist killed, several others wounded.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-april-7-2023/

  • June 20th - Palestinians opened fire on a group of Israelis, killing 4 and injuring 4 others.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-20/ty-article/at-least-1-israeli-wounded-in-suspected-west-bank-shooting/00000188-d8fb-d5fc-ab9d-dbfb7e9e0000

  • August 1st - Palestinian shot and wounded 6 Israelis.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-01/ty-article/man-shot-after-suspected-shooting-attack-in-west-bank-settlement-near-jerusalem/00000189-b124-ddac-a3cd-b575ba010000

  • August 5th - Palestinian killed an Israeli.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/05/world/middleeast/palestinian-shooting-israel-tel-aviv.html

  • August 19th - Palestinian killed 2 Israelis.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/19/two-israelis-killed-by-suspected-palestinian-gunman 3. Maybe explain why there were clashes near Temple Mount?

Here is my proposal:

In the months leading up to the attack, Palestinian violence against Israelis escalated significantly, including hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza towards Israeli cities, as well as numerous shooting and car-ramming attacks that resulted in multiple Israeli fatalities.

Citations:

2A0D:6FC2:4000:400:97EC:26:BBEC:F991 (talk) 12:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read WP:SYNTH? A reliable source that directly supports the proposed wording is required. Do any of your sources do that? In other words, we can't conclude, based on individual samples, that a pattern or trend exists and write things like "In the months leading up to the attack..." etc. A reliable source has to do that. Then we can cite it. We are not reliable sources. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. I agree with you. Can we conclude, based on 0 samples or citations, that "Over the course of 2023, before the attack, increased settler attacks had displaced hundreds of Palestinians"?
2. If we're going to include the Temple Mount clashes, and we want a complete background, then we should also include the "numerous shooting and car-ramming attacks that resulted in multiple Israeli fatalities" that my sources support, as well as the May 2023 war launched by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 2A0D:6FC2:4000:400:97EC:26:BBEC:F991 (talk) 12:27, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current text is supported by the AP article. You'll need to find a source that discussed the attacks by Palestinians in 2023 prior to the start of the war. Alaexis¿question? 17:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result

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We cannot have the result say 'inconclusive or Hamas victory'; that is in direct violation of the rules regarding a military info-box. I’m not even trying to be political, but it does not make sense to say, 'well, you see, Hamas either won or didn’t win, we don’t know.' I keep saying this: an info-box can only say X Victory, Y Victory, or inconclusive. LuxembourgLover (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think such instructions in infobox docs can be ignored when there's a good reason, but in this case I'd support just removing the field, since the result is a matter of perspective and we can't fit any meaningful assessment in a few words. — xDanielx T/C\R 18:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need a new infobox - "Infobox mass atrocity". I don't really like the binary choice between "civilian attack" and "military conflict", as they don't capture the spectrum of incidents (for instance, the term "civilian" can be ambiguous – in a huge number of contexts we'd prefer combatant vs non-combatant). — kashmīrī TALK 19:44, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update, the new resulte is no better. LuxembourgLover (talk) 14:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas' own words

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Is there room on this article for the actual Hamas statement on the attack - https://twitter.com/pmofa/status/1710630801379922370 - or do we continue with the established tradition of ignoring Palestinian voices? Specifically the sentence: "Hamas said its attack was in response to the continued Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, the blockade of the Gaza Strip, the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, rising Israeli settler violence, and recent escalations." This should, at the very least, have a link to their own Press Release. Mcdruid (talk) 08:58, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the war crimes and atrocities section should be updated following 2 reports from HRW

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https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/17/october-7-crimes-against-humanity-war-crimes-hamas-led-groups https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/07/17/i-cant-erase-all-blood-my-mind/palestinian-armed-groups-october-7-assault-israel Monochromemelo1 (talk) 23:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ "Israel declares war, goes after Hamas fighters and bombards Gaza". Associated Press. 7 October 2023. Archived from the original on 8 October 2023. Retrieved 7 October 2023.
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