Talk:2024 Hajj disaster

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Question[edit]

Had this been designated officially a disaster? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.197.124 (talk) 01:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new name[edit]

2024 Heat-Related Hajj Deaths Doyna Yar (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Doyna Yar: You might be looking to do Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves? I'll go ahead and open one. BurqueMesa (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 June 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that 2024 Hajj disaster be renamed and moved to 2024 Hajj extreme heat disaster.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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2024 Hajj disaster → 2024 Hajj extreme heat disaster – The current title does not mention extreme heat, which seems to be a principal cause of the disaster (1, 2, 3) (though unregistered pilgrims seem to be a contributing factor (4)). I propose the new title should be 2024 Hajj extreme heat disaster, 2024 Hajj extreme heat, 2024 Hajj heat wave disaster, or 2024 Hajj heat wave. BurqueMesa (talk) 22:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the proposed titles are in order of preference, with the first most preferred. BurqueMesa (talk) 22:24, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Support for 2024 Hajj heat wave "Extreme heat" and "disaster" sound too subjective. While most sources do not describe it as a "heat wave", enough do that I think it is fair to use.~~ Arcturus95 (talk) 22:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, see WP:UCRN. Extreme heat and variations thereof is used more often than heat wave, and extreme heat is a meteorological term for this type of event. BurqueMesa (talk) 23:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose but only for the lack of "disaster" as the article itself is more about the effects of the heatwave than the meteorological phenomenon itself. Augend (drop a line) 04:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with both @BurqueMesa's and @Augend's comments. Retracting my support for a specific new name, and instead supporting a change to any of the proposed alternatives. Arcturus95 (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider striking your original bolded !vote using <s></s> tags, to help the closer. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, that is what I was originally thinking to be the article title. I feel like “2024 Hajj disaster" is too ambiguous of a name. A heatwave kills btw. Look at other heatwave articles. They all list deaths. I don't see why this can't be call the "2024 Hajj heat wave". Alexysun (talk) 05:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer: these indented opposes and supports right here appear to be opposes and supports to "2024 Hajj heat wave", and not to the original RM suggestion of "2024 Hajj extreme heat disaster" –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that heat needs to be in the title, whether "extreme" or "wave". Forecasts are for this sort of thing to become more common and more extreme in the future, so it is questionable whether in a few decades 122 degrees will still be considered "extreme" heat. I would therefore go with a title like 2024 Hajj heat wave mass fatality incident. BD2412 T 02:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, titles should be appropriate for the current climate, not for the climate in a few decades. Also, "mass fatality incident" is not a frequently used term compared to simply "disaster." BurqueMesa (talk) 03:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was somehow poor management and less allocated resources and under trained officials as well. 46.153.41.254 (talk) 11:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BurqueMesa OPPOSE : This article about heat wave, crowd crush and other things like heart attack. I suggest to keep this title as same as it. Dssep (talk) 19:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose We have WP:SHORTDESC that takes care of the concerns raised here. — hako9 (talk) 21:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose a move to a longer title, neutral on changing the word "disaster" depending on how the article develops - currently I would not oppose "heatwave" instead of disaster" (whether one or two words). Titles should not be longer than necessary, and given we are unlikely to have another disaster to cover at the 2024 Hajj it doesn't seem necessary to say "heat wave deaths". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "2024 Hajj disaster" is fine as-is. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 12:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Spworld2 is there a reason you renamed the article while an open discussion is taking place? Celjski Grad (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the undiscussed move as an admin action. The template at the top of the article clearly states "Please do not move this article until the discussion is closed." and I do not see a consensus to move in the above discussion yet. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Celjski Grad,Novem LinguaeSorry, unknowingly happened and technically didn't notice the talk page !!, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spworld2 (talk • contribs)

Support Because this incident bears no resemblance to this name, Hajj is an event, it is an incident. The title should be the name of the place or the time the event was held, Actually the title now reads Hajj as a disaster, Incidents during the Hajj 2024 (The article is currently available:Incidents during the Hajj ) or 2024 Makkah extreme heat disaster should be changed to , it is not correct to title the event as a disaster. ~ User talk:Spworld2 talk 12:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The current name is inadequate as this was not a distinct disaster. And the heat is just a factor. The BBC explains, "One reason there are may be many deaths every year at the Hajj is that many pilgrims go towards the end of their life, after saving for a lifetime. Many Muslims also go in the hopes that if they die, it is during the Hajj - as it is considered to be a blessing to die and be buried in the holy city." So, the event will naturally be the occasion of many deaths which may not be viewed as a bad thing. A better title would be 2024 Hajj deaths or perhaps just 2024 Hajj so that all aspects of this year's event can be covered. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to deaths would be insensitive. Most people do not go there to die. We shouldn't be insinuating it as a death cult. And are you opposing a move or supporting a move? — hako9 (talk) 19:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Simply calling the event a "disaster" is ambiguous, point blank. Maybe it was the only situation that could be called a "disaster" regarding this year's Hajj, but most headlines regarding these fatalities mention heat. "2024 Hajj extreme heat disaster" presents as a tad verbose to me, but probably best describes the situation. Perhaps "2024 Hajj extreme heat fatalities" or just "2024 Hajj heat fatalities" would be best. The article is, strictly speaking, about fatalities caused by extreme heat after all. DarkSide830 (talk) 03:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

American victim[edit]

source linked for the two dead Americans doesn't speak about them at all Freavene (talk) 06:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“Two U.S. citizens were also reported dead.” Celjski Grad (talk) 08:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sorry i missed it Freavene (talk) 08:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]