Talk:Albanian nationalism/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Supposed connection of M. Teresa with Albanian nationalism

The addition about M. Teresa did not reveal any connection with nationalist activity. On the contrary, the fact that in Albanian nationalism religion isn't a decisive factor makes this addition even more irrelevant in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I am surprised, how comes Mother Theresa is in this article? What does this figure has to do with nationalism? -- SILENTRESIDENT 19:44, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Easy, i have a source. Mother Teresa is used as a nationalist symbol.Resnjari (talk) 00:53, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The Albanian state is promoting Christian symbols to present Albania as a Christian state and people. Its part of the propaganda of the state that began with Rilindja that rejects its heritage by concocting a fake one to appease others in the region and internationally. Its also why there is the garbage theory of Pelagisian origins and why there are weirdo etymologies about names like Aferdita or Kristo, foreign names introduced by Enver that are now presented as "Albanian". Many Albanians have sadly lapped this brainwashing up not to mention that Albanian nationalism is highly Turkophobic and Islamophobic promoting the cult of Skanderbeg, a figure taken out of his 15th century context and made anew with myth and lies.Resnjari (talk) 01:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Be careful here, Resnjari; not all Albanians are favoring your pro-Islamic and pro-Turkic views on this matter. I shall remind you that what for you is deemed Islamophobic or Turkophobic, does not necessarily mean that they are nationalist concepts or that they belong to this article; Albania is home to 3 religious groups; Sunni Islam, Catholic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity. The attitude for example of the Albanian people towards Turkey may vary, depending on their personal beliefs and political views. It is well known especially among Christian populations which are fully aware of Turkey's genocidal practices of the past, as are the Christians in big parts of Europe which see Turkey pretty unfavorably for its refusal to recognize its past crimes unlike Germany for its Nazi past and the Colonial powers for their Colonialism. This has nothing to do with Turkophobia but about not endorsing the Turkish state's approach to historical events. Be warned that claims such as "brainwashed" and such, are an insult to people of different political views and are mere just your opinions and by no means they should be reflected on the article. And please refrain from claiming that Kristo and other Christian names are "foreign" to Albania. The Christian communities in both Albania and abroad are free to choose names in line with their religion, and the Christians of Albania lived there for thousands of years. By no means you can demote their religious names as being "foreign". This stinks of Christianophobia. Have a good day and please I do not want to see such opinions added to the article or they will be reverted without any delay, as this goes against NPOV. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:56, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

"Pro-Islamic and pro-Turkic" are your interpretations. I base myself on Western scholarship and the scholarship states very clearly that Albanian nationalism is a concoction of myths and fabrications with a lot of Islamophobia and Turkophobia. Now unless you can prove that not be the case frankly your interpretation of the scholarship relating to Albania is more on the wp:idontlikeit side. As for the Turkish state and Albania western scholarship notes those close ties. Nothing to hide there. On Turkey's genocidal past, it exists with the addition that 5 million Muslim civilians were expelled and an additional 5 and half million were killed during the 19th century and early 20th century by Russia and its Balkan allies before Turkey went down that genocidal path (i have scholarship on this, lots). On the name issue I have not encountered the name "Kristo" among Albanians in Albania before the communist era in sources. As all of you always say sources, sources, sources. So who knows, it might be part of that Christian heritage as you claim or one of those purported "Illyrian" or "Pelasgian" names recycled from some ancient necropolis and pumped into the population as communist nation building propaganda and given an Albanian etymology to cement the con. Enver blurred the line between what is real and fake so much that it is indistinguishable. There are names like the Muslim Fatmir and Fatimir (meaning 'good luck'), a commie newbie with the addition of an i Albanising it. In the end i am no Albanian nationalist and these precepts thank goodness were never ever instilled in me by my family or nationalist wackos. Best.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

You don't expect me to respond to this nonsense, do you? :) This is just your opinion and that's fine. But like I said: save your opinions for yourself and as editor, maintain a more balanced approach on Albanian nationalism. It is natural that you may be more interested to a certain POV, but, no matter how well sourced this POV is, the articles in Wikipedia need to be balanced and neutral. Something you already know, don't you?

And please leave religious names such as Fatmir and Kristo aside, ok? By no means you can link religious names with the Albanian nationalism, names that are borrowed from the people's own faith. To claim such a thing is POV and such views have no place in Wikipedia. All religions must be respected. If I find claims about religious names such as Fatmir or Kristo being "foreign" in the article, I will revert them immediately. I am sorry but bias against religion has no place here. (and btw, if you really haven't encountered the name Kristo among Albanians in Albania before the communist era in your sources, then perhaps consider reading a book or two about Christianity in Albania for once. And update your arsenal of sources. Now if you excuse me, I got better things to do. Have a good day. :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 14:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

This article is balanced as sentences are based on peer reviewed material that deal with Albanian nationalism one way or another. And there is plenty and i added it. If your in any doubt that there might be issues consult the specific page/s. I made sure to account for this data source by source, page by page and if need be inline by inline. We are in talkpage and i choose to elaborate on them my way. In the end Enver made people change their names to serve his nationalism. Will look into your suggestion if there is something there. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:50, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Coming massively late to this, but it's important to note that in addition to Mother Teresa's image indeed being used widely by Albanian nationalists as a point of national pride, her father Nikollë Bojaxhiu was in fact an Albanian nationalist activist. --Yalens (talk) 17:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Party for Justice, Integration and Unity

it came to my notice that the Party for Justice, Integration and Unity is not even mentioned once in the article, even though this party is clearly nationalist and part of the Albanian nationalism. How comes? -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

If you have a credible source on it, then that's fine. The sources added did not note the PDIU.Resnjari (talk) 01:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

A quick search reveals that the most common epithet for PDIU is "nationalist" [[1]]. Quite usual for an irredentist organization.Alexikoua (talk) 23:01, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Done, also found another source which elaborates on their party platform within the context of being classified as nationalist [2]. Added both.Resnjari (talk) 05:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I am very surprised that a nationalist party which demands Greek territories and properties to be gifted to Albania, accuses Greece for committing genocides, and urges Greece to pay 10 billion Euros of WWII war reparations to the former Nazi Chams, is not mentioned even once in the present article.

What surprises me more is how this article mentions nothing of the Prime Minister Edi Rama's nationalist claims too. Just I have in front of me Rama's recent claims that the tallest mountain of Greece, Mount Olympus in Thessalia, as well as the Dodona Oracle, are both "part of Chameria". -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I am not familiar with those comments. Provide the sources so they can looked at first.Resnjari (talk) 05:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Sure, I have sources reporting that the nationalist Cham Albanians accused Greece of Genocide and demand reparations in the form of land and money, and also, that their associations turned to the International Criminal Court of Hague against Greece, accusing her for Genocides in WWII (the filling at the Hague Criminal Court happened a long time ago, but it looks like it was turned down by the Court itself as the case didn't seem to have progressed). But I bet, when you are saying that "you are not familiar with those comments", you mean the Edi Rama comments, not the Genocide claims by Chams, right? Because I am very sure you are already very familiar with the Cham nationalism, given our past cooperation on Cham-related articles.

The high-ranking Albanian comments/claims on Mount Olympus and the Ancient Greek religion were made specifically by the Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama, in a party gathering organized by PDIU, where PM Rama was invited by PDIU party leader Shpëtim Idrizi to make a speech at 4th June 2016. In there, he declared that the King of the Gods in ancient Greek Mythology, Zeus, is an Albanian, and Mount Olympus has its roots in Chameria: [3][4]

These statements by PM Edi Rama happenede only one day prior to the official visit of the Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias to Albania in 5th June 2016, and they caused the strong reaction of the Greek side, with the Foreign Ministry in Athens condemning them: [5]

If my memory does not fail me, the nationalist incidents sadly did not begin one year ago. In fact, I just got in my hands on an incident 5 years ago, where the former Ambassador of Albania to Athens, Qazim Tepshi, declared that the Twelve Gods of the ancient Greek religion, (who according to the mythology, resided in Mount Olympus), "spoke the Albanian Language", and also, according to him, there were Genocides against Albanians by Greeks in the following regions: Macedonia (Greece), Peloponnese and Attica: [6]. Another case of Albanian nationalism.

I believe these incidents are noteworthy and should be mentioned on the article, not just because Albanian nationalism is promoted even nowadays, but because it is promoted in the highest political level possible in the Albanosphere - both by high-ranking Albanian Government officials such as the Prime Minister and diplomats such as the Albanian Ambassadors to other countries. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:11, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

The article already cites that Albanian nationalism claims Greek deities and so on with sources referring to the matter within the context of Albanian nationalism. This article is not about a speech by speech thing. You can place some of that stuff in articles about those people about them saying that in a controversies section (or creating one if it does not exist). Your sources also don't say something about nationalism, only that those things were said with a stern rebuke from Greece. Saying they are nationalism is on the OR side of things unless scholarship has done so (i.e like with Berisha's comments on the centenary of independence). The two scholarship sources on the PDIU within the wiki article also include the term "nationalist" within the wider context of discussing the party. Otherwise one can place a multitude of sources on the PDIU. All sources used in this article either refer to Albanian nationalism/nationalists outright in a particular sentence/s-paragraphs on which article sentences are based or within works that deal with Albanian nationalism and made clear by the scholar in the intro or a subsection of their work that this pertains to Albanian nationalism. Otherwise i can place heaps more on the national awakening period etc etc which would be OR. On your thing, there are many articles about Greek politicians saying things about "northern Epirus" and "reclaiming parts of Turkey" that could fill up the currently very sparse Greek nationalism article if we go down that road. This wiki article does also cite that Albanian nationalism is promoted by the government in relation to Christian figures of Skanderbeg and Mother Teresa and attacking Muslim heritage in the process. The Albanian government does not support all things included in what has become Albanian nationalism and has been selective about it regarding its contemporary version of "nation-building" and to promote a "pro-European" orientation.Resnjari (talk) 10:39, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

SR has a good point about PDIU: it's also a party that always joins one of the two major political coalitions in Albania. I fail to see something similar in Greek politics with the G.D.. I also fail to see where the Greek prime minister saluted an irrendetist map like a P.M. of another country did [[7]]. Irredist concepts are usually popular among isolated groups, but in some countries they become part of official politics (for internal consumption etc.) that's the case about this article.Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

On the PDIU, as i noted those sources are OR and why they are OR. Sometime back as i recall you noted to me about the northern Epirus article regarding sources not including the word "northern Epirus" and hence not applicable to the article. Or i take it circumstances change on a article by article basis. On Greek politics there are plenty of examples over time such as those who go to celebrations regarding Northern Epirus and Pontian commemoration ceremonies which have irredentist connotations, with "maps" in the foreground etc etc with some participants talking about reclaiming certain lands. Just like Greek and Serbian media who keeps track, so does Albanian and Turkish media too. Also your source states that Edi saluted some Albanians with a map. Greek politicians in Albania have fratenised with Golden members and there are pictures of those like that of Panajot Barka. Would you say then that those would warrant inclusion in the Greek nationalism article without it saying something about nationalism ? I mean we go down that road then there is a lot on both sides.Resnjari (talk) 12:11, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources not including Northern Epirus but are about Southern Albania, does not mean that the article Southern Albania is irrelevant, do you know that, right? Like how sources not including Pontus but are about the Black Sea region in northern Turkey. Your pretention of not understanding the difference is not convincing. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari, you are wrong. The article mentions of Albanian claims to Ancient Greek deities through Illyrians (which the Albanians claim to originate from). But in Edi Rama's speech, there is no mention of Illyria or the Illyrians and he rather lays a direct claim to ancient Greek deities. This direct claim however, as far as I can see, is not mentioned in the article yet. I am afraid these are two totally different cases. But thing here is, the one is noted, the other is not. Don't you think this should be noted? Of course it should.

Your argument about politicians claiming territories of other countries, this is irrelevant. Such politicians exist anywhere. In every country. Even in Albania, even in Greece, even in Turkey, even in Serbia, even in the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Anywhere. Thing is, my dear Prespari, these politicians are not representing their governments. They are not the Heads of Governments and PM Edi Rama's case is not even comparable to them. For example, there are Greeks, Albanians and Turks politicians who claim parts of Turkey and Albania and Greece, but they are nothing more than just that. Like you said: Wikipedia is not about speech here, and Wikipedia is not obliged to give them the spotlight they seek. Most of them don't even fill the criteria for Wikipedia:Notability. On the other hand, the very head of the Albanian Government, the Prime Minister of the Republic of Albania, mr. Edi Rama, who represents the 3 million Albanians on international level, promotes nationalism. We don't talk about a whatever politician, but the Head of the Government itself. Don't you think this should be mentioned? Edi Rama's statements, given to his high-ranking position, even causes diplomatic spats with neighboring countries, particularly Greece, and has drawn condemnation at the highest level. Don't you think it is worth mentioning this? Like how the same could also be done if, lets say, the Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has, as the Head of the Greek Government, claimed Northern Epirus. If Greek PM Alexis Tsipras ever revived the now dead concept of Megali Idea and claimed parts of Albania, don't you think this should have been noted in the relevant articles? Of course it should.

And no, I am sorry to disappoint you my dear friend, but sources do not have to come solely from scholars. A good part of the citations in Wikipedia, come from newspapers and the media, not from Scholarship. For example, see the article about the European migrant crisis or the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt. Scholarly fieldwork, may take some time, but certainly Wikipedia can cite different sources. Now, the journalists are reporting on nationalist incidents by the head of Albanian government, and this is very relevant to Albanian nationalism. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Please, i am not your friend or a dear to you. A few clarifications, Rama does not represent 3 million, but much less Albanians as the number has decreased. Another claim by you which is POV is that Turkish politicians claim Albania. Seriously where did you get that from? Talk about OR. If your so insistent about it, a sentence on comments by Rama can be included but this article is not about Rama overall but Albanian nationalism. Come up with something. If you want to include his comments in depth like i said there are pages on him. As for the Greek government, Tspiras' defense minister the rightwing Panos Kammenos ordered military exercises and made some threatening comments about going to war with Albania in recent times (as he is in the government i take he is representing the official view of Tsipras ?).Resnjari (talk) 12:24, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I am writing something now as i read through those sources, so time also to prepare the citations as well.Resnjari (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

What nonsense. Since when I said "Turks Claim the Territory of Albania"? I should clarify the above comment "Greeks, Albanians and Turks politicians who claim parts of Turkey and Albania and Greece": I mean Greeks claiming Albanian territories, Albanians claiming Grek, Turks claiming Greek and Greeks claiming Turkish. But speaking of that, now that I recall it, Turks are dreaming the revival of the Ottoman Empire - it couldn't be a surprise if soon they lay claims on Albania as well :)

You are comparing the Prime Minister of Albania who claimed something from Greece, with the Greek Defence Minister who didn't claim anything from Albania? Are you kidding me now? Since when did Kammenos's response to Edi Rama's Cham comments is perceived as threat to Albania? Since when the Greek military exercises on the borders (which are nothing new) has in all of sudden to do with Albania's integrity? So it is fine when Greece makes exercises near Turkey and Bulgaria, but not fine when Greece exercises near Albania? Nonsense. Like how Albania's army is allowed to do whatever they like in the Albanian territory, you should expect the same right for the armies of neighboring countries. Frankly, I don't see the Republic of Macedonia perceiving as threat the gathering of the Albanian Army's Cobra Team near the Albanian-Macedonian border despite the recent tensions between the two countries. Please stick to the article's subject. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Well aside from fantasies about Turkish "irredentism" toward Albania, Turkey is not reviving the Ottoman state even though some lamenting direhards may wish for its revival some way or another. Albanian nationalism pushed the Turks toward becoming Turk orientated early on (as is cited in this article) whether for worse or other and shattering Muslim unity and the concept of the Ummah. Albania maintains sovereignty over its southern reaches due to close relations Albania has with Turkey. i.e: see Albania-Turkey relations. Panos belongs to a party who has made comments about redeeming "northern Epirus". Greeks may be wary of Edi, and the Albanian side is wary of Panos. In the end nationalism is nationalism.Resnjari (talk) 13:09, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I can't make sense with you. First, you have stated that "Tspiras' defense minister the rightwing Panos Kammenos ordered military exercises and made some threatening comments about going to war with Albania in recent times" but that is very different from "Panos belongs to a party who has made comments about redeeming northern Epirus". Please. Please. Did Kammenos threaten Albania's integrity or sovereignty during his term as Defense Minister? I looked anywhere on internet and couldn't confirm any Kammenos remarks about Northern Epirus during his term at the Greek Defense Ministry at all. That his party is nationalist, none disputes it. The position of nationalist parties is recorded: from PDIU and Red-Black Alliance in Albania, to Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn in Greece, to MHP and the Grey Wolves in Turkey, but this does not change or reduces the official claims by the Prime Minister of the Republic of Albania to ancient Greek deities: The Albanian Prime Minister made official statements during his term as Head of the Albanian Government, in which he claims directly something from a neighboring country. That there is nationalism in every country by no means reduces the significance of the Prime Minister's nationalist remarks. Period.

The Republic of Albania in the highest possible level and via its Prime Ministers is lately expressing nationalist remarks which are part of the Albanian nationalism. But to mind about mentioning the nationalist remarks of PM Edi Rama where he claims the ancient religion of the Greeks, but not mind about the nationalist remarks of PM Sali Berisha where he claims the territory of Greece, sounds like double standards to me and an actual case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:33, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Most Albanians don't give a stuff about Greek deities unless they are from the Orthodox Albanian community or some minority of southerners (as De Rapper has noted regarding Pelasgians and its absurd popularity). Rama is of Orthodox heritage and many from the Albanian Orthodox blur the lines (i.e Northern Epirot) of whether they want to be Albanian or Greek or both post 1992. With that brings all this overlap and wierdness. Its why there is this constant Pelasgian stuff floating around the Albanian world and Hellenism clothed in Albanianism. The thing here is that most Albanians are NOT aware of the processes of how they got to this stage. Few would be able to say that the Rilindja "patriots" created myths and fabrications even though many of them lived under Enver's violent enforcement of such patterns of nation building. For this idiocy to stop, things must be confronted and understood. Knowledge frees a person from such bondage. So much for what constitutes for Albanian nationalism is Greek stuff while real Albanian socio-cultural heritage that shaped people that want to be Albanian is sidelined because a few elites have dictated to the population their fantasies of wanting to be Pelasgian or something and said the rest is "non-European" (whatever that hooey means).Resnjari (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Defending some basic rights of the Greek population in Albania is far from being considered irrendetism or nationalism. On the othern hand saluting maps of irrendentist projects is something that this article needs to have.Alexikoua (talk) 15:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, sure "defending". One could make the counter arguments that Rama is "defending" too. There are many articles to the contrary about comments from the Greek side not to mention scholarship sources about Greek irredentism and nationalism toward Albania under such pretexts from WW2 onward. Its because of this that Albania has reached out to Turkey in a firm alliance to safeguard its sovereignty (that is also accounted for in scholarship in case there are views that it is POV).Resnjari (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

That is true. If you compare Panos Kammenos's Independent Greeks (IG) with Shpëtim Idrizi's Party for Justice, Integration and Unity (PDIU), you can see some clear differences here. The IG are a National-Conservative party while the PDIU is Nationalist. Seems like I was wrong to place IG in the same equation with PDIU in the first place.

The PDIU is also a conservative party, they oppose gay marriage in Albania for instance. Two sides of the same coin, just different languages, religions etc.Resnjari (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Too focus on one issue

The lede focuses too much on the importance Albanian nationalists give to theories concerning ancient people (Pelasgians, Etruscans and so on). This is mentioned twice in the lede. The Albanian nationalism does not deal in the origin issue only. It is a group of ideas which were created by Albanian nationalists or are related to them and their position on different issues. One or two short sentences on ancient people issues are enough. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:41, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 26 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: MOVED.(non-admin closure) Recent move was made that turned out to be controversial, so it should be reverted back to "Albanian nationalism" in any case. However, it seems that there is consensus to make this into the main article on Albanian nationalism with sub articles for Kosovo and Macedonia. This work has already been done by Resnjari and seems to have been accepted without issue. — InsertCleverPhraseHere 06:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

---

Albanian nationalism in Albania → Albanian nationalism – This is the main article for Albanian nationalism. Charles Essie (talk) 22:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. Two additional articles on Albanian nationalism now exist that is specific to their particular geographic localities, histories and conceptual ideas etc. One in Kosovo and the other in Macedonia: (Albanian nationalism in Kosovo, Albanian nationalism in the Republic of Macedonia). This article contains information that relates to Albania only, not Kosovo or Macedonia. There are also other precedents on Wikipedia that have nationalism articles for a specific locality, i.e Greek Cypriot nationalism, Kurdish nationalism in Iran that diverges from the main or other articles on the subject of nationalism. Albanian nationalism, apart from the event of the Prizren League that affected Kosovo and Macedonia developed mainly in Albania (late 19th-early 20th century), as its proponents and conceptual ideologues were born in what became Albania in 1912 and why this article on Albanian nationalism has more on ideas and concepts that emerged (mostly done in Albania by people born there influenced by diasporas and wider world etc).Resnjari (talk) 07:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

There is no precedent for this. Separate articles exist for Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and the Republic of Macedonia because they're not currently part of the Albanian state. We don't have articles titled "German nationalism in Germany" or "Greek nationalism in Greece" because that would completely redundant. Instead, we have main articles for German and Greek nationalism (and Kurdish nationalism by the way). Charles Essie (talk) 13:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Most nationalism pages focus on the nationalism of a particular country as the bulk of a particular or titular ethnic group is based in that state, not needing additional clarification in the title of the article. With Albanians a large portion of them are found in other places and developed different forms of Albanian nationalism. By having this article be a generic Albanian nationalism one, it opens the way for content relating to Kosovo and Macedonia to be included here. Before it was sort of like that, with it being muddled up, with poor referencing and large POVish results. Wikipedia only allows for a maxim of 10, 000 words in a article. There is a lot of content on this subject and why there are three articles now instead of one. Having "in Albania" clarifies this issue beyond doubt for a editor and prevents repetition or POV related issues. Also Albanians have two states, not one. Kosovo is 90% Albanian in population.Resnjari (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Many nationalist ideologies span more then one state. But you still need a main article for the ideology as whole. That's how Wikipedia has always done it. Charles Essie (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

If you want to summarize this article and the other two into a article that encompasses Albanian nationalism as a whole by all means. The hard work in locating sources has been done. For now this article is best suited for the way it is otherwise its back to the nightmarish days of POV this and POV that (have a look at the history revision page of some years ago). Its one of the reasons why i did the split.Resnjari (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I have no problem with the split, but having a separate page for Albanian nationalism only in Albania is unnecessary because it in itself is not distinct enough for a separate article. Only Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and the Republic of Macedonia warrant separate articles because they're major political issues that have profound implications, not just for the Balkans, but for the whole of Europe. Besides, this page already works as an all-encompassing article for Albanian nationalist ideology by itself. You wouldn't need to change anything other than the title. Charles Essie (talk) 00:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The same case can be made about Albanian nationalism in Kosovo or Macedonia not being that distinct and not needing separate articles. Albanian nationalism in Albania deserves its own article because it too is part of the political and especially geopolitical issues revolving the region (if one even encompasses recent events in the Balkans). It alos developed its own set of ideas and had a different history when compared to its Albanian nationalism counterparts. I understand from where your coming from. However changing the title will make it go back to being POVish centric article full of problems, poor referencing and complications. If you want to create a all encompassing article for Albanian nationalism, there now exists three articles and you can summarize them into one if you have the time to do so. When i did the major renovation of this article and the byproduct of that process being the creation of the other two, i swung wide the scholarship net through google books and scholar using my university's electronic database and library to double check and make much needed additions of most sources that deal with Albanian nationalism (i may have missed something and other editors can add if they come across something). There is too much scholarship out there and having three articles solves the issue of being informative, without having POV issues. This article contains information on Albania. If you remove the "in Albania" bit it opens the door to where we were before as editors will say that the articles focuses on Albania too much removing content and creating a nightmarish mess.Resnjari (talk) 06:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree, per nom.. "Albanian nationalism" without geographic limitation is obviously the core article. I also won't object a general cleanup to bring the article to its former & more neutral version.Alexikoua (talk) 10:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

"Neutral", yeah right.Resnjari (talk) 10:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, taking also into account that a core article, i.e. "Albanian nationalism", has vanished from wikipedia while more geographically specific ones exist there is no doubt that some kind of disruption is ongoing.Alexikoua (talk) 10:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

You must have misunderstood me, it was in reference to your comment. Also the core article has "not vanished", but those parts moved to the other articles where relevant. What surprises me is for those wanting to have an all encompassing article on Albanian nationalism, all one has to do is create it and copy and paste content from here and the other two articles. The research has been done. Copying, pasting and condensing should not be an issue for long time experienced editors such as yourself. All one needs to do here is remove Albanian nationalism from this article's page redirect for the all encompassing article on Albanian nationalism to be made with that name. Anyway a comparison of how this article was prior to my input was like this [8] and since i have been editing it mainly until 23 April is how it is now [9]. A few more recent additions have been made by other editors from time onward if one looks at the history revision of this article giving its current form. As i have now repeatedly noted Albanian nationalism in Albania is different in history, ideas and other issues and with the others only sharing a few interlinking ideas. When you talk of neutrality, i ask which sources are an issue (as you do not specify and are vague) and are you saying to go back to a time when the article had dodgy referencing (and that is putting it politely -checked every page to make sure things were right and boy was there a lot of dodgy stuff). Then there was unsourced original research. Even in recent times, to use one of your recent edits as an exmaple of what i am referring to was plagiarising content outright [[10]] and even had the wrong page number of which i had to locate the source and then clean up [11], [12]. So i am guessing this is the kind of editing and neutrality your referring to from times past? To the administrators who will make a decision on this matter my edits have been to address those types of short comings. Having something detailed does not cause harm as Wikipedia is a different kind of encyclopedia that has topics that are not restrictive.Resnjari (talk) 20:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support - per common sense. The article is about nationalism of one ethnic group. It is related to the group, not to the country.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:36, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The "group" has developed their own versions of Albanian nationalism, according to country/geography and the histories that led to that are overwhelmingly different.Resnjari (talk) 07:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, propose compromise - there's clear precedent for separate treatment of Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and (FYRo)Macedonia in German nationalism in Austria, and there is a lot of good material here about the separate development and local conditioning of Albanian nationalism in both entities that might not fit well into a unified page. It would be a real shame if we had to lose all that good writing, but it would make a unified page way, way too long. Indeed, when the page was unified, it was bizarre to see largely sections about issues that were largely restricted, mainly to Kosovo (i.e. "Dardanian" claims, claims that Orthodox churches were once (Alb.) Catholic churches, etc). As for Albanian nationalism in Albania, I'm more undecided-- there isn't really a precedent for that and admittedly the name just sounds redundant if you don't immediately pick up that it's in contrast to that in Kosovo and (FYRo)Macedonia, but on the other hand there are clearly trends that only apply to Albania itself, most of all the results of Hoxha's rule. One possible compromise might be to turn that page into the central "Albanian nationalism" page, and for Albania-specific trends, note that there is a difference from Kosovo and Mac there?--Yalens (talk) 07:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

German nationalism in Austria is not "clear precedent for separate treatment of Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and (FYRo)Macedonia " because it is a political concept, ideology and historical current in Austrian politics differentiated from Austrian nationalism. In case of Albanian nationalism there is no such thing as Kosovar nationalism or Iliridan nationalism, so no need for separate article about Albanian nationalism for every political entity on the Balkans.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The scholarship actually gives much details about Albanian nationalisms being different. No source ever mentioned Kosovar or Iliridan (?) nationalism. Ilirida as a concept only applies to Albanians in Macedonia, the thing about Dardanians with Kosovo Albanians and the new obsession over Pelasgians with Albanians from Albania. That's just one example of divergences of ideas by geography. Apart from Illyrian-Albanian continuity ideas and geographical unification concepts, i.e Greater or Ethnic Albania and the experience of the League of Prizren, after 1912 it starts to diverge. The history aspect especially. I am still not convinced why there should not be a separate article for Albanian nationalism in Albania considering that there is heaps of peer reviewed scholarship (of which i used). Anyway Wikipedia has guidelines on when articles get big to split them if there is enough information to do so (WP:SPLIT). Some topics are too big to be covered in one article such as Christianity for example which has multiple pages on the history part going by time period and other topics on concepts etc. Here for this i have gone by country. If one was to take what your saying then a case could also be made that all nationalism articles are part of the ideology of nationalism, so all the other articles on ethnic nationalism should be done away with and info condensed into one article. Like i said, there are 3 articles, and experienced editors like you can devote time to condensing bits and pieces into one article if you want through a copy, paste and condensing exercise. Other wikiprojects on English Wikipedia regarding nationalism have created their own article types to fit their circumstances like the Kurds.Resnjari (talk) 11:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

It would be difficult to place it all in one page and to alleviate problem issues of space (and the amount of scholarship) i created the other two pages. A compromise would be to have a separate Albanian nationalism page where contents from here and the other two can be added and condensed for those editors who want having one article. I don't see why there is an issue with having an Albanian nationalism page that is unique to Albania only (its also clears up the previous POV). Clearly as the peer reviewed scholarship shows (and plenty of it), they differ according to multiple factors (history, geography and even in conceptual ideas). With other ethnicities that are split across borders, pages on their nationalism/s exist: Kurdish nationalism has three pages to date: Early Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish nationalism in Iran. They created their own precedents there to fit that English wikiproject's circumstances. Same with the German case. Arab nationalism also has Arab nationalism in modern Palestine. Those wikiprojects are allowed to cater with such articles, so why not here? For me the question is: Why shouldn't there be a page on Albanian nationalism that is unique to Albania?Resnjari (talk) 07:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I was reflecting on your suggestion Yalens, and of the other editors. The title of this page kind of does come out awkward. I went around looking at other wiki pages for some ideas. Instead of having Albanian nationalism in Albania, it can be Albanian nationalism (Albania). Like this it gets rid of the awkward "in" while still denoting its about Albania. Yalens, your thoughts? Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that you eliminated the main page for Albanian nationalism when you moved it to Albanian nationalism in Albania and every nationalist movement needs to have a main page. If you firmly believe that Albanian nationalism in Albania needs its own page than you should've created a separate page for it rather than destroying the main page. With that in mind perhaps the best compromise would be a split. Charles Essie (talk) 16:42, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I thought as i was cleaning this up that it would all fit into one page. In the end it didn't so three pages. To much scholarship. Like i said, the redirects for Albanian nationalism can be removed from here and an article bearing just that name can come into existence. Its not hard to do and it can be filled up. There are 3 articles to draw upon for info. This time around an eye can be kept on how that main article emerges instead of a free for all with POVish writing, poor referencing, original research etc.Resnjari (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Effectively using the Albanian nationalism in Albania page clearly has precedent in the German and Kurdish cases. Changing it to a parenthesis does make it less awkward, less awkward of all is just having Albanian nationalism, which is how we effectively treated the German case, but the parenthesis works fine for me. A split between a more general Albanian nationalism and Albanian nationalism in Albania is in theory agreeable to me, though things could get redundant, depending on how we wend up writing it, I don't know. As for the POV issues that have been brought up by multiple people here, I don't really think any of the possible arrangements is inherently conducive to any POV whatsoever. This may be seen that despite it being primarily non-Albanian (Serbian and Greek) editors protesting the split, the split is in fact probably most offensive to pan-Albanianists who would resent the separate treatment of Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and Macedonia from that in Albania as yet another attempt to "divide" Albanians. All in all, it's possible to insert or remove POV in any of these arrangements, and I have faith that despite long running problems with nationalist editing, we can keep these articles as well as all similar articles in line with NPOV policy with reliable sources that treat nationalism as an object to be discussed rather than a proposition whose merits are to be debated. --Yalens (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree, but on splitting it would be more of borrowing content from all three articles instead of just taking a chunk out of this one. We have the scholarship info now so its more of a condensing exercise than anything if we go with an Albanian nationalism article bearing that name only. About a week it should take for it to be up and running and full. For this article its Albania only. Took to much time to get it the way it is and the other two right. Very few if at all on the other nationalism pages of other ethnic groups are this comprehensive and detailed.Resnjari (talk) 18:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

^That's very much true. As far as nationalism pages go, these have become some of the most comprehensive, and it would be a real shame if we had to lose that to any condensation. I doubt anyone could disagree on that point. --Yalens (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I know yeah. We are spoiled for choice here. It will be kind of a reverse thing, condensation on making a new page. lol! Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Update: Working on condensing three articles into one. Big task. Fingers crossed and i hope to be done toward the end of the week. Best everybody.Resnjari (talk) 10:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - because in most parts the article describes cases in Albania or for Albanians of Albania. So it would be better to create another and more general article on "Albanian nationalism".Liridon (talk) 17:44, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - The request has no basis. The article speaks about nationalism in Albania, there is just a part in the end of article that mentions Greater Albania, as a core concept of contemporary Albanian nationalism (a tiny part if we compare it with the overall article). That part of article gives information on the opinion of contemporary citizens and politicians of Albania about Greater Albania and its importance in the country (politics, influence on voters). The views on Greater Albania and its importance in other Albanian inhabited lands (Kosovo, Macedonia and so on) are not present in article. The article, from the first to the last sentence is only about the origins, evolution, history and contemporary importance of Albanian nationalism in Albania and as such there is no logical reason to have this article named "Albanian nationalism". An "Albanian nationalism" article should give space to Albanian nationalism not only in the society of Albania but to all its forms and aspects. The lack of a precedent is not an argument. The Kurdish nationalism has its own specifics compared to nationalism of other ethnic groups, and per that reason the Kurdish nationalism has already set its own precedent (Kurdish nationalism has three articles dedicated to it: Early Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish nationalism in Iran). The German nationalism has its own specifics compared to nationalism of other ethnic groups. This is the reason why German nationalism has set its precedent and there are two articles dedicated to it as already noted earlier in discussion. Nobody here can deny the Albanian nationalism has its own specifics compared to nationalism of other ethnic groups. So it is the quite understandable why Albanian nationalism has set its own precedent (that should be used as a good example for nationalism articles of some other ethnic groups). The possibility of creation of an "Albanian nationalism" should be discussed in another section. The idea is good in the first look. The thing is that if one thinks about it in depth, there are many problems that would eventually appear in the future. The new article would be just a copy paste of parts of the actual articles, there would be a very high probability of disagreements in the future about which parts should be present in the general article and which not. Disruptive editors would be interested to give more weight in aspects of Albanian nationalism they think make Albanians look like "the good" or "the bad" people of the Balkans. The article to which this talk page belongs was a mess and an accumulation of WP:UNDUE until some time ago. The reason was the presence of different forms of Albanian nationalism (that in Albania of Ottoman period, communist period, Kosovo, Macedonia) in just one article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support. This is reversing a recent undiscussed move 20:35, 23 April 2017‎ Resnjari (talk | contribs | block)‎ . . (62 bytes) (+62)‎ . . (Resnjari moved page Albanian nationalism to Albanian nationalism in Albania: Two addtional articles on Albanian nationalism now exist regarding Kosovo and Rep. of Macedonia.Content of this article based on Albania, tittle should reflect that in...) that turns out to be controversial. See also #Discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 02:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the move is controversial and was done according to WP:BRD. Reverting the article to its previous state means that it will be a article containing POVish writing, original research and poor referencing. It may suit certain editors who were part of that endevour producing that kind of work or whatever reasons. Anyway, I have almost finished condensing things. Patience. Others on Wikipedia get time, yet here its all quick this and quick that. Patience has better outcomes.Resnjari (talk) 13:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support, the nationalisms in R. Macedonia and Kosovo could be summarized into sections at this main article.--Zoupan 06:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I have almost finished the article that contains sections of all articles. Patience. It is a delicate task.Resnjari (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

There is a suggestion above that we need an overview article as well as one specific to Albania. In that case, the overview article at Albanian nationalism should be this one, to retain its history, and a new article Albanian nationalism in Albania created to go alongside Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and Albanian nationalism in the Republic of Macedonia.

And unless and until that is written, this article should in any case be back at its previous name. Andrewa (talk) 02:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Its almost done. Patience everyone, patience.Resnjari (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - There is no need for new articles about Albanian nationalism in Albania and Albanian nationalism in Kosovo and Albanian nationalism in the Republic of Macedonia. Wikipedia has one article per topic. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

If that is the case then why does Wikipedia cater for certain topics with multiple articles instead of one? A prominent example is Christianity. There are topics by time period and not to mention on may of its concepts. Even on issues of nationalism other Wikipedia projects have catered to their needs with multiple articles. No one said they cannot have those articles. I thought the parameter was if there is enough content from credible sources to warrant separate articles. Anyway i am almost done and these issues should be addressed soon.Resnjari (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Technical edits

Andrewa, Charles Essie i created a separate article on Albania transferring contents from here as Andrewa said to keep the history talkpage stuff here. I condensed all three articles into this and i hope this is what you both had in mind. It was a very hard undertaking. This article can revert to its original name of just Albanian nationalism. i tried fixing redirects and they still give me the sh*ts, though once done, what will become a redirect Albanian nationalism in Albania would need to be deleted along with another redirect that exits for this page called Nationalism in Albania [13]. Those two redirects will be for the Albanian nationalism (Albania) article. Best guys.Resnjari (talk) 22:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Byku

Byku's works had a certain impact in the Albanian renaissance & Albanian nationalism. He claimed that Greeks and Albanians had common ancestors, shared common enemies. Obviously much more important than third-class papers of the 20th century (Kollias etc.) that recycled some of his ideas.Alexikoua (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes his ideas did enter the Albanian national awakening. I haven't seen anything about him being the guy impacting Albanian nationalism nor does your source say that for either the awakening or nationalism (so your addition to this article is wp:synthesis), one that is about the Megali Idea. Still shouldn't you make that edit to the Anastas Byku article?Resnjari (talk) 14:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Byku offered an image about the historical background of the Albanian nation in his work (Albanians being a Greek tribe, similar to Kolias recycled theory one century later) this doesn't exclude him among the authors of the specific subject, i.e. Albanian nationalism.Alexikoua (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

All i see there is wp:OR. All good for a discussion, but to add to the article is another thing. Again the article pagename is Albanian Nationalism. Does your source place Byku and Alb nationalism in combination or does it just cite Byku and his personal views about Pelasgians and Albanians. If its the latter your edit does not belong here but on the Anastas Byku page.Resnjari (talk) 15:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I can swallow up the Byku thing into the upcoming page History of Albanian nationalism -- probs better belongs there than about the modern nationalism, esp as a lot of his ideas are now out of favor. Still his ideas about brotherhood between Greeks and Albanians were also seen from Frasheri etc, back in the time before Greece invaded newly independent Albania and was seen as a potential ally against Slavic expansion-- so better on a History of page where we can go more indepth. But for this page influence on the modern ideology is a better criterion--Calthinus (talk) 15:34, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

A history of Albanian nationalism would be repetition of this whole article. There are already 3 additional articles which allow for treating the subject on a regional basis and this is a condensation of those. This is the main one outlining the whole thing. On Byku unless Aleixoua's source say Byku and nationalism in the same context, no wp:synthesis of additions because something might feel right for a editor. Otherwise anything goes.Resnjari (talk) 15:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari Fair -- I was gonna make a history page because there are things to add that would make that part of this page very big and the goal is not to take over this page (i.e. are notable dynamics about the interaction with say Bulgarian nationalism relevant to the modern movement, or the role of the printing press or the state of roads between certain cities leading to them being or not being nationalist publication centers? Probs not for this page. Historically yes.). But I suppose this can be discussed at a different time and place, since such a page will not be created any time in the immediate future.--Calthinus (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Calthinus, there are those Bulgarian influences (but they are small in terms of ideas and only exit here or there when i guerilla band cooperated here or there or an exile published from Sofia). Its why id didn't cite that for this article but have cited those things for individual people's bios where relevant. Anyway work out what those sources are. I cast the net very wide for this article in terms of books and journal articles at my disposal and went far and wide to get others. You removed a section that kind of discusses the Pelasgian thing as well, which may be a factor with current editor now wanting to add something to compensate while there is a void. I don't know what made it undue (as its based on the sources that refer to Albanian nationalism and those things) but i look forward to constructively work with you to address any concerns you have about that section.Resnjari (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I did. Imo it could be read to (absurdly) imply that Orthodox Albanians in Albania have some sort of Pelasgian-Greek identity (Arvanites are assimilated to Greek identity, not really relevant in modern times). This is because it discussed now obselete ideas that fell out of favor ages ago in actual Albania among Christians, but the page doesn't mention this explicitly. This was a historical thing, some Muslims had this identity too (I mean, Frasheri had his whole Epirote thing too...), meanwhile it singled out Orthos while leaving unmentioned other challenges to Albanian nationalist identity that existed on a religious basis (namely, confessional loyalty to the Caliphate). It is better handled on a page that can examine the issue in depth (History of could work, also Religious harmony in Albania can be created as it arose out of a need to unify different faiths for these very reasons), or a more balanced version here -- but the latter is hard because of space.--Calthinus (talk) 16:04, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The Geopolitical consequences and legacy covers Muslims and Catholics although a sentence on the caliphate thing would go well. But the source would have to mention both Albanian nationalism and Ottoman caliphate for it to be of use for the article. On the orthodox maybe having that bit as a separate section was the issue (it was created to better navigate the article). Moving some sentences around may alleviate the matter. I got to have think about it and get back to you on ideas.Resnjari (talk) 16:35, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari and Calthinus: Re that issue, I think that we can work it out on a draft on all religious communities so concerns rightly raised by both of you are adressed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:41, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Statuja e Ibrahim Rugovës.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:54, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Caution: Page includes problems - requires a revamp

A detailed review of this page confirms what is a huge problem on many Albanian and Balkan pages: bias resources, outdated information, repetition. It also seems to neglect modern nationalism in the Albanian communities which is far different from much written on the page and plays an important role in Albanian affairs at home and abroad.

This page has a tone of discrediting Albanian nationalism, rather than explaining Albanian nationalism. It is also evident in the use of vocabulary and sources. Please note for every source used, a counter source can be found.

This page requires a revamp and non-emotional driven update. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varvanitis (talk • contribs) 10:03, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Caution - Article is heavily bias against Albanians and Albanian nationalism.

Unlike other Wikipedia articles on nationalisms, this one stands out as quiet bias against Albanians and Albanian nationalism. I agree with the other contributor regarding terminology revamp. When one compares this article to other Balkan ethnic nationalisms, many which have extremely negative and extremist histories, it paints Albanian nationalism as malignant despite, in comparison, and as discussed in academia, being extremely benign and weaker in comparison. Albanian nationalism is multifaceted, and some later edits - which I personally thank - highlight the diversity of the concept: e.g. irredentism through to civic nationalism. This is important to any reader interested in this topic. From what we can gather with today's readily available literature on Albanian nationalism, and see on the ground, the concept is far more civic and about unifying a nation and peoples at home and in their diaspora more than 'land grabbing' or creating national myths. I urge all readers to consider expanding on their reading beyond this article until such a time edits can be made that are less bias, fair and reflective of the multifaceted nature of Albanian nationalism through time. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)