Talk:Adyghe grammar

Nominative case

I'm a little confused by what's being called the "nominative" case. If e.g. кIалэр is used to when a boy is the subject of intransitive verbs and the direct object of connecting verbs, when would кIалэ be used? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 14:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

for example кIалэр - the boy is, кIалэр дахэ - the boy is pretty (дахэ = pretty), кIэлэ дахэ - pretty boy, кIалэр макIо - the boy is going (макIо = he's going), кIэлэ мэкIо - a walking boy. Another example : кIалэ гуэр - some boy (гуэр = some), кIалэ гуэрэ - some boy is, кIалэ гуэрэ макIо - some boy is going, кIалэ сиI - i have a boy (сиI = i have ). кIалэр - the boy is, дахэр - the pretty is, бзылфыгъэр - the women is, Куэйэр - the village is, тхылъэр - the book is. When the word with the "nominative" case is in the middle of the sentence it is like this : бзылфыгъэм кIалэр ичас - the women like the boy (бзылфыгъэ = women and ичас = he like), бзылфыгъэм кIалэ ичIас - the women like a boy. --Adamsa123 (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Personality prefix

Can some one please help me do a chart like this?--Adamsa123 (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing.

	Prefix				Meaning	Example
	dynamic verbs		steady-state verbs			dynamic verbs	steady-state verbs
	Cyrillic	IPA	Cyrillic	IPA
1st person	сэ-	/sa-/	сы-	/sə-/	"I"
2nd person	уэ-	/wa-/	уы- or п-	/wə-/ or /p-/	"you"
3rd person	ма-	/maː-/	мэ-	/ma-/	"he"

— Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 03:11, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Just a tiny fix: replaced з's with э's (сэ-, уэ-, мэ-) in the table above. AlexNB (talk) 07:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks--Adamsa123 (talk) 08:11, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Can someone please turn this next two charts into one chart like this?. I think it's better this way.--Adamsa123 (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Singular form:

	Prefix		meaning	example
	Cyrillic	IPA
1-st person	с- or сы~	/s~/ or /sə~/	"my"	сыгу - my heart (səɡʷ); сшыпхъу - my sister (sʃəpχʷ)
2-st person	п~ or у-	/p~/ or /w~/	"your"	плъакъо - your leg (pɬaːqʷa); угу - your heart (wɡʷ)
3-st person	ы- (ə-)	/ə~/	"his"	ылъакъо - his leg (əɬaːqʷa); ышыпхъу - his sister (əʃəpχʷ)

Plural form:

	Prefix		meaning	example
	Cyrillic	IPA
1-st person	тэ- or т-	/ta~/ or /t~/	"our"	тIэхэр - our hands (tʔaxar); тлъакъохэр - our legs (tɬaːqʷaxar)
2-st person	шъо- or шъу-	/ʂʷa~/ or /ʂʷə~/	"your"	шъулъакъохэр - your legs (ʂʷəɬaːqʷaxar); шъошыпхъу - your sister (ʂʷaʃəpχʷ)
3-st person	a-	/aː~/	"their"	алъакъо - their legs (aːɬaːqʷa); ашыпхъу - their sister (aːʃəpχʷ)

Here it is:

		Prefix		meaning	example
		Cyrillic	IPA
Singular form	1st person	с- or сы~	/s~/ or /sə~/	"my"	сыгу - my heart (səɡʷ); сшыпхъу - my sister (sʃəpχʷ)
	2nd person	п~ or у-	/p~/ or /w~/	"your"	плъакъо - your leg (pɬaːqʷa); угу - your heart (wɡʷ)
	3rd person	ы- (ə-)	/ə~/	"his"	ылъакъо - his leg (əɬaːqʷa); ышыпхъу - his sister (əʃəpχʷ)
Plural form	1st person	тэ- or т-	/ta~/ or /t~/	"our"	тIэхэр - our hands (tʔaxar); тлъакъохэр - our legs (tɬaːqʷaxar)
	2nd person	шъо- or шъу-	/ʂʷa~/ or /ʂʷə~/	"your"	шъулъакъохэр - your legs (ʂʷəɬaːqʷaxar); шъошыпхъу - your sister (ʂʷaʃəpχʷ)
	3rd person	a-	/aː~/	"their"	алъакъо - their legs (aːɬaːqʷa); ашыпхъу - their sister (aːʃəpχʷ)

— AlexNB (talk) 20:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks--Adamsa123 (talk) 20:24, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Nominative or absolutive?

If the "nominative" case is used for the object of a transitive verb, and the subject of an intransitive verb, doesn't that make it an absolutive case rather than a nominative? CodeCat (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes. --JorisvS (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Should the article be changed, then? CodeCat (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It already has been. I just fixed the last two (misspelled) instances. --JorisvS (talk) 09:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Verb

In those sentences is the verb a transitive or a intransitive.

кIалэр	пшъашъэм	еплъы
[t͡ʃaːlar	pʂaːʂam	japɬə]
boy (abs.)	girl (erg.)	He is looking at
"The boy is looking at the girl"

кIалэр	пъашъэм	еупчы
[t͡ʃaːlar	pʂaːʂam	jawpt͡ʃə]
boy (abs.)	girl (erg.)	He is asking him
"The boy is asking the girl"

кIалэр	гитарым	къеуэ
[t͡ʃaːlar	gitaːrəm	qewa]
boy (abs.)	guitar (erg.)	He is playing it
"The boy is playing the guitar"

Note the verb is done by the Absolutive case noun.--Adamsa123 (talk) 08:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Logically transitive, because there are nouns in both the absolutive and the ergative case in these sentences. Should the verbs really literally (morpheme by morpheme) be analyzed as you've indicated? --JorisvS (talk) 12:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The examples are fine. The Intransitive verb of the word "he is looking" will be маплъэ (with the prefix м- (m-)). Then there are cases that an Absolutive case noun can do both transitive verbs and Intransitive verbs.--Adamsa123 (talk) 05:57, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Right, split ergativity. So here a nominative–accusative construction is used? --JorisvS (talk) 08:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I really don't know, the Ergative case nouns can only do the transitive verbs. The Absolutive case nouns usually do intransitive verbs. There are some transitive verbs (Like the verbs in the examples above) that can be done by a Absolutive case noun and not by a Ergative case noun.--Adamsa123 (talk) 17:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Then for those verbs Adyghe displays a nominative–accusative structure: split ergativity. --JorisvS (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It looks to me like it's the verb sense itself that is flipped, like it has come to mean 'be played by'. CodeCat (talk) 20:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if this scheme matches: A transitive verb requires a direct object and has ergative agreement: the direct object will be in absolutive case, the subject will always be in ergative case. Or it may have two objects, one direct (in absolutive case) and another indirect (in ergative case), in addition to the subject which is always ergative. An intransitive verb doesn't take a direct object and has nominative agreement: it will have a subject only (always in absolutive case), or a subject (always in absolutive case) and an indirect object (in ergative case). So in these three sentences the verbs seem to be intransitive, "the girl" and "the guitar" being indirect objects. AlexNB (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Instrumental case

кIалэхэмкIэ	хэт	янэхь	дахэр?
[t͡ʃaːlaxamt͡ʃa	xat	jaːnaħ	daxar]
boy (Ins.)	Who	Most	The pretty (person) (Abs.)
"Among the boys, who is the prettiest?"

Just wondering, in this sentence is the noun "boys" a Instrumental case?--Adamsa123 (talk) 16:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

You mean that the sentence means "Who of the boys is the prettiest?", right? Apparently it is grammatically in the case that is called 'instrumental', though it does not look like any usage an instrumental would have. I'm wondering, how does Adyghe handle possessive relations like "the woman's dog"? --JorisvS (talk) 20:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

бзылфыгъэм	ихьэ	макIо
[bzəlfəʁam	jəħa	maːkʷʼa]
women (Erg.)	His/Her dog	he is going
"The women's dog is going"

хьэ = Dog.--Adamsa123 (talk) 23:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Determiner

I don't know if you can call them a Determiner.

а (ʔaː)

1. that

   а бэнанэ — that banana.

A person or object that is usually invisible by the speaker or by the listener(s) (The speaker or the listener don't see the person or the object directly). Usually it's about something or someone far away from the speaker and the listener.

гьэ (gʲa) or джэ (d͡ʒa)

1. that

   гьэ бэнанэ — that banana.

This one is really hard to explain. Unlike the first "determiner" (а (ʔaː)), The object or the person that the speaker is talking about doesn't have to be far. A example will be : yes that one!, that is the boy i am talking about!.

ду (dəw) or мо (maw)

1. that

   ду бэнанэ — that banana.

A person or object that the listener(s) isn't aware of, for example Hey, do you see that old man over there. Another example will be if i tell my friend : дыу кӀалэр улъагъуа - do you see that boy? (кӀалэ - boy, улъагъуа - do you see him), my friend will start looking around looking for that boy that i am talking about.

у (wə)

1. that

   у бэнанэ — that banana.

A person or object that the listener(s) is already aware of, for example that old man said. In this case the listener(s) already know which old man i am talking about.

мэ (ma) and мы (mə)

1. this

   мы бэнанэ — this banana.

Exactly like English this. This object, this person, this thing.

тэ (ta}

1. which

   тэ бэнанэ? — which banana?

This is like saying : which object?, which person?.

Now if someone can explain this better in the article.--Adamsa123 (talk) 13:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

They're definitely determiners. Try answering questions like the following: Can the speaker and or the addressee see the referent? Was the referent already introduced in previous discourse? How far away from the speaker, addressee, and any other people must the referent be (in absolute terms and relative to each)? How do the various determiners relate to each other on the dimensions?

Also, if you write something like 'usually', could you indicate when what follows is not the case? --JorisvS (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

There are no rules when to use each determiner. The questions above aren't matter. Let's take for example in the English language when you see some boy walking in front of you on the street, you have the option to say that boy and this boy. Now if that boy is far away and you don't see it, you won't go saying this boy because the listener will not have any idea which boy it's about. The determiner (а) gives the feeling that the referent is far away. The determiner (гьэ) gives the feeling that the speaker wants to show that this is the referent that he talks about. Both the determiner (ду) and (у) can be used in the same situation, and in both the referent must be visible to both the speaker and the listener. The determiner (ду) is used when the listener isn't aware who is the referent, for example : Do you see that boy over there?, That old man over there is saying. The determiner (у) gives the feeling that the listener already know what or who is the referent. Both determiner (ду) and (у) might be used while pointing one's finger at the people or objects in question. The determiner (мэ) is just like the English "this".--Adamsa123 (talk) 15:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

If the person you're talking to is there with you on the same side of the street, then one will say "that boy" to refer to a boy on the other side of the street. If the person you're talking to is farther away (say on the phone), then one may say "this boy", unless for some reason the other side of the street is again perceived as far away. In Spanish, when the referent is closest to the speaker one generally says "este", if the referent is closest to the addressee "ese", and if neither (so the referent is at some distance) "aquel" (I'm not familiar with any complicating factors, however). So there are definitely rules (otherwise having multiple determiners would not be useful for communication). Some criteria may not be relevant in a language, however, e.g. who can actually see the referent is not directly relevant in English (only indirectly, via the perception of distance). --JorisvS (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

But not the kind of rules you mentioned above (questions).--Adamsa123 (talk) 16:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Could you come up with the useful questions/rules? --JorisvS (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Like i said before, there are no specific rules when to use each determiner. The determiner "а" and "гьэ" are used when the referent is invisible (not seen). The determiner "ду" and "у" are used when the referent is visible. There are no rules when to use the determiner "а" or "гьэ" and the same thing with "ду" and "у".--Adamsa123 (talk) 21:32, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

You say there are no specific rules and immediately give one! So why would I say ду бэнанэ and not у бэнанэ? --JorisvS (talk) 22:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

It's very difficult to answer that because you can use both of them in the case situation. The determiner "у" just gives this feeling that the listener is aware who is the referent. So it's up to your mind to chose which determiner ("ду" and "у") to use.--Adamsa123 (talk) 22:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Then the rule seems to be that ду introduces something new (to the listener), whereas у doesn't. Right? --JorisvS (talk) 08:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. What I am trying to say is those aren't rules you have to obey to. It isn't wrong to introduce something new with у, although it is better to use ду in this case.--Adamsa123 (talk) 09:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

How would the listener react when I would refer to something s/he wasn't aware of using у? --JorisvS (talk) 09:29, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The same as ду. s/he will start looking around looking for the referent. If the listener is aware what or who is the referent, there is no reason to use ду.--Adamsa123 (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

"there is no reason to use ду" — What would be a reason to use ду? --JorisvS (talk) 10:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

When the listener is not aware who is the referent.--Adamsa123 (talk) 11:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Then I, as a listener, would expect to hear ду when someone is calling attention to something new, and maybe think something like 'Hey! We weren't talking about that yet' when I hear him/her use у instead. Not? --JorisvS (talk) 11:09, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

What you said about ду is true. The best example i could give in English is the word "that" in : do you see that boy over there (this could be said while pointing your finger at that boy). What you said about hearing him/her use у instead is not true. In that case you will response the same as if he/she used ду.

Using ду is like pointing your finger. If the listener is aware what or who is the referent, there is no point in pointing your finger at the referent right?, because the listener already aware who is the referent. That why i said there is no reason to use ду in a situation like that.--Adamsa123 (talk) 12:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Absolutive case or nominative case

Are the nouns with the suffix -р /r/ absolutive case or nominative case? According to this [site] and [this] they are Nominative cases.

Here are three possible different sentence cases:

кIалэр	мащхэ	пшъашъэм	иунэкӀэ
[t͡ʃaːlar	maːɕxa	pʂaːʂam	jəwnat͡ʃa]
boy (abs.)	he is eating (intransitive verb)	girl (erg.)	his/her house (ins.)
"The boy is eating in the girl's house"

кIалэм	бэнанэр	ещхы
[t͡ʃaːlam	banaːnar	jaɕxə]
boy (erg.)	banana (abs.)	he is eating (transitive verb)
"The boy is eating the banana"

If the noun banana didn't had the suffix -р /r/ it would have meant: кIалэм бэнанэ ещхы - The boy is eating a banana.

кIалэр	бэнанэм	еплъы
[t͡ʃaːlar	banaːnam	japɬə]
boy (abs.)	banana (erg.)	he is looking (transitive verb)
"The boy is looking at the banana"

Is it possible that the nouns with the suffix -р /r/ are absolutive case in some cases and in other cases nominative case?--Adamsa123 (talk) 11:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The first two look like ergative–absolutive constructions, whereas the third looks like a nominative–accusative construction. --JorisvS (talk) 12:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think we'd need some more typical transitivity tests. — kwami (talk) 19:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Massive cleanup needed

The grammar is apalling, large parts of the article make no sense whatsoever, and far too many examples are being given, in an unorganised structure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.166.150.53 (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I think what's needed most is generalizations about the language's grammar. This seems like the data, but we need the prose. It's not clear what most of the cases do or when they're used. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Two kind of transitive verbs

In the Adyghe language there are two types of verbs : transitive verbs and intransitive verbs. The intransitive verbs in Adyghe usually have the prefix ма- /maː-/ for example маплъэ /maːpɬa/ "(s)he is looking, макӏо /maːkʷʼa/ "(s)he is going" and etc. The transitive verbs in Adyghe usually have the prefix е- /ja-/ for example еплъы /japɬə/ "(s)he is at him/her/it, еджэ /jad͡ʒa/ "(s)he is reading it" and etc.

The intransitive verbs are always done by absolutive case subjects, for example :

кӏалэр	еджапӏэм	макӏо
кӏалэ-р	еджапӏэ-м	ма-кӏо
[t͡ʃʼaːɮar	jad͡ʒaːpʼam	maːkʷʼa]
the boy (abs.)	the school (erg.)	he went
"the boy went to the school"

The transitive verbs are either can be done by absolutive case subjects or ergative case subjects, it depends on the whole sentence.

Example when a transitive verb is can be done by an absolutive case subject :

кӏалэр	тхылъым	еджэ
кӏалэ-р	тхылъы-м	е-джэ
[t͡ʃʼaːɮar	txəɬəm	jad͡ʒa]
the boy (abs.)	book (erg.)	(s)he reads it
"the boy is reading the book"

Example when a transitive verb is can be done by an ergative case subject :

кӏалэм	пшъашъэр	елъэгъу
кӏалэ-м	пшъашъэ-р	е-лъэгъу
[t͡ʃʼaːɮan	pʂaːʂar	jaɬaʁʷə]
the boy (erg.)	girl (abs.)	(s)he is seeing him/her/it
"the boy is seeing the girl"

Now if we were going to separate the transitive verbs into two groups, ones that are done by absolutive case subjects and ones that are done by ergative case, what should I call each group then?--Adamʂa123 (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of a word

Is тыкӏощт /təkʷʼat/ really correct? I think ɕ is missing there (təkʷʼaɕt). --Dorpater (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, ɕ is missing.--Adamʂa123 (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

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Pronouns

this is irrelevant to the topic, which is Adyge grammar. Athanasius V (talk) 13:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)