Talk:2023 Pakistan ration distribution stampedes

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Pakistan: Sindh / Karachi Low‑importance

	Pakistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Sindh.
	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Karachi, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Pakistani history.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

"Stampede" or "crowd crush"[edit]

Stampede is a loaded word as it apportions blame to the victims for behaving in an irrational, self-destructive, unthinking and uncaring manner, it's pure ignorance, and laziness ... It gives the impression that it was a mindless crowd only caring about themselves, and they were prepared to crush people.

In virtually all situations it is usually the authorities to blame for poor planning, poor design, poor control, poor policing and mismanagement.

Edwin Galea, professor of fire safety engineering at the University of Greenwich, England^[1]

If you look at the analysis, I've not seen any instances of the cause of mass fatalities being a stampede. People don't die because they panic. They panic because they are dying.^[2]

Keith Still

... far from mass panic occurring, being in an emergency can create a common identity amongst those affected. A consequence of this is that people are cooperative and altruistic towards others – even when amongst strangers, and/or in life–threatening situations.^[3]

Cocking, Dury

In an edit summary reverting my bold deletion of a "stampede" category, User:Jim Michael 2 writes The ibox title should be the same as that of the article. Many RS & our title say they were stampedes. There aren't crush cats by year or country.

The unchallenged consensus of scientific assessment is that humans only stampede to get away from mortal danger, such as fire. Nobody stampedes toward danger: people die because they have been crushed from behind, and that has happened because of incompetent policing or stewardship.^[2]

The popular media use click bait terms like "stampede" because it sells, not because of any reasoned analysis. The authorities use the term "stampede" because it allows them to blame the victims and thus evade responsibility for their incompetence. Wikipedia is not a tabloid, it should not descend to sloppy tabloid journalists' level. The existing cats need to be renamed. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While there may be unchallenged consensus of scientific assessment that humans don't stampede towards mortal danger, there seems to be no such consensus that humans never stampede toward anything at all. In this case, there were at least 9 deaths by trampling, not by crushing or suffocation. It seems to be that the RS using the term "stampede" isn't so egregiously wrong that we as wikipedia editors need to correct them.

As anything on wikipedia, article content is determined by what can be found in sources. The content of this article should be primarily based on sources about this individual crowd disaster. If you object to the language on "stampede" vs "crowd crush" grounds, that should be discussed at the relevant larger articles for those topics. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People get crushed so that they slide to the ground and the fluid mass of people continues over them. They have not been trampled egregiously by free runners.

This article is one of many where the traditional term "stampede" has been used in an undifferentiated manner by reliable sources, thereby creating a problem for Wikipedia on how best to describe these events. I have opened a discussion at Talk:Crowd collapses and crushes#Stampede categories: rename, replace, something else? to discuss. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Lock, Samantha (1 November 2022). "Crowd crushes: how disasters like Itaewon happen, how can they be prevented, and the 'stampede' myth". The Guardian.
^ ^a ^b Benedictus, Leo (3 October 2015). "Hajj crush: how crowd disasters happen, and how they can be avoided". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2 July 2019. Retrieved 4 October 2015.
^ Cocking, Christopher; Drury, John (November 2012). "The psychology of crowd behaviour in emergency evacuations: Results from two interview studies and implications for the Fire and Rescue Services". Irish Journal of Psychology. 30 (1): 59–73. doi:10.1080/03033910.2009.10446298.

[1] Lock, Samantha (1 November 2022). "Crowd crushes: how disasters like Itaewon happen, how can they be prevented, and the 'stampede' myth". The Guardian.

[Benedictus-2] Benedictus, Leo (3 October 2015). "Hajj crush: how crowd disasters happen, and how they can be avoided". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2 July 2019. Retrieved 4 October 2015.

[3] Cocking, Christopher; Drury, John (November 2012). "The psychology of crowd behaviour in emergency evacuations: Results from two interview studies and implications for the Fire and Rescue Services". Irish Journal of Psychology. 30 (1): 59–73. doi:10.1080/03033910.2009.10446298.

[1]

[2]

[3]