Talk:Adele Spitzeder

girlfriend

Interesting article.

• "She returned to Munich with her girlfriend to await job offers, …" citing deutsche-biographie Which line is that, and does it suggest what 'girlfriend' may often imply (more than friends)? cygnis insignis 18:25, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh, is it Rosa Ehinger, mentioned in historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de? Just a ref correct and substitute 'girlfriend' with 'friend' [Freundin]?

• "he continued to pay interest in cash,"

begins a paragraph, something clipped off? cygnis insignis 19:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: Thanks for the comments. As for the second one, there is a "S" missing indeed, I added it. As for the girlfriend part, Spitzeder was indeed a lesbian as was revealed in her trial (see article at queer.de which cites Nebel's book. I added that source to the sentence as well. Regards SoWhy 19:51, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Cool that you can source that. And an 'S', silly of me to miss that. Perhaps start the para with her surname instead? I can't think where read about this particular scheme before, I will bring that source if I do. cygnis insignis 03:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll have another look. Iirc, that sentence was originally part of the last paragraph. As for her personal life, it probably makes sense to add a section about it as well. Will do so shortly. Regards SoWhy 09:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

SoWhy, my rule of thumb is to split biography from works, which was the stage and Ponzi scheme, iirc. The article contains many surprising facts, looks like it was fun to create. cygnis insignis 10:05, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: Yeah. Sometimes I'm surprised how much is still missing after more that 5 million articles. Also, if you want to restructure the article, by all means be my guest. I'm happy for any help with MOS stuff Regards SoWhy 10:29, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Not my forte, sections, I tend to write without them or lump into the broadest catch-all. A good many of those 5 million articles are about things no-one will care about in five years, if they do now, there is a lot of important and interesting content, on topics that are perennially interesting, that is yet to be created. Cheers again for providing some, I have a look for little matters of style. cygnis insignis 10:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• Das Gericht warf ihr vor, keine Handelsbücher geschrieben, ferner widerrechtlich Vermögen beiseite geschafft und zudem übermäßig Geld verschwendet zu haben. [1]
• " lack of accounts, stashing customer's money and wasting money." [the article]

Is there a better terms for the crimes she was convicted of, I don't read German cygnis insignis 11:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

While I both read German and am fluent in German legalese, I don't really know the English / Common Law terms for these crimes, to wit not writing any books on her accounts, removing assets unlawfully and wasting too much [of her customers'] money. Regards SoWhy 12:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Spitzeder might have moved the sack of money from under the bed to the wardrobe, without advising the account holder of the transfer of funds, something like 'financial mismanagement' rather than fraud. There are plenty of lawyers around here, someone will know this. You may wish to go the extra distance and get this promoted, its a good read. cygnis insignis 13:53, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, basically. I put in a GOCE request on the article, maybe one of those gals/guys has a better idea how to phrase it. I definitely would like to GA nominate it. Regards SoWhy 14:35, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It would be a good idea to add the German pronunciation to the article, as the surename in particular may look a bit exotic to an English language reader. I think it would be [ˈʃpɪt͡seːdɐ], but I need someone to confirm it. --Z 13:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I have limited knowledge of IPA but as a Bavarian name it probably was pronounced Spitz-e-der and not Spit-ze-der oder Spitze-der, as it is a contraction of "Spitz(e)" (German for "top", "peak", "tip" etc.) and the common German surname Eder. So according to an online transcriber it probably should be [ʃpɪt͡s:e:dɐ]. But I'll let someone with more experience handle this of course. Regards SoWhy 13:49, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh, it looks to be more complicated than I thought first. An audio file is also appropriate, and I can transcribe the voice in IPA if aomeone provide that. --Z 17:19, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Adele Spitzeder's tombstone?

The photo purporting to be Adele Spitzeder's tombstone shows a stone that does not have her name, and none of the dates match the birth date or death date in the article. The article also states she was buried anonymously, but does not state when the tombstone was added, leading me to suspect there is no tombstone at her grave. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Yeah - I can believe it if there's no tombstone but the existence of a tombstone with a different name makes it unlikely. Juxlos (talk) 08:18, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I think one of the points of anonymous burial is that the information of the person buried is not on the tomb stone, is it not? Burying someone "anonymously" but putting the correct dates on the tomb stone kind of defeats the purpose of anonymous burial. If you check the Nebel book, you can find the same tombstone on page 154. Regards SoWhy 08:54, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

This would be the case of a "misleading" burial if anything - unless the names on the tombstone are generic names. But yeah, it's in the book. Juxlos (talk) 09:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Here's the explanation, courtesy of Bayerischer Rundfunk. Her family changed her name to "Schmid" after her death and that's the family grave. Regards SoWhy 09:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Still does not make sense to me. It says that her name was changed to Adele Schmidt, but that name is not on the tombstone either. The document says nothing about her family having their names changed, so I would expect to read the name "Spitzeder" on the tombstone. Yupanqui (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Adele Spitzeder/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Spintendo (talk · contribs) 14:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

It will be my pleasure to begin this review. If I may say so, this topic was found to have a dearth of English language sources available (beyond the good ones provided so far), so the fact that this article exists and with the good level of information appended to it, owes a debt of gratitude to the efforts of the nominator and editors at the German Wikipedia who edited the article there. The nominator, who is fluent in German and English, was able to incorporate these important German language sources into English so well, that the article in no way appears as if it has been translated into English from another language, as many articles with poorer translation-related efforts show.

Let's take this section by section, with the end results being tabulated in the table I've placed below.  Spintendo  14:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review this. I'll address stuff asap but it might take a day or two because I have to catch up on work after my vacation. Regards SoWhy 15:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

There's no hurry. Please take as much time as you need to reply.  Spintendo  16:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Spintendo: I think I addressed everything and left some comments below. Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Lead section

• "She ran the bank out of her house and never married. She maintained the persona of a pious Christian woman who helped the poor, although she was documented as carrying on more than one lesbian relationship." This phrasing, with the word "although", has the effect of implying in Wikipedia's voice that the subject's lesbianism runs counter to a Christian lifestyle. Philosophical arguments aside, I think it would be better to place the information in the first sentence, which mentions her never marrying. On its own, that sentence does not mesh well "She ran the bank out of her house and never married", as not marrying does not seem to be related to running a bank out of her house. My suggestion would be "In her personal life she never married, but was documented to have been in more than one lesbian relationship. Outwardly, she projected the persona of a pious Christian woman who helped the poor, running her bank out of her own house."
  •  Major rephrasing. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Her competitors were real banks, and authorities eventually brought her to trial" suggested to become "Her competitors were more established banks, and authorities eventually brought her to trial with their help", as I believe that these established banks were instrumental in bringing her to trial as the article states.
  •  Rephrased. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Early life

• "Bavaria's King Ludwig I was a fan of the Spitzeders and agreed to pay them 6.000 Gulden yearly" - can we expand on this point? As worded, it leaves open the reasoning for why the king supported the Spitzeders. The source states "Der sonst so sparsame bayerische König Ludwig I. hatte offensichtlich einen Narren an der Familie Spitzeder gefressen, denn erst stimmte er dem jährlichen Spitzengehalt des Sängerpaares von 6.000 Gulden zu, und nach dem plötzlichen Tod des Vaters half er der jungen Witwe, indem er die Ausbildung der Kinder finanzierte." In this case I will need the assistance of SoWhy for the translation, the Google software translation does not do it justice, particularly the word "gefressen" which translates as 'eaten' but I suspect has a different meaning (the Google translation comically suggests that the King ate the Spitzeders).
  • @Spintendo: The expression is "einen Narren gefressen", which can roughly be translated as "to be crazy about someone" (see LEO). I don't think "Ludwig I was crazy about them" sounds right though... Regards SoWhy 15:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

That makes more sense. If this describes the King being a fan of their music, maybe that works better? Or was this a case of infatuation?  Spintendo  16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Not really a fan of the music but themselves. I think infatuation is a good word here. How does it look now? SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

• "and then a convent school" - convent schools are not common in the English language - these are usually referred to simply as convents unless this was a school run by the convent, in which case the phrasing is perfectly fine.
  • As I understand it, a convent is a place where nuns live and work. In this case, the German phrase "klösterliches Internat" can probably best be translated as "boarding school run by a convent". I'll change it accordingly. Regards SoWhy 15:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

If it was a convent-run school, then it's fine as is.  Spintendo  16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

• " The money, however, was not sufficient to pay for her lifestyle; she lived in hotels and inns with her girlfriend and six dogs." should be "The money, however, was not sufficient to pay for a lifestyle of living in hotels and inns with her girlfriend and six dogs."

• •  Done SoWhy 15:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Spitzedersche Privatbank

• "Spitzeder also inserted an advertisement into the city's major newspaper, the Münchner Neueste Nachrichten, requesting to borrow 150 Gulden with the promise of 10 percent interest after two months" was this request made of the public? It seems unusual to post requests for money in a newspaper. Was it that she was soliciting investments? that would make more sense.
  • You can check the Harper's Weekly source which has the full wording (translated). It literally says "A respectable lady desires to borrow ...". Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Growth of business

• "Spitzeder's banking services quickly became the talk of the town in Munich's poor communities" should be "in Munich's poorer communities" unless there was only one fixed geographical poor community.
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "She continued to pay interest in cash, which was not common, and thus led to some word-of-mouth advertising" should be "She continued to pay interest in cash, which was not common, leading to favorable word-of-mouth advertising".
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Because her customer base consisting mostly of workers from the northern outskirts of Munich, her bank was also called "Dachauer Bank". should be "Because her customer base consisted mostly of workers from the northern outskirts of Munich, her bank was also called 'Dachauer Bank'". (This may have resulted from the use of the German auch, which in certain translations results in the placement of the word also, when in the English phrasing that word may not be necessary. With regards to the name of the bank, I'm curious what "Dachauer" translates to — is that a term for the suburbs of Munich?)
  •  rephrased. It's the name of the town were most came from. Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Soon after, she began employing more than 40 people and rented additional rooms in the hotel in which she was staying." should be "Soon after, she began employing more than 40 people, requiring her to rent additional rooms in the hotel in which she was staying."
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "In early 1871, Spitzeder survived the first public attempts to discredit her because the government failed to find a legal reason to stop Spitzeder, who was fulfilling her obligations to her customers as promised." should be "In early 1871, Spitzeder survived the first public attempts to discredit her, as the government failed to find a legal reason to stop Spitzeder, who was fulfilling her obligations to her customers as promised."
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "While the city of Munich now taxed her as a "Bankier 2. Klasse" ("second class banker"), she successfully avoided calls to be entered into the companies' register, which would have led to closer scrutiny." should be "While the city of Munich began taxing her as a "Bankier 2. Klasse" ("second class banker"), she successfully avoided calls to be entered into the companies' register, which would have led to closer scrutiny."
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Her employees, all without training in accounting, regularly took money and the accounting was restricted to recording the names of depositors and the amounts they paid in, often only signed with "XXX" by her illiterate customers." should be "Her employees, all without training in accounting, regularly took money, with the accounting being restricted to recording the names of depositors and the amounts they paid in, often only signed with "XXX" by her non-literate customers." This final point, about literacy, should be delineated. If the customers had access to becoming literate but chose not to because their stations in life did not require literacy, they would be considered non-literate. If they grew up with a requirement for literacy but somehow fell through the cracks (so to speak) then they would be considered "illiterate". (But if this is the specific term that the source uses, we can leave it as is.)
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "In October 1871, the proprietor of the hotel in which she was living and working was no longer willing to tolerate the customer traffic." should be "By October 1871, the proprietor of the hotel in which she was living and working was no longer willing to tolerate the customer traffic.
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Spitzeder moved into a house on Schönfeld Street No. 9 in one of Munich's best areas." should be "Spitzeder moved into the house at No. 9 Schönfeld Street in one of Munich's most affluent areas.
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "In 1871, she received 50,000 to 60,000 Gulden each day, although she had lowered the return paid to 8% per month." should be "By 1871 she was receiving 50,000 to 60,000 Gulden each day, although she lowered her returns paid to 8% per month."
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Despite the size of her business, the bank had no premises of its own and all business was done in Spitzeder's hotel and later her house." should be "Despite the size of her business, the bank had no premises of its own and all business was done first out of Spitzeder's hotel rooms and later her house." Also this should clarify, was it Spitzeder's hotel room or out of the hotel as a whole. (This is already clarified in an earlier sentence, that it was multiple rooms.)
  •  Done SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Public image, bankruptcy and prison sections

No issues.

Personal life

• "Despite her demonstrative Christian demeanor, she tended to have an entourage composed mostly of young, attractive women." Again with this phrasing, it seems to imply in Wikipedia's voice that a person of Christian demeanor should not have female friends. I'm thinking perhaps that the first half could be omitted, and just mention her entourage of women. I undertand that at the time, the differences between expressed Christian values and Ms. Spitzeder's sexuality would have provided for more of a contrast, according to local observers. But perhaps it could be worded to explain this better as a view that existed at that time, as surely this same view has been moderated in more modern times. What are your ideas on this?
  •  Rephrased. How is it now? SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "After her release from prison, Spitzeder went abroad because no one in Germany wanted to hire her as an actor" can be "After her release from prison, Spitzeder went abroad, as no one in Germany wanted to hire her as an actor." This could be a good place to mention the use of actor versus actress — there have been multiple discussions about the use of one term over another, including Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_118#Actor_vs_Actress_terminology. Unfortunately none of the discussions I could find were resolved with any conclusion. As my preferences would be irrelevant here, I'm happy with leaving it the way it is, with actor being used.
  •  Done. The change from actress to actor was made by the editor doing a GOCE copyedit. I don't have a preference either way. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• "Her family posthumously changed her name to Adele Schmid" - I'm wondering if this might go in the infobox under aliases? Although if that parameter is meant primarily for names used while living, it wouldn't need to be placed there, since this name was posthumous.
  • That was my thinking too. Alias implies use by the person. SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Works about Spitzeder

No issues.

Literature

Since they didnt have ISBN's, I found OCLC's for a few of these items:

PLAYS AND NOVELS

• Adele Spitzeder Marionettenspiel um einen Münchner Finanzskandal im Jahre 1873 ; wortgetreue Wiedergabe einer alten Handschrift (in German). Puppentheatermuseum. 1981. OCLC 75843921.
• Albrecht-Weinberger, Karl (1956). Adele Spitzeder; Roman einer seltsamen Frau (in German). Maindruck. OCLC 36066656.
• Rehn, Heidi (2009). Tod im Englischen Garten: historischer Kriminalroman (in German). Köln: Emons Verlag. ISBN 9783897055070. OCLC 682116597.
  •  used, thanks for finding them! Regards SoWhy 16:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Copyvio check

No issues.

Checklinks

No issues.

Closing comments

Thank you to the nominator for all their assistance!  Spintendo  15:54, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

GA Review table

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Prose is well written, due mostly to the excellent translation of the nominating editor with the assistance of local editors.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	All WP:MOS guidelines have been followed.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	The article uses Citation Style 1 in accordance with that style's rules.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Proper use of the {{rp}} template where it was necessary. All links in the references found to be in working order. A search of English-based databases (ProQuest, EBSCO, Gale & Weslaw) showed a distinct lack of English language sources available on the subject. Many more sources were available from German language references (and used here) which all appear to meet the requirements for reliable sources both on German Wikipedia (de:WP:BLG) and its English counterpart (WP:RS).
	2c. it contains no original research.	The article contains research, but that research has been done by writers and banking industry historians, and thus, does not meet the definition of original research
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Main aspects addressed.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	The prose stays on topic.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Although the subject would be considered a criminal, the subject matter is approached fairly and with a neutral point of view.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Article is stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	All images appear to be in the public domain or have been added through the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	All media used are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	For the reasons listed above, it is this reviewer's opinion that the article meets all GA status requirements.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

General comment

I've read through it, not so much straining for the picky points I often do, but just reading it. I think it's pretty good but could benefit from copyediting as I see a tendency to use more words than necessary. Suggest a peer review, at which I will be happy to participate. One "big picture" question: Did the move in Germany from the silver standard to the gold standard in the early 1870s play any part in this saga?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:01, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: Thanks for the comments. I'll try to fix it up as much as I can with my limited skills and then submit it to peer review (hopefully by this weekend). As for the question, I did not find any source mentioning silver or gold standard. I'm no expert in this field but from what I can gather, it's unlikely because the German gold mark was only legally introduced on 4 December 1871 and was legal tender from 1873 onward, so at the time of Spitzeder's activity (1869-1872) the South German gulden was the only currency and people had no reason to suspect that another standard might exist since they also had no reason to expect the German empire to be established in 1871 (see de:Goldmark for more details). Regards SoWhy 14:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

We missed getting this input a few weeks ago, where it would have been warmly received and much appreciated. But I thank you on my behalf for any continued improvements you can bring to bear on the article. I'll go ahead and section off the GA review above so as not to conflict with any future peer review input which may be placed here on the talk page. Thanks again!  Spintendo  13:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Girlfriend vs. companion

My gut feeling is that companion is a better translation of Freundin when a lesbian relationship has been stated or implied, especially a live-in one. The Oxford on my phone gives "a long-term sexual partner outside marriage" as one meaning. Either term could mean lesbian or straight, however, depending on the context. I will check with some female friends. Jmar67 (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I used LEO which only gives me "friend"; "girlfriend" or "pal" as normal translations. "Companion" can mean "sexual partner (non-married)" but it can also mean "pal", "associate", "accomplice" or "mate", so I think if we want readers to quickly know that this was a romantic/sexual relationship, we should use a word that clearly implies it. I'm not fixated on "girlfriend", mind you. How about "lover" instead? Regards SoWhy 11:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Certainly less ambiguous. That occurred to me early on but I fixed on companion, which I had seen used this way before. Jmar67 (talk) 12:09, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Opted for Freundin = close friend and "companion" for context of living together. Saw one ref with Geliebte but that was not translated. We do not need to stress the lesbian angle. That will be clear. Jmar67 (talk) 00:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

In German, "Geliebte" - at least in history, did not imply living together, rather the opposite: extramarital and more or less secret, - I guess mistress would be the translation, not lover, nor always beloved which was more used for presumably unrequited love, see Beethoven's Unsterbliche Gelibte. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it's less about stressing the lesbian angle and more about avoiding the appearance of hiding it. A "close friend" is someone dear to you but usually, at least in my understanding, not someone you have a romantic or sexual relationship with. I have multiple close friends but I only have one girlfriend. Hence, the article should not use a phrase that denotes something you usually have more than one of when talking about something you usually only have one of.

I still fail to see what was wrong with "girlfriend" which Oxford defines as A person's regular female companion with whom they have a romantic or sexual relationship. On the other hand, a sexual relationship is only one of multiple definitions for companion and the definition of friend says A person with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically one exclusive of sexual or family relations. (emphasis added). I also don't think you should keep changing these phrases while we are discussing what to use, it just complicates things. Regards SoWhy 07:22, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

"you usually have one of" is what makes me feel uneasy about "girlfrind", because it reads as if she had more than one, - especially the term "entourage" sounds like that. The proper German term - admittedly with irony in it - is "Lebensabschnittsgefährte", in response to "Lebensgefährte", companion for life. I don't know English usage enough to tell, but talked to people who do, and said "gilrfriend" is fine, but after having said that you shouldn't say "friend" about the same person (but just use her name). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not intend to bypass the discussion. I suddenly thought of "close friend" as a compromise and "boldly" decided to implement it. The term "girlfriend" has a different meaning in a male-female relationship than in a female-female one. Let me think about it some more. Have restored article. Jmar67 (talk) 11:05, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Explain-tag

@EEng: Can you explain this tag? Regards SoWhy 13:33, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Can you explain what the reader is supposed to make of the statement Bavaria's King Ludwig I was infatuated with the Spitzeders and agreed to pay them 6,000 gulden yearly, with no other detail provided to elucidate the original or nature of this infatuation? EEng 17:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, complicated since the source does not say much more about it. I'll see if I can find another source that explains it in more detail. Regards SoWhy 17:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Well part of the problem may be the choice of the word infatuation. My high school German tells me the source is using an idiom meaning something more like greatly favored -- infatuation is more like when teenagers fall in love. But some explanation of the reason for this favor is in order as well. EEng 19:39, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

My primary school Australian had that definition, with gesticulations and emphasis on the first three syllables. I think the author is leaving it to the imagination, being obliquely suggestive, and paraphrasing that in German is one way of editing it in. cygnis insignis 20:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

The better translation would probably be "to be crazy about someone" but that did not really sound neutral enough. But something along these lines would be correct, so I'm open to suggestions for different phrasing. Regards SoWhy 20:07, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

'a keen interest' is all I can offer, perhaps those above can do better, but I always thought it about right as it was. cygnis insignis 20:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, the parents were actors and singers, so maybe he was a "great fan"? Anyway, where's Gerda Arendt when we need her? EEng 20:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

In choir rehearsals on Friday's (and then here, defending French culture), and first I'd have to know what the phrase is in German. "great fan" sounds anachronistic for the 19th century, so perhaps we rather might ask Moonraker, my expert for idiomatic translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

... which made my think a request to WP:GOCE might be a good idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

From the GA review (above), this used to be "was a fan of the Spitzeders" and was changed to "infatuated by". My translation would be the somewhat literal "couldn't get enough of the Spitzeders" or "couldn't get his fill of the Spitzeders". Langenscheidt suggests "he thought the Spitzeders were brilliant", which seems good for encyclopedic tone. Jmar67 (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

From what I can gather, Josef Spitzeder and Betty Spitzeder-Vio were engaged by the Royal Opera House in Munich at Ludwig's behest after he saw them perform. Both were "Königliche Hofschauspieler" (i.e. Royal Court actors), which was a big deal back then. I rephrase the whole sentence now and added some info, I think it should be good now. Regards SoWhy 16:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

We need to go back to the source, which says this: "Der sonst so sparsame bayerische König Ludwig I. hatte offensichtlich einen Narren an der Familie Spitzeder gefressen, denn erst stimmte er dem jährlichen Spitzengehalt des Sängerpaares von 6.000 Gulden zu..." I don't see how that can be put into "an encyclopaedic tone", and it certainly doesn't say the Spitzeders were brilliant, more that the king was unhinged by them. If there's any need to explain his generosity, then I would suggest saying Ludwig was "besotted with the Spitzeder family". Moonraker (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Considering the use of "offensichtlich" here, which is best translated as "apparently" in this context, the besotted-ment is probably more the author's interpretation of Ludwig's motives than literal infatuation. I had missed that when first writing the paragraph. I can remember finding an old source that spoke about Ludwig liking Josef's performance but I can't find it anymore. Regards SoWhy 18:16, 8 June 2019 (UTC)