Talk:6.5×55mm Swedish/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Article renaming

As per the general consensus from the team at Wikiproject: Military History, it would seem that this article really ought to be named "6.5x55", with no spaces. I thought I'd give people a chance to comment before arbitrarily changing the title, however. --Commander Zulu 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"and pre-dates other intermediate cartridges by fifty years?"

Really? How is "intermediate power cartridge" being defined? One would think that the the US 6mm Navy Lee (1895) or the .30-40 Krag (1892) would qualify- not to mention the ubiquitous .30-30 Winchester (also 1895)- not to mention the 6.5 Swedish' near-twin, the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schönauer.Solicitr (talk) 14:51, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Absent objection, have edited. Solicitr (talk) 21:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

6.5x55mm Photograph

I took a photograph of some 6.5x55mm Norma Surplus, can somebody place the photo in the 6.5x55 Wiki article?

Thanks!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:6.5x55mm_Swedish_surplus_ammunition,_produced_in_1976.JPG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Use in older military rifles

On this page there is the following statement:

European rifle makers including Sauer, Blaser CZ, Steyr and Mauser offer sporting rifles chambered for this cartridge, as does the Finnish arms manufacturer SAKO/Tikka, while ammunition manufacturers such as Norma, Lapua and Hornady offer loadings of the 6.5x55mm round that are designed for use only in modern hunting rifles that can tolerate higher chamber pressures. These modern loadings should never be used in older military rifles

I dont think the part about using modern ammunition in older military rifles is true. I own a 1916 Swedish Mauser. I contacted Norma about this and was informed that all of their 6.5x55 hunting ammunition can safely be used in such a rifle, including their "Jaktmatch" target ammunition. However their Diamond Line (DL) target ammunition should not be used. SwedishMauser (talk) 11:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


This is correct. All of the surplus 6.5x55mm rifles of Swedish manufacture were designed and built with robust, higher-pressure ammunition in mind. The problem (and the resulting boilerplate cautionary warning) with higher-pressure ammunition in surplus rifles is because of the first iterations of the Norwegian Krag-Jørgensen rifles that have only a single forward locking lug on the bolt (this was rectified in subsequent Krags). It is EXTREMELY dangerous to use European-manufactured 6.5x55 Swedish in these rifles, as the pressure can blow the bolt off the receiver, in turn causing the bolt, shrapnel, and/or hot gases to be propelled into the shooter's face. As a result of this, American ammunition manufacturers--fearing the liability issues involved--produce their versions of the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge with a significantly weaker charge than the Swedish rifles can easily handle.[1][2]

CAUTION: Do not fire ANY surplus rifle without having it thoroughly inspected by a competent gunsmith. While Swedish arsenals maintained their rifles remarkably well, there is no way of knowing what has happened to a firearm in fifty-plus years of storage and/or circulation. Firearms can be damaged in any number of ways, and some individuals have been known to assemble rifles from surplus parts (this is especially dangerous if parts are damaged, all parts are not fitted properly and the rifle is not properly head-spaced). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.116.40 (talk) 20:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag-J%C3%B8rgensen
  2. ^ The Swedish Mauser Rifles, Kehaya and Porter

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An examination of the name of this cartridge

In 1990 the official name of this cartridge was changed to: 6.5x55mm SCAN

The overwhelming use of name is 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser. [1] [2]Below is a survey of only 2 goggle search pages. Ammunition makers are represented 6 times, all using 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser.

Other names in use are

Name Occurences
6.5×55 Swedish Mauser 60
6.5x55 Swede 3
6.5x55 Mauser 1
6.5x55mm Swedish 4
Example Example

Using 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser:

  • Cartridges of the World V14
  • Ammunition to Go
  • Graf & Sons
  • Cabelas
  • Midway
  • Shooting Times
  • Sportsman Guide
  • Classic Firearms
  • Nosler Upfront
  • RealGuns
  • Ballisticstudies
  • Hickock 45 (video)
  • Shooters Forum (forum)
  • Chuckhawks
  • Ebay (32 mentions)
  • Gunsandammo (forum)
  • Collectorsfirearms
  • Traditions Performance Firearms
  • Norma USA
  • Thefirearmblog
  • Sniperforums
  • Gunnersden
  • Scout.com (multiple mentions counted a 1)
  • Thefiringline(forum counted as 1)
  • Nodaksoutdoor.com (forum counted as 1)
  • Europtic.com (9 mentions abbre 8 as Swede)
  • Gunboards.com
  • dutchmanrebooty.com
  • Ammunition.com (4 mentions)

6.5x55 Mauser

  • Gunsinternational

6.5x55 Swede

  • Cheaper than Dirt
  • Field and Stream
  • Smith&Wesson (Forum multiple mentions counted as 1)

6.5x55 Swedish

  • Gunsamerica
  • Snipercentral
  • Hornady
  • Shooter's Bible 106th

The overwhelming use of the name for this cartridge is 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser. In these 70 examples (plus numerous mentions) NOT 1 was 6.5x55mm I suggest this page be renamed to reflect the ovewhelming popular use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 15:42, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "6.5X55 SWEDISH MAUSER Ammo". ammunitiontogo.com. Retrieved 8 March 2017.
  2. ^ "6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser". gunnersden.com. Retrieved 8 March 2017.

The title of this page is errorneous.

The overwhelming number of users of the actual 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser call it that. I suggest this page be titled consistent the most commonly used name which I just mentioned. However there MUST be a mention of the REAL name as well which is 6.5x55mm SCAN. And there should be a mention that it is NOT the same as 6.5x55mm SKAN which is dimensionally different.Digitallymade (talk) 20:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The 6.5 × 55 SCAN/SKAN (it depends on the Scandinavien language you are using) is a nomenclature used by Scandinavian shooting associations that indicates commercial ammunition is loaded to 380 MPa. Full modern pressure SCAN/SKAN ammunition is sold in those countries for use in the Sauer 200 STR (Scandinavin Target Rifle) they use as their 'modern' competition rifle. Historic service arms are also used and the shooting associations and ammunition manufacturers advise against the use of 380 MPa pressure in those less sturdy and other old rifles. Members of Det frivillige Skyttervesen can order SKAN ammunition from the DFS: https://www.dfsnettbutikk.no/categories/kal-65-patroner You will have noticed by now the SCAN/SKAN nomenclature usage is quite messy. Swedish nomenclature connections are still somewhat sensitive in Norway.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:51, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

The proper name

Referencing [1] Cartridges of the World the correct name of this cartridge is 6.5 x 55mm Swedish Mauser (they leave out the spaces, I don't).

From earlier research I found a reference (somewhere) that Paul Mauser designed EVERY cartridge (although in consulatation with the buyers of course) that was EVER chambered in a Mauser rifle.

Digitallymade (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The 6.5×55mm Swedish Mauser nomenclature variant is already mentioned in the article. Paul Mauser did design some cartridges that were chambered in Mauser products. The 6.5×55mm was designed by the Gevärskommittén (Rifle Committee) of the United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway (1814-1905) and chambered in non Mauser arms also. This is also mentioned in the article. In Germany cartridge nomenclature is simple as is it is ruled by the C.I.P. and all decisions made by C.I.P. are enforced by law after publication. Wikipedia does not follow the C.I.P. rulings nor SAAMI guidelines nor Cartridges of the World regarding cartridge nomenclature.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:05, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
From Paul Mauser's history, every cartridge that was designed for a Mauser rifle was his design, but there is one exception which is a large caliber and that is NOT referred to as a Mauser cartridge. It is virtually inconceivable that a cartridge could be designed in the era prior to standard's organizations recording recommended pressures etc. (such as Saami and CIP) without the firearm makers input. Digitallymade (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Where can we find "Paul Mauser's history" quotes online? Pre 1914 and C.I.P. many cartridges that still are produced where designed. They were later included by the standards' organizations and C.I.P. rulings sometimes change or were changed for a chambering. At https://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunting/65x55-Swedish-Mauser/ you can read "Contrary to common belief the 6,5x55 was not developed by Mauser, but was constructed by a joint Norwegian and Swedish military commission and introduced as the standard military cartridge in both countries in 1894." Norma is an ammunition manufacture from Sweden. Also have a look at https://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunting/8x57-JS/ -Francis Flinch (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The official name is 6.5x55mm SCAN, but no one uses that.Digitallymade (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2017 (UTC) From the Sierra Loading manual, "it is a Mauser design." Digitallymade (talk) 16:59, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Unless Mauser was a member of the Swedish-Norwegian Rifle Commission of 1891 and 1893, no... it's not a Mauser design. The cartridge was developed first, the rifles (the Krag-Jørgensen and the Swedish Mauser) made to fit it later. If photos of Norwegian and Swedish military ammunition is anything to go by, the proper name should be "6,5 m/m" (Norway) or "6,5 mm" (Sweden), refering to [1], [2], [3] and [4]. WegianWarrior (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Pressure

Original load 156 gr round nose bullet 2378 fps in M96, 2149 in M38 With the M41 the bullet became 139gr, 2601 fps and replaced all previous bullets. Some rifles are marked with a disc on the buttplate stating which ammunition they were sighted in for. [2]

6.5 x55mm Swedish Mauser Pressure Type
156 gr 47000 Normal load
Proof 1 58760 Proof
Proof 2 6600 Proof

US companies are known to have loaded this ammunition to a very low pressure. European ammunition produced excellent results.

Proof Marks: Horoizontal Crown - made by Mauser or Carl Gustav Tilted Crown - Husqvarna

[3] Digitallymade (talk) 16:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Digitallymade: You're confusing "proof marks" with "acceptance marks", a mistake that seems to be very common in the US. After inspection of the individual parts of a rifle all parts of the rifles (including stock, stock rings, trigger guard, magazine base plate etc etc) received an acceptance mark in the form of a crown, which was horizontal for Carl Gustav (a royal armoury) and tilted for Husqvarna (a private company). But there were several other crowns stamped on the rifles, first an inspection mark on the barrel to show that the assembled barrel, action and sights had passed inspection, then a proof mark on the lower left hand side of the receiver (low enough to be covered by the stock, and thus normally not seen) to show that the barrel/action/sight assembly had been proof fired, using a cartridge with extra heavy load, and then finally another inspection mark on the underside of the stock, just behind the trigger guard, to show that the fully assembled rifle had been inspected, test fired and sighted in. And in addition to that the last part of the serial number was stamped on all parts and the initials of the officer who inspected the rifles on behalf of "the Crown" were stamped on the receiver.
But all true proof marks (and there's only one of those on each rifle, the one on the lower left hand side of the receiver) that I have seen are horizontal, regardless of who made the rifle, and the same goes for all inspection marks I have seen, and I've never seen a source with knowledge enough about rifles, and particularly Swedish Mausers, to know the difference between an acceptance mark, an inspection mark and a proof mark claim that proof mark crowns are tilted on rifles made by Husqvarna. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:47, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I believe you are correct. I don't speak German or Swedish so I expect you know better than I do. Digitallymade (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
At http://www.cip-bobp.org/poincons you can see some proof marks used by C.I.P. certified proof houses and historical ones.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Barnes, Fred C. (2014). Cartridges of the World (14th ed.). Iola, MN, United States: Krause Publications. ISBN 978-1-4402-4265-6. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  2. ^ "The 1896 Swedish Mauser". chuckhawks.com. Retrieved 8 March 2017.
  3. ^ "6.5x55". ballisticstudies.com. Retrieved 8 March 2017.

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Requested move 6 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to 6.5×55mm Swedish, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 22:07, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


6.5×55mm → 6.5×55mm Swedish Mauser – I suggest the name be changed in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] and to achieve consistency with other Mauser cartidges such as 7×57mm Mauser and 7.92×57mm Mauser along with other European metric cartridges such as 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer, 7.5×55mm Swiss and 9.3×64mm Brenneke. Consensus has just been achieved for the move of 10.75×68mm to 10.75×68mm Mauser, see Talk:10.75×68mm Mauser. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 05:57, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Frank C. Barnes, Cartridges of the World, 15th ed, Gun Digest Books, Iola, 2016, ISBN 978-1-4402-4642-5.
  2. ^ Steve Gash, "A Metric Marvel: 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser", shootingtimes.com, retrieved 6 Apr 18.
  3. ^ GunData.Org, "6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser Ballistics", gundata.org, retrieved 6 Apr 18.
  4. ^ Midway USA, "Search results for 6.5x55mm", midwayusa.com, retrieved 6 Apr 18.
  5. ^ Brian Pearce, "6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser", loaddata.com, retrieved 6 Apr 18.
  6. ^ Philip Peterson, Standard Catalog of Military Firearms: The Collectors Price & Reference, 8th ed, Gun Digest Books, Iola, 2016, ISBN 978-1-4402-4676-0.
  7. ^ Target Sports USA, "6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser Ammo", targetsportsusa.com, retrieved 6 Apr 18.
  • Support this move (or any sort of move) per reasons listed above for clarity and consistency with other pages.Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:19, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose since the 6.5x55mm isn't a Mauser-cartridge, but was developed by the "Swedish-Norwegian Rifle Commission" ("Svensk-norska Gevärskommittén", 1891-93) in the early 1890s. The only connection to Mauser is that it was used in Mauser-designed rifles and carbines by the Swedish Armed Forces (while the Norwegians used it in Krag-rifles). The misnomer 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser comes from the surplus Swedish m/1896 Mauser rifles that were sold in large numbers in the U.S., which were all chambered for it, but the cartridge as such has absolutely nothing to do with Mauser. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:02, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Thomas.W, thank you for your reply. How do you account for the overwhelming use Swedish Mauser throughout the English speaking world, as demonstrated here and above by Digitallymade, and the discrepancy with WP:COMMONNAME? If you have corroborating WP:RS, perhaps what you have said here should be included in the article as the current claim in the article's lead that 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser is a less common name is downright incorrect. Kind regards, Cavalryman V31 (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2018 (UTC).
@Cavalryman V31: The official SAAMI designation is 6.5x55 Swedish and the official CIP designation 6.5x55 SE (with SE being their country code for Sweden), so we should either keep the current name of the article, or move it to either of 6.5x55 Swedish or 6.5x55mm Swedish, without "Mauser", and create 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser as a new redirect (in addition to the already existing redirect 6.5 x 55 Mauser), but we should not move it to the proposed name, since it has no official standing, and is only one of several different names that are commonly used for it. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 07:03, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Thomas.W, thank you. As per WP:COMMONNAME, names used by regulatory bodies do not dictate what we use here, additionally neither body you cite use the current article title. Of the two alternatives you have posed, only 6.5x55mm Swedish is consistent with other metric cartridge article titles, I would be happy with that title, it is a vast improvement over the current title. Kind regards, Cavalryman V31 (talk) 10:54, 7 April 2018 (UTC).
@Cavalryman V31: I'm fine with moving the article to 6.5x55mm Swedish, without Mauser. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 10:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Mauser had nothing to do with the development of this cartridge. Mauser only made rifles around it. I prefer to keep the name 6.5×55mm as it leads to no confusion, but I'm also fine with moving the article to 6.5×55mm Swedish, without Mauser. With inserting redirects every possible thinkable nomenclature can lead to the article.--Francis Flinch (talk) 17:36, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Chambering problem rumor

In searching today I could not find any reference to a chambering problem. So I am removing this section which was already in doubt.Digitallymade (talk) 18:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Restored with citations. WegianWarrior (talk) 21:37, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The chambering problem rumor may be the reason for unofficial "nicknames" such as 6.5×55mm Mauser or 6.5×55mm Krag. Sauer202 (talk) 22:43, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Rifling twist rate

The rifling twist rate is not a specification and should not be listed in the specification section. It may reasonably be address elsewhere in the article.SteveOak (talk) 17:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The rifling twist may indeed be a specification mentioned in the cartridge standard. I do however agree that in that case it should be listed further down in the article. Sauer202 (talk) 22:44, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
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