Talk:2024 Libertarian National Convention

Chris-Chan Quandary

CWC got 2 write-in votes in the first round. I know it's been a rule for a very long time to not name or talk about Chris in any way, but this is an official proceeding of the third largest political party in the US. I feel like if the write-ins are known, there's a bit of an obligation to name them on the page. So I'm not sure what we should do here. Pickle Mon (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Specific write-in votes have been removed anyway because of WP:WEIGHT, so the point is moot. The same should probably be done retroactively for past conventions if someone else here has the spare time. Cerrathegreat (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Would like to share an update here as I've opened a more open-ended debate stage for how we should handle write-in candidates below. Feel free to participate and share your thoughts. Cerrathegreat (talk) 06:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Table

Why is there a fifth round column when we have no idea whether or not there will be a fifth round? SecretName101 (talk) 22:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Write-In Candidates

Per suggestion by Vader13289, I'd like to open a forum for discussion and debate for how convention articles should handle write-in candidates in the future. The inclusion of one particularly controversial individual seems to have lead to the temporary removal of some write-in candidates, with the redaction being cited under WP:WEIGHT. To ensure consistency between articles, I think we should decide how to handle this situation and update this, and other, articles accordingly. To begin the discussion, I'd like to propose five potential options.

1. Revert the changes by Ohnoitsjamie, listing all write-in candidates including this controversial individual. Administrators have made it clear that this is not an option.

2. List the first ballot write-in candidates as before, but remove this individual's name, instead listing this person as "other". Otherwise, list write-in candidates in full throughout these convention articles as has been standard practice.

3. Adapt standard practice to list all satirical write-in candidates as "other", unless these candidates are notable under WP:BLP. Retroactively apply this to all past convention articles.

4. Adapt standard practice to no longer list first ballot write-in candidates for these convention articles, as the first ballot tends to have the most write-in candidates, including those who are least significant. Retroactively apply this to all past convention articles.

5. Adapt standard practice to no longer list any write-in candidates for these convention articles. Retroactively apply this to all past convention articles. Cerrathegreat (talk) 06:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I honestly do not think this is any different from any obscure list article on Wikipedia. Just include the individual's name in the article, it is not that big of a deal. Master106 (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Listing every joke write-in candidate is a clear violation of WP:WEIGHT unless there is significant coverage of it in a reliable source. We don't enumerate write-ins for other major parties, and there's no reason to do so here. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Listing write-in candidates in a small convention does not really violate WEIGHT as the population of the convention was small in itself. Master106 (talk) 15:44, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Should I consider this support for option 3? While I agree with the sentiment overall, I do think we should apply it consistently if we decide to go ahead with it. Cerrathegreat (talk) 16:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What other convention articles enumerate every write in candidate who received less than 5 votes? OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

2020 Libertarian National Convention lists several satirical or far-shot candidates who received only one vote, including Godzilla, Edward Snowden, John McAfee, Chris Spangle, and Vermin Supreme. The latter 3 were even vice presidential nominations. Cerrathegreat (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Checking back, all past Libertarian conventions, while not having received many votes for satirical candidates, still do list every write-in candidate even if they only got one vote. This seems to just be the standard for these small convention articles, since there tend to be so few votes anyway. Cerrathegreat (talk) 17:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, last note, but 2020 Green National Convention also lists all write-in delegate votes. Cerrathegreat (talk) 17:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of whether previous articles should list those or not, you're not going to be adding Chandler here. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

My intention was never to add Chandler, I definitely understand how many issues that would lead to. My position's been that we should remove lists of specific write-in candidates from past articles, since I think these convention articles should be treated consistently. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You triggered an edit filter trying to re-add Chandler hours earlier today after not editing since January. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I really do apologize for that, it was just from attempting to revert edits to the notes section since Vader13289 suggested to open a discussion on how we should handle write-in candidates. I was under the impression that said user was an administrator, but checking their profile again after you left their message, I realized they weren't. I never had intention of reverting those changes permanently, I just wanted to keep these pages consistent for visitors until a resolution could be reached. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm fairly new to editing on Wikipedia and I'll admit that I haven't been the most active. I'm just trying my best to contribute positively and make sure that visitors have a consistent experience between articles, and the best experience possible. If trying to revert that change went against what's usually expected of users, I apologize. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What if we add Chandler as "a webcomic artist"? Then we can have the vote totals without using the name. Koopinator (talk) 18:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I think adding Chandler is a bad idea. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the harm if we anonymize Chandler's votes as being for "a webcomic artist". Koopinator (talk) 18:25, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Referencing Chandler without naming her will only lead to more vandalism. The reason I'm arguing to remove write-in candidates from past Convention articles is because any other option now will lead to dozens of people trying to add Chandler to this article over the next few years. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Vandalism does not matter, WP:SUSCEPTIBLE Koopinator (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, the inclusion of Chandler, and any write-in candidates without significant news coverage, throughout these articles violates WP:WEIGHT and should have been dealt with a long time ago. Chandler isn't the only issue here, it's just the issue that's brought the wider problem to light. Cerrathegreat (talk) 18:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Results of the 2016 Democratic Party presidential primaries lists every named candidate in detail, including Vermin Supreme. MountainDew20 (talk) 22:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not edit the article without a consensus. We've already agreed that Chandler should not be named in the article. Cerrathegreat (talk) 02:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Option 1, All we would be doing by removing a single person from the list is just drawing more attention to that individual and the write in results have been reported in news outlets due to Trump's write ins so it'll make sense to include the write ins so that the information provided is comprehensive.

If it is impossible for this individual to be listed than Option 3 is the second best choice. 2002crash1 (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Option 3 as well, personally. Cerrathegreat (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The main problem I have that option is how exactly do we determine satire for a candidate, especially since these candidates wouldn't have Wikipedia pages. Most people aren't as "well known" as Chandler and are unlikely to be obvious to us as a joke pick.

There's also the fact that some choices while seeming satirical were actual candidates for the nomination or have ties to the party. In another part of this thread you mentioned Edward Snowden, John McAfee, Chris Spangle, and Vermin Supreme as satirical or far-shot candidates but I don't think any of these are really satirical. Vermin Supreme ran in 2020 and placed 3rd in the vote totals, John McAfee ran in 2016 and placed 2nd in the vote totals, Edward Snowden is seen as a heroic figure of sorts by the Libertarian party which has passed offical resolutions calling for a pardon and Chris Spangle seems to be a minor figure in the Libertarian party.

So I am not sure how the rule would be applied elsewhere as there aren't really many obvious examples of joke choices that stick out as a joke in the same way that some of the choices made this year did and it could cause issues depending on the metrics for "satirical write-in candidates" if not carefully defined. I support the option for this page to avoid a zeroing in on the problem candidate if they have to be removed but I am not sure how it could be done with other pages. 2002crash1 (talk) 05:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Support Option 1 despite the opinion of the administrators, neutral on 2, Strongly oppose 3, 4, and 5, we should not change the policy of Wikipedia just to avoid mentioning Chris Chan. MountainDew20 (talk) 04:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Alternative option, do Option 1 and put an extended-confirmed protection on the page to protect from vandals. MountainDew20 (talk) 05:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No. The point has already been settled on whether to include Chandler's name. Cerrathegreat (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie, Master106, Koopinator, MountainDew20, and 2002crash1: It seems like option 3 is the relative consensus, with 2 strong supports, 2 supports, and 1 strong oppose.

Jamie, would you approve an initiative to remove the names of satirical write-in candidates from other Convention and Primary pages where they appear, and to make this the standard for these pages going forward? If yes, the next step would be defining what a satirical candidate is and is not. Cerrathegreat (talk) 07:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't actually stated my opinion explicitly, but I support option 2. Option 3 is my second preference. Koopinator (talk) 08:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, noted! Cerrathegreat (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm for including this information (whether as a footnote or in the table itself).

If we know who the write-in votes were for, we should let it be accessibly known who they were for. SecretName101 (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

theme

It's a minor aspect of the convention, but on the other hand I've not seen the Libertarians use the anarchy is order symbol so prominently before. I'll look to see which RSs mention it. Arlo James Barnes 01:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)