Talk:2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

Map Update

The Israelis have captured Kafr Kila and Khiam per TOI. And to add to that they have almost certainly taken most of the towns south of Khiam (they didn't just spawn there). edit: entered not captured — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Update Israeli deaths/injuries according to the IDF

Five reservists were killed on Saturday according to the IDF, the death toll is now 42.

References

Actually is 41 according to IDF and Israeli Gov.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Iranian support

Since the U.S is listed as supporting Israel, it should make sense to list Iran as supporting Hezbollah Mauzer's random BS (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree 142.169.16.44 (talk) 19:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the US being listed as supporting Israel. While it's true that the US is an ally of Israel, Israel has a lot of allies. Should all of them be listed? There can be a new "foreign involvement" section that details US involvement in this war, but I'm not sure what could be talked about there. Let's focus on belligerents in the infobox only. JasonMacker (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of “supported by” from the infobox. It is not informative. I think that we could write “supplied by” — as is in the infobox of the article Russo–Ukrainian war.

I will probably add “Supplied by: United States” for Israel, and wikilink in the case of Hezbollah — “Supplied by: See Hezbollah armed strength § Supply”. The supplies to Hezbollah are much less homogenous and transparent than those to Israel, which principally come from the US and Germany in this current phase. Y. Dongchen (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the key difference is that with Ukraine, military assistance is being sent specifically in response to the Russian attack. On the other hand, Israel has been receiving weapons from foreign countries from literally its inception. So the question becomes, does the consistent long-term military assistance to Israel that has continued through the invasion of Lebanon be considered assistance for this invasion of Lebanon specifically and be noted here? I'm okay with doing that. As I said, I'm not opposed to a "foreign involvement" section similar to the one for Russian invasion of Ukraine. We could note that several countries (US, Germany) have continued their military aid to Israel even after the Israel invasion of Lebanon. If I have time, I'll add that section this week myself and put a hatnote next to Israel in the infobox that links to that section of the article. For sources, I found this where Germany announced military aid to Israel even after Israel invaded Lebanon. It should be easy to find other sources too. JasonMacker (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This conflict plays a major role in the Iran-Israel Proxy Conflict.

It would make for more sense if Iran-Israel proxy conflict was also included as one of the conflicts that this invasion is a apart of. Hezbollah is a major proxy of Iran and has been since the 1980s, and it is clear that most of the resources of Hezbollah is allocated by the IRGC(specifically Quds Force). Kianmehr443 (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Civilian casualties

Should the infobox be updated to include civilian casualties on both sides? 104.218.158.89 (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support this, although there have been 0 Israeli civilian casualties, something pretty typical for invasions. Mason7512 (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezb has been killing a few with their rocket attacks 185.127.127.22 (talk) 06:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe those would fit more into the causalities of the wider Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present), as they were not killed in/ as a result of the invasion. Mason7512 (talk) 10:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

If we do: Latest says the official entire total is "2,865 [Lebanese] since October 2023"[1] Mason7512 (talk) 19:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The number of pictures shows 61 israeli soldiers killed on october 2024

https://t.me/HezbollahOperation/1357 2A02:AA1:1646:1CEC:8EB2:AAB5:33E4:2805 (talk) 12:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Update Lebanese army casualties inside the template

The total number of Lebanese army casualties is 11 not 7 so please update the number here is a source that say it's 11 (Lbc) 70.26.36.11 (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah & Israeli casualties

Just 7 days ago Hezbollah claimed they suffered 900+ dead, this should be included, although I suggest it'd be written as "1,000+" since it is likely higher. Some sources also claim 62 IDF soldiers were killed since the invasion and Hezbollah claims 90+ IDF soldiers were killed. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-forces-lebanon-and-gaza-suffer-deadliest-month-2024 Mauzer's random BS (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

Given that "Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" contains only a sentence, it can easily be added to the "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" article. I would do this myself, but I'm uncertain where exactly the claim would be placed. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 01:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Support: This should be put into the War crimes sections of Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present). Use quotes from those allegations for more detail. Prodrummer619 (talk) 04:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wait: Given that there is a significant amount of sources, the article could be expanded further, enough to warrant a stand alone status. ByteBaldur (talk) 08:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wait per ByteBaldur's reasoning Mason7512 (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose That article currently has 8 different sources listed. Give it time to grow, as it was only created just a few days ago. JasonMacker (talk) 03:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Support as from the online material I have read, there are no substantial arguments or evidence or sources supporting this allegation - yet. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, but that's a reason for why the title would be Allegations of genocide in Lebanon' instead of 'Genocide in Lebanon', and not for notability. ByteBaldur (talk) 09:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's when the allegation passes the threshold of being considered as fact; but what I was saying is that the earlier threshold for it to be even considered an appropriate allegation hasn't been met yet. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Support Can always recreate if situation warrants.Selfstudier (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Support. especially given the page has no prose substance and references are vague at best. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Support With the irrelevant references now removed, the page has very little standing in terms of sourcing, and the one sentence of content should definitely be merged. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Map Key and Colors

tl;dr The colors of the map are confusing. Especially Israeli-occupied Lebanon. You can hardly tell the difference in colors between it and Israel.

And the colors on the key do not match the colors on the map.

Wall of text:

I'm VERY good at recognizing patterns. It's one of my gifts. And if I'm having issues, most other people will as well.

A map should illustrate something like an event in a quick snapshot. Most people won't take the time, as I did, to try and figure out faint differences in color or recognize the blue Israel key equals the soft purple on the map, the red Syria key equals the pink on the map, the bright blue teal key/soft green teal on map, much less the magenta key on the key that is just a slightly different shade of soft purple than Israel.

I like the map itself and how it's separated out. And I did learn something from it. I'm feeling very foolish as I thought Gaza was on the west side of Israel for some reason! (I think perhaps because I knew it was near a big water source and forgot about the Sea of Galilee!)

I'm not a graphic artist so don't know how to fix it. I know the key colors are too dark. I'd say, make the key colors match the map colors and change the Israeli-occupied Lebanon area to something more contrasting. Orange or green, maybe? Morphidae (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Iraq militias

Iraqi militias, specifically the Islamic Resistance of Iraq militia, should be included as they're directly involved with their drone attacks on Israel and the Golan, which have been significant and destructive in cases Mauzer's random BS (talk) 02:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

If you can cite it and write it properly, you can add it (or make an edit request with your proposed material). Sirocco745 (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iraqi-resistance-executes-operation-against-israeli-targets Mauzer's random BS (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

The infobox is currently bloated; I think there is no need to place UNIFIL and Lebanese army in separate columns; they should be placed below Hezbollah, but with clear dealination to avoid implying they are fighting together, but rather all being hit by the invading Israeli army. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to this or some other alternative to the current crowded situation. Mason7512 (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree. Can we move the LAF to the footnote because they are not even a belligerent in the conflict? ByteBaldur (talk) 20:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The inclusion of the LAF is currently justified by this, I believe. Just putting the reasoning out there, not saying it is logical or illogical. Mason7512 (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done what you've suggested. Please let me know what you think. Personally, I do think that this is a better format, since all three of the belligerents listed in that column (Hezbollah, LAF, UNIFIL) are being attacked by Israel and haven't fought each other. JasonMacker (talk) 01:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, the casualty counts for Lebanon and Hezbollah overlap. The Lebanese Ministry of Health includes all Lebanese casualties (including Hezbollah). Likewise, RS include Hezbollah medics[2] among total medics killed.

Secondly, UNIFIL's mandate is to be neutral. I don't think we should put them under Lebanon/Hezbollah, rather they should indeed be in a third column.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't alter any of the content of the infobox. I only moved around what was already in it. Lebanon and Hezbollah's casualties were already overlapping before I slimmed it down from 4 columns to 2. So that has nothing to do with me changing the number of columns.

The fact that Hezbollah, Lebanon, and UNIFIL are in the same column does not imply that they are on the same "team". They have those horizontal divisions that separate them. What they have in common is that all three have been attacked by Israel. For comparison, see the infobox of War_against_the_Islamic_State that puts the United States, Iran, Russia, Egypt, Israel, and Nigeria all in the same column, but uses the same horizontal divisions to show the "teams." JasonMacker (talk) 06:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Map needs change

The IDF withdrew from Khiam according to al-mayadeen a reliable source whose been monitoring the ground invasion since the start https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/hezbollah-forces-israeli-troops--withdrawal-from-khiam--sout 185.142.40.148 (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)