Talk:2024–2025 Georgian constitutional crisis

Which side are protestors on?

Currently the article says "Many people in Georgia have protested in the streets following the current president's refusal to step down." This sounds as if people are protesting against Zourabichvili's decision not to step down. I thought the protests were mostly in support of Zourabichvili. What do the sources say? Does the wording need to be clarified? (I had already edited the wording slightly before noticing this problem.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Coppertwig: That source is from 28 Dec, before the inauguration, and the whole paragraph by SimpleSubCubicGraph was extremely confusing. In this edit, I've tried to keep the main points from the text that actually match the source.

Regarding the question, it's rather Zourabichvili who is supporting the protestors than vice versa - the protestors primarily want (1) new, fair elections and (2) release of the detained protestors. Zourabichvili is continuing to support these goals based on all the more serious sources that I've seen. (She, probably wisely, chose to de-escalate any excuses for police violence by leaving the residence that she had moved to as the new presidential residence in Nov 2018, probably with the aim of keeping the focus on the protestors' aims rather than on her personally; I haven't seen this interpretation in a WP:RS (yet?).) And the mass protests did continue this evening 29 Dec, though we don't (yet) have that in the protests article. Boud (talk) 20:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I added a statement about the party's view as to whether it's pro-Russian or not, for balance. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Ivanishvili as effective ruler of Georgia

Since around 2021, Bidzina Ivanishvili has become increasingly clear, per the sources, as the de facto autocratic leader of Georgia. For convenience, here are the refs from the Ivanishvili article lead:

• title: "Oligarch Bidzina Ivanishvili - the real ruler of Georgia and the architect of Georgia's pro-Russian shift"
• observers have said he left only to continue pulling the strings in the background, "He is sacrificing his country's democracy and EU integration for his wealth, and he will put all his resources into maintaining power. Because only staying in power can guarantee his well-being," said Gakharia.
• title: "Bidzina Ivanishvili: Georgia's billionaire 'puppet master' betting the house on Moscow"
• 'Ivanishvili likes to treat things as a business corporation — whatever happens, he has several key positions that nobody can touch, from which his power originates,' explains Nodar Kharshiladze, founder of the Georgian Strategic Analysis Centre. 'One is the prosecutor's office, so he can influence legal decisions. The secret police, they’re always his guys, also the Interior Ministry, and he keeps a close watch on the National Bank — so law enforcement and money.'
• Bidzina Ivanishvili, the richest man in Georgia, who serves as the organisation's honorary chairman. In reality, he is the unaccountable and unchecked ruler of the country.

If there are any sources contradicting Ivanishvili as the de facto leader, please provide them. Boud (talk) 22:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I added this to a background section to make this a bit clearer in the article. Boud (talk) 22:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

References

WERE THE ELECTIONS RIGGED OR NOT?!

This needs to be discussed in every article on the topic (even if it's inconclusive). I am so sick and tired of these articles saying "X alleged", "Y alleged"—did Georgian Dream rig the elections or not? (And if it's genuinely unclear, then please for the love of God say so and explain why—were observers not allowed in? Does Georgia not release enough detailed precinct data for statistical analysis? Something else?) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This is what International Republican Institute which observed elections said:

• "The IRI mission concludes that Georgia’s parliamentary elections were fundamentally flawed due to a legal framework and regulatory practices that hindered genuine electoral competition, misuse of public resources by the ruling government, the targeting of civil society, obstruction of opposition parties, systematic voter intimidation, and lack of public confidence and trust in institutions."
• "Georgia’s institutions, including the Central Election Commission, the judiciary, and the government bureaucracy, functioned as arms of the ruling party rather than being independent and impartial. Reflecting on what IRI’s mission observed and on what has transpired since the election, only new elections can restore the Georgian people’s confidence in their government’s legitimacy"

--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Closed Limelike Curves: I allegedly ;) empathise with your frustration at "alleged", "alleged", "alleged". However, we're always going to get a mix of editors with different amounts of time they're willing to spend on searching for good sources and integrating all the info from the sources, and especially when it gets to an issue of numerical data, we have the reliability of open government data problem, with no simple solution but some ideas sketched in the WP:ROGD essay.

Anyway, regarding this particular election, consensus in summarising the higher quality sources is probably best first obtained over at Talk:2024 Georgian parliamentary election, where I see there is actually a talk page section open. Boud (talk) 14:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Parties

In my view, even if Bidzina is the "de facto ruler," it is still inappropriate to characterize the "parties" as "Opposition" and "Bidzina."

We don't do this in other conflicts. For instance, in 2019–2020 Hong Kong protests the parties are not listed as "protestors" and "Xi" even though Xi is the de facto ruler of Hong Kong, it's "protestors" and "Hong Kong government."

In the same way, the sides here should be "Opposition" and "Kobakhidze government," with Bidzina being listed under "lead figures" not as a side unto himself. Mosi Nuru (talk) 15:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)