Talk:Adventures in Odyssey/Archive 1

Spoiler Warning

Someone needs to add a spoiler warning -- this page contains semi-detailed plots, including some endings. I would do it myself, but I don't know how. The Editor 2 20:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

General Plans

I wanted to go over some general ideas/direction for anyone interested in helping improve this entry and related entries.

1. Separate the episodes into a standalone page (List of Adventures in Odyssey episodes).

2. Possibly create a separate list of characters page, and certainly create articles for the main characters.

3. Cleanup this page to better discuss AIO themes, the major arcs, Whit's inventions, and the history of the show's development.

4. Eventually, create infoboxes for individual episode pages.

This can serve as general direction for the page for now, and we'll see how it develops over time. Thoughts/comments? AnDrew McKenzie 01:58, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

Just a note - individual episode articles probably wouldn't last for long due to notability policy.

Agreed, I was a bit too eager on that bit. Ideally, the standalone episode list page will eventually have summaries of each episode, similar to (for example) the List of Star Trek: TNG episodes. I'm working on such a page here. As for this page, I had a reorganization in mind. Here are my thoughts:

• History of AIO
• AIO Format
• AIO Releases
• Themes
  • Religious themes
  • Small-town United States
• Characters
  • Major
  • Minor
  • Past
• Plot arcs
  • Dr. Regis Blackgaard
  • Barclay family
  • Novacom
• Show types (some of these may be better under an INVENTIONS heading)
  • BTV
  • KYDS Kids' Radio
  • Imagination Station
  • Room of Consequence
  • Transmuter
• Trivia
• See also
• References
• External links

I think, in general, we have too much specific information (inventions, characters) relative to general information about themes, plot arcs, and the history of the program. Let me know what you think. AnDrew McKenzie 16:52, 2005 August 20 (UTC)

I agree with that... maybe create a Adventures in Odyssey/temp working article. SH

The above has been implemented -- discussion regarding changes can continue at Talk:Adventures in Odyssey/temp.

Now transfer it into the main article, so people can find it. Davidizer13 20:10, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

If you are still wanting to create individual episode, album, etc pages you can...there has recently been launched a new AIO Wiki website. That way there would be no worry about notability and appopriateness.Blipadouzi 16:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Castles & Cauldrons" episode issues

I've only heard parts of the two episodes, but basically, they are ... highly contraversial. First of all, since the episodes do not come right out and say Dungeons & Dragons this stuff put out by Focus on the Family can quite often do considerable damage to other fantasy companies who are not affiliated with Wizards of the Coast - some of them Christian owned and operated. The RPG universe is pretty big, and I'm not denying that there are some pretty nasty people who play some RPGs, including D&D, but the sort of blanket statements that many Christian organizations make about fantasy entertainment and literature - which I often point out were originally popularized by Christians (i.e. Tolkien and Lewis and Bunyan) can leave the wrong impression in the minds of many impressionable people.

I think Dr. Dobson (whom I've met once, though he wouldn't remember me, I just shook his hand LOL) just sort of got caught up and went along with the D&D Conspiracy Theory that many christians came up with when a bunch of stories scared a bunch of little old ladies who told other people who eventually started an international ... I guess you could call it "christian Anti-Fantasy movement" and these episodes of Adventures in Odessy" did alot to add fuel to the fire. And I do mean a fire. Actual book burnings have happened. (not to me personally or my books lol, I don't have any of that D&D crap)

I'm a Christian, I'm trying to write a fantasy novel, and I like to listen to Advetnures in Odessy. I find alot of the other products Focus on the Family produces are so similar to RPGs that I'm amazed they don't even register the existance of companies like Square-Enix when they say absurd things about RPGs.

So basically I'm wondering whether this article ought to explore some of these issues related to tese episodes and other contraversial episodes of Adventures in Oddessy. And I added Eugene to the "List of fictional nerds" LOL --Nerd42 04:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

DGL reference removed

I have removed the statement in the introduction that said the radio drama Down Gilead Lane is a spinoff of Adventures in Odyssey. DGL is not a spinoff, and is marketed by CBH ministries, not Focus on the Family. They are seperate radio dramas. DrWatson 19:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)DrWatson

Rewrite

(comments added from Talk:Adventures in Odyssey/Temp

Pursuant to the discussion at Talk:Adventures in Odyssey, I am beginning this page to rewrite the Adventures in Odyssey entry. I believe the current entry fails readers in a number of regards. First, it fails to provide significant detail on the development or creators of the series. Second, it does not give significant information regarding plot arcs, major characters, or spinoffs, but rather contains several lists that are not particularly helpful to those unfamiliar with the program. Finally, the information is not organized in a very intuitive or encyclopedic format. (Note: I have authored sections of the original article, so I'm not blaming anyone!) Thus, I would like to rewrite the entry to follow a more clearly-defined, sensical format, explain more of the history of the program's development, plot arcs, and so forth. Also, see List of Adventures in Odyssey episodes for another related page recently spun-off from the old Adventures in Odyssey entry.

I am working with the outline I proposed here, but, as always, jump in with whatever improvements you might have. AnDrew McKenzie 20:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't have lots of time, but I used to have several of the audiotape albums when I was younger. If you need help with some of the older episodes (plotlines/storylines), I'd be willing to help. I listened to the tapes so much I can quote a lot of the episodes. --Jwinters | [[User talk:Jwinters|Talk]] 17:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I have time on my hands, enough to help with random obscure facts, if you need them. Mostly from more recent episodes... Sonuna 04:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Since this project is proceeding slowly (only a few edits in the past six months), I am beginning to migrate improvements from this project back to Adventures in Odyssey. Drew 01:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The improvements and additional content of this page have been migrated back to Adventures in Odyssey, where work will continue. I will submit this page for deletion. Drew 15:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Goals

1. Finish writing sections (much work to do)
2. Order sections properly (tentatively done)
3. Sub-sections (tentatively done)
4. Related articles (tentatively done)
5. Prettytable? (done)
6. Fix broken sectional links (to episode list)
7. summary section

original article episodes characters

AnDrew McKenzie 17:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Water-phobic Aliens?

Would it be worth pointing out that the alien's weakness in 'Terror from the Skies' (the 'War of the Worlds' based episode) is nearly identical to those in the 2002 M. Night Shyamalan film 'Signs'? 75.164.148.208 06:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that no, it wouldn't be worth pointing out, though one could mention that 'Terror from the Skies' is a spoof mixing elements from several popular alien stories. Paixpirate 23:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Tom/Bart (a.k.a. Farewell Mr. Edminston)

First off, I didn't know Walker Edminston (who voiced both Tom Riley and Bart Rathbone) passed away. Second, I'm a little curious as to the status of Tom Riley and Bart Rathbone (the former being, along with Whit, the only characters left from its Family Portraits roots) as to whether they will hire a new voice/voices or discontinue the characters. WAVY 10 20:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"Apple Sauce"

I listend to the episodes concerning codename "Applesauce", but that was in, what? 2002 or 2003? I've LONG SINCE forgotten that episode. To he who answers, please answer at my talk page.Philippe Auguste 00:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The program has roots in 1988, but it came up again during the Novacom saga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erwin Springer (talk • contribs) 02:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Religious Intollerance Neutrality

While when writing out the section about religious intollerance reguarding "Focus on the Family", I did consider that it may be viewed as on the side of the pagans, but unfortunately there is no counter-argument from the writers of the program besides that which was stated- and that doesn't exactly give a neutral influence on the article. Are there any suggestions as to how this particular segment could be written in a more neutral fashion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.131.55 (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Edited Episodes

I believe this issue was addressed long ago when it stated in the "Complete Guide" that some radio episodes are edited for time whereas the audio series are the complete episodes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mak1457 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Should this article be renamed 'Adventures in Odyssey video games'?

(The title was a joke, in case people didn't notice.)

But seriously, 4 of the 5 citations for this article are for the video games, not the show. This seem indicative of a severe problem in finding sources on, and thus establishing the notability of, the underlying radio show. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I have only begun adding sources. "Video games" is the only section in which I have written myself, not based on anything. I will (hopefully) be adding sources to the entire article, when I get around to it. (You all can help!) God bless, ✼ American Eagle (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Music section

In the music section, it is tagged with {{cleanup-laundry}}. However, the only list within that section is the track listing. Is there something wrong with it? Or does it need to be MoS-fixed? I want to fix it, but I'm not sure what needs fixing. Thank you. TheAE talk/sign 05:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

(i) You would rarely (if ever) see track listings of albums except in articles about the albums themselves. (ii) As was pointed out in the AfD these albums fail on WP:SPEEDY #A7, so their individual track-listings surely meet the "items which are not notable" criteria. Lacking any third-party notice of the existence of these albums, a mere note of their existence in the article should suffice. Incidentally, the album-covers in this section also violate WP:NFC#Images #1 "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrafn (talk • contribs) 02:24, January 11, 2009

OR in the lead

I would point out that, even if the various lists (in this article and related ones) were cited, summarising their number in the lead of this article is borderline WP:SYNTH. As they are uncited, the numbers in the lead based upon them are pure WP:OR. Find a source for these numbers (preferred), or at the very least, provide citations for the lists that they are based upon. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

OR sections from the article

I'm moving here two three sections, previously tagged as WP:OR [/unsourced]. If RSes can be found for any of this material, it can be reintroduced at that time. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hatted for sake of talk page. TheAE talk/sign 04:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
Special show types In addition to normal shows, which involve characters in the Odyssey fictional universe, a few other formats are frequently used (in, perhaps, 10% of episodes). These divergent formats are usually connected to Odyssey by such devices as inventions of John Avery Whittaker, for instance. BTV BTV is a television show in Odyssey that is hosted by Bernard Walton. BTV episodes consist of several different segments that focus on a common topic. Usually the topics deal with Biblical topics with a few extra historical and scientific tibits thrown in. KYDS Kids Radio Kids Radio is a radio station run out of Whit's End. While it doesn't necessarily broadcast continually, it has been used to tell many stories. A few of the broadcasted shows have included The Twilife Zone (a parody of The Twilight Zone, an idea which started much earlier through normal characters' dream sequences and turned into a Kids Radio program), The Jimmy Barclay Show, Candid Conversations with Connie, "Ask Mitch", (later changed to "Ask Doctor Wise") and O.T. Action News. The Imagination Station The Imagination Station is undoubtedly the most often-used plot device, outside of the major characters and "Whit's End"/Odyssey as a whole, in AIO. Indeed, it is almost a character itself, having evolved throughout the AIO storyline and playing a major role in most AIO plot arcs. The Imagination Station is one of John Avery Whittaker's inventions. People can use the station to experience historical and biblical events in a seemingly more-immersive version of virtual reality. The general concept is similar in many respects to the Star Trek holodeck. The station is typically used for educational and for other productive reasons; however, on one occasion the fictional corporation Novacom attempted to exploit its technology to enslave the entire world. In the video series episode "The Knight Travellers", the Imagination Station is used by the villain as a mind-control device, redesigned as the "Manipulation Station". The Room of Consequence The "Room of Consequence", another of Whit's inventions, was introduced in episode #236, "Into Temptation". The idea is that just as the Imagination Station allows individuals to step into the past, the Room of Consequence allows them to see a possible future, usually extrapolated from the decisions the person is making in the present. Unlike the Imagination Station, the Room of Consequence does not appear to allow for significant interaction with the future environment. The Room of Consequence plays a much smaller role in AIO than the Imagination Station, with only ten episodes including it to date. The Transmuter The Transmuter is another one of John Avery Whittaker's inventions. Just as The Imagination Station allows a person to experience the past, and The Room of Consequence allows a person to see a possible future, the Transmuter allows a person to experience the present from another person's point of view. This lets you experience events from a perspective you normally wouldn't be able to see. It debuted in episode #419, "Another Man's Shoes". The Transmuter is described as bearing a resemblance to the weight scales in a doctor's office. Criticisms Officer David Harley Officer Harley made his first appearance in the third AIO episode, "Lights Out at Whit's End." His final appearance was on a 2 part arc called "The Return of Harley" in 1989. Officer Harley was a local Police Officer that was not too bright but had a good heart and good intentions. His appearance on the show caused some negative responses from parents, who thought that his persona would send the wrong message about real police officers. Although the Adventures in Odyssey team did not agree with the negative feedback, they eventually decided to drop his character from future shows. Will Ryan, who voiced Officer Harley, was then given a new main character (Eugene Meltsner). Soon thereafter, a strikingly similar character named Harlow Doyle was introduced, though being that he was a private investigator rather than a uniformed officer, his bumbling antics could bring humor to the series without casting the police in a bad light. Only three episodes that include Officer Harley are still re-aired unedited or included in updated album releases. The majority of Officer Harley's shows were later re-recorded and released in 1990 with new episode titles and different characters. The rest of his shows were slightly edited to remove him, or permanently pulled from future broadcasts. Edited Episodes Various episodes have been edited for inclusion on tapes, CDs, and re-broadcasts, and there have been complaints. The most well known edits occurred in the Harley episodes, but there have been additional changes over the years. Almost all of the approximately first hundred episodes have had their introductions and closings partially re-recorded or completely removed. Most of these changes occurred when the daily Adventures in Odyssey broadcast began in the early 90s. Since the old episodes would be re-broadcast periodically on this show, they were updated to match the newer episodes of the time, but this led to a shorter running time for many early episodes. The unedited episodes have not been available for over a decade, and recent releases such as the "Lost Episodes" continue to use edited versions. Shows Format Adventures in Odyssey episodes are written to convey some moral principle, and a Bible reference verse. Most radio episodes are written a half-hour long. However, many episodes are split into several half-hour segments, which often creates a saga. The show is began with a short introduction from the host, Chris, followed by John Campbell-composed theme music. After the show itself ends, Chris concludes the episode with a recapitulation and biblical reference. The theme song has remained the same since the beginning of Adventures in Odyssey, although there have been variations. Broadcasting AIO is broadcast through thousands of radio stations in the United States and Canada. Originally, AIO broadcast once a week on Saturday, and almost every week would air a new episode - several years went by with a new episode broadcasting every single week. Once the show had become popular in the early 1990s, radio stations began requesting that AIO also air on the weekdays. By this time several hundred episodes had been recorded and the daily Adventures in Odyssey broadcasts began. The daily show consisted only of older episodes, and most of these episodes had to be updated to match changes that had occurred in the program. Once the older episodes had all been updated, the format of new AIO episodes was changed so that future episodes could be re-broadcast without modifications. Releases Main article: List of Adventures in Odyssey episodes Adventures in Odyssey has released a total of 51 albums. In 2006, Focus on the Family announced that album 45 would be the last album to be released on both cassette tape and Compact Disc, limiting future releases to Compact Disc only. [End of removed OR HrafnTalkStalk(P) 06:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC) ]

Vague description

"and in particular, a self-described "ice cream and discovery[vague] emporium" titled "Whit's End,"

Perhaps...

"and in particular, an ice cream shop and learning center titled "Whit's End,"

TheAE talk/sign 04:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Neither really give a coherent impression of the emporium in question:

• "ice cream and discovery emporium" gives the impression of 'would you like the cure for the common cold with your banana split?' If it's an X emporium, it is selling X.
• "ice cream shop and learning center" gives the impression that in between serving ice cream Whit whips out a blackboard, chalk & pointer to give a quick lecture on some subject. "Learning center" = 'educational institution' in most contexts.

The question is, what goods or services, apart from ice cream, is 'Whit's End' selling? If it isn't part of the formal business model, then it should probably be attributed to the proprietor rather than the business (bartenders stereotypically dispense advice, but bars aren't described as advice bureaus). This is also the problem with basing virtually the entirety of the article on the primary source of the radio series itself -- you have nothing other than your WP:OR experience of it to base descriptions upon. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, in a sense, Whit's End is like Chuck E. Cheese's. It mainly just sells ice cream, but has activities (and learning inventions) to use for free. TheAE talk/sign 23:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but such facilities are aimed at selling food that takes longer to eat than an ice cream, and so have a far greater potential for entertaining the kids to be an advantage (I can't ever remember seeing kids need distraction while eating ice cream). Their articles also provide meaningful descriptions of the facilities they offer for this bundled service. "Activities" is again uselessly vague, and "learning inventions" is yet another inarticulate phrase that has no clear meaning in this context (I take it the inventions themselves are not learning, nor do they inject knowledge directly into people's minds?). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 03:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Hrafn, what do suggest? Do you have any ideas? Normally, I'd say just remove the phrase altogether, as it would be unneeded, but in this context, that is the centerpoint of the show, and important fictional setting. You seem to understand this topic better than I do (and you can explain it alright), so do you have a suggestion? I can't figure out much of anything. TheAE talk/sign 03:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't really have any suggestions to make. Before I can suggest a coherent description, I would need a coherent conceptualisation of what is going on. The juxtaposition of the two aspects of the emporium don't appear to make real-world sense as a business plan, so would appear to be a plot device (though not the most absurd one I've seen, BTW) -- making it even more difficult to get my head around. I'd suggest you describe, here on talk, some of the more typical "activities" and "learning inventions" involved. I suspect it'd work best as something along the lines of 'an ice cream emporium named 'Whit's End', and its proprietor, John Avery Whittaker, who offers a range of XXX for the entertainment of his customers.' Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 04:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, most of the "activities" are actually Whittaker's inventions. Therefore, your example above seems fitting. How about, "...an ice cream shop named "Whit's End," and its owner, John Avery Whittaker, an inventor who creates learning and entertainment devices for use the the shop, most notably the Imagination Station." Perhaps it is a bit long/wordy. I removed two key words in it: "emporium", according to the linked article, Whit's End is not an emporium; and "proprietor", hard to understand word, really unneeded. TheAE talk/sign 04:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking through some of the OR previously removed from the article, the following would appear to be appropriate: 'an ice cream emporium named 'Whit's End', and its proprietor, John Avery Whittaker, an inventor who offers his customers the use of his many fantastical inventions allowing them to experience possible futures, the past and events from other people's point of view.' Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I have changed the wording to this. It seems correct from a fictional point of view of the series, also. TheAE talk/sign 03:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable fiction

Although still only a proposed guideline, WP:FICTION offers some guidance as to the sort of things an article on a piece of fiction should be talking about (both to demonstrate notability, and to provide an informative article):

1. Importance of the fictional work: To justify articles on individual elements, the fictional work from which they come must have produced significant artistic impact, cultural impact, or general popularity. This is shown when the work (not the element) exceeds the relevant notability guidelines.
2. ...
3. Real-world coverage: Significant real-world information must exist on the element. Examples of real-world coverage include: creative influences, design processes, critical commentary, and cultural reception. Sometimes this real-world perspective can be established through the use of sources with a connection to the creators of the fictional work, such as creator commentary. Merely listing the notable works where the fictional element appears, their respective release dates, and the names of the production staff is not sufficient. In practice, this is generally the most important of the three prongs.

I have summarised some of the relevant portions of this in a 'missing information' template. The article really needs to cover at least some of these areas. A mere list of characters & spin-off products is really not adequate for an article. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll try to look more into it tomorrow. Thanks. TheAE talk/sign 06:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Fan site?

After looking through the article, I don't see what left it resembles a "fansite". I did not add the tag, so don't think I'll remove it, but I'm pretty sure that issue has been dealt with. TheAE talk/sign 04:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed. It was put in in early January, when the article was over twice its current size -- mostly OR WP:FANCRUFT. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Yay! The article has been improved since then. :) TheAE talk/sign 05:43, 25 February 2009 (UTC)