Talk:Academic dress of the University of Cambridge

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Comparisons with degrees of other universities[edit]

Unlike in most other universities, except the University of Oxford, all undergraduates at Cambridge traditionally graduated with a B.A. degree after 3 years, although, these days, many graduates also obtain a master's degree, such as an M.Eng or M.Sci., after a further year of study, and graduate from both degrees at once.

I don't understand this. It seems to be saying that at most universities people do not get a BA after three years, which is clearly not true. Is it supposed to mean that (nearly?) everyone, even science subjects, gets a BA as opposed to some other degree? Instead, it seems to be referring to the length of the degree course and whether it's a bachelor's or a master's. In any case the relevanc to the issue of academic dress is not that clear. Flapdragon 12:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly. In most other universities most people (apart from arts students) get other degrees such as Bachelor of Science instead of Bachelor of Arts. All undergraduate students in Cambridge get a BA when they graduate. This is relevant to academic dress, because it determines the gowns to be worn. — Richie 20:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Academical (?) dress[edit]

Is there any chance of getting this page changed to "Academical dress of the University of Cambridge"? This is the term used in Shaw's book, and is usual in Britain. It is also the style adopted in all official documentation, such as the university's Stautes & Ordinances. A.C. Norman (talk) 15:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's a good idea from the point of view of people searching for information (and incidentally I don't think the term is all that widely used in modern usage outside Cambridge). But I've added a redirect for Academical dress of the University of Cambridge. Mhardcastle (talk) 07:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think the redirect will be sufficient. A.C. Norman (talk) 08:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe rename the page as "Academical dress.." (since that is the Cambridge term), and add a redirect from "Academic dress.." to that page, to help people searching for the information. A.C. Norman (talk) 09:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. Still don't think that's a very good idea, because of the need for consistency across Wikipedia. Every other a.d. article is 'Academic dress of ...' and that's not going to change.
What I do think someone should do is refer to the terminological difference between Cambridge and most other places in the article itself. (Currently there is only one use of 'academical' in the body of the article, in the discussion of the cappa clausa.) But elsewhere in the article, including the title, we should be using the terminology that Wikipedia already uses. Mhardcastle (talk) 07:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the instance of academical to academic, and have added a note about the choice made on this page at the top, as you suggested. This is certainly a good idea in the interests of uniformity. I haven't looked into what other universities call their gowns &c., but Statutes & Ordinances, the Burgon Society and GB Shaw's book Academical Dress of British & Irish Universities use academical. Are you sure academic dress isn't an Americanism (or is academical dress just Cambridge being archaic)? A.C. Norman (talk) 15:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's the latter. 'academical' is essentially an archaic form of the adjective 'academic' and in the past was used in all sorts of places where we would now use 'academic': see the OED. People used to talk about 'academicals' meaning 'academic dress' and perhaps it's for that reason that it's survived in this context, but really the best you can say about it as a word is that it's a permissible variation, and it probably sounds odd to anyone who has neither been to Cambridge nor been exposed to much pre-20th-century writing. No other British university that I know of uses it, including Oxford. Wasn't Shaw a Cambridge graduate? If so, it's not clear that he constitutes an independent authority... Mhardcastle (talk) 18:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shaw studied at UMIST part-time, started at Swansea but then transferred to Bangor and later did postgraduate work at Wadham College, Oxford (and also had a higher doctorate from the University of Hong Kong conferred in 1970). Between 1950 and 1953 he was, however, teaching at Deacon's School in Peterborough and researching on the side, with support from nearby Cambridge academics, and in 1980 (14 years after his first edition) he was awarded a Schoolmaster's Fellowship to Girton College, Cambridge. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That information would be a useful addition to George_Shaw_(academic_dress_scholar)! Mhardcastle (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

Merge I agree that this would be a sensible move, with the only reservation being: do Oxford / other universities have scarlet days for the wearing of festal gowns? A.C. Norman (talk) 10:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. OED does list at least one example of the phrase being used in relation to Oxford in the 18th Century. I don't know whether it is current practice or not though. Mrh30 (talk) 11:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Oxford regulations are considerably more complex than the Cambridge ones -- there are rules for the wearing of festal gowns, and days when doctors are supposed to wear scarlet, but the rules are not as simple as 'scarlet or not'. It's clear, though, that the term has been used relating to Oxford in the past, so I don't think a merge is a good idea. Incidentally, see red letter day... Mhardcastle (talk) 18:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another interesting link is at CUHAGS:Days about red letter days. A.C. Norman (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two new degrees to be added[edit]

The list of hoods needs to be updated to include (at least) two recent (2010) additions: Master of Mathematics and Master of Advanced Study. 86.13.158.235 (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Flowchart needs fixing[edit]

The flowchart needs to be corrected to show the degrees that rank above Ph.D., such has Doctor of Divinity and Doctor of Laws.Mikedelsol (talk) 07:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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