Talk:An Excellent Mystery

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Querying the section on the title[edit]

There is a comment in the article that "The author who avoids irony adds a touch of it with this quoteItalic text, as the Book of Common Prayer came after Henry VIII split from the Roman Catholic church that dominated in the 12th Century, the setting of the novel." The quotation in English does indeed derive from the BCP; but the BCP here leans on the Sarum Rite of the Catholic Church in England - that same one which 'dominated' in the 12th century - so perhaps the irony is more that this article seem unaware of that!

The Latin can be found on page 265 of the 14th century Liber pontificalis of Edmund Lacy, Bishop of Exeter, in the edition by Ralph Barnes of Exeter (page 288 in the Internet Archive digitised edition): see https://archive.org/stream/liberpontificali00barnuoft#page/n287/mode/2up

"Deus qui tam excellenti mysterio coniugalem copulam consecrasti, vt Christi & Ecclesiæ sacramentum præsignares in fœdere nuptiarum."

Before amending the article to reflect this, I'm putting this on the talk page for any feedback. David Aldred (talk) 22:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Daldred I added the sources to the section about the title of the book, some time ago. The history of the Book of Common Prayer is explained at that Wikipedia article, linked in this article. The source, the Sarum Rite, which you mention, is also included at that longer article. I would resist adding the Latin phrase to this article, which is all in English, like the novel. The quote in the novel is from the Book of Common Prayer, and not from any 12th century source, nor in Latin. The mention of irony was used only to tie the article written at her death, describing her writing style, to the title. If that offends you, we could discuss that. I guess it is the line crossed in historical fiction, set in an era when the rites were in Latin, but this novel gets its title in English and it was meant to attract 20th century readers. Her book titles often have a twist of humor or irony or punnery (e.g., A Morbid Taste for Bones, about the search for relics, Monk's Hood, about a plant that is either beneficial or poisonous^[1] and named for its appearance like a monk's hood, which hood is also part of the plot}, so this title seems in line with her use of modern English to hint at her story set long ago. My mind is not sharp enough right now to come up with a compromise phrase, one which does not cite the Latin nor go into the history, use, disuse, use again, of the Book of Common Prayer in Protestant England, while mentioning that the marriage rite in Cadfael's time was likely similar, but like all church rites in that era, in Latin. It is enough to know that her source was a specific version of the Book of Common Prayer. --Prairieplant (talk) 08:19, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Prairieplant - perhaps just add the note that the BCP translated directly from the Latin texts of the time? That would perhaps balance the suggestion of irony through anachronism, or any suggestion that the BCP was a novelty. David Aldred (talk) 14:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Cranch, Robbie (January 1993). "Mystery in the Garden: Interview with Ellis Peters". Mother Earth Living. Retrieved 8 November 2017.

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Checked sources in article. --Prairieplant (talk) 07:21, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Cranch, Robbie (January 1993). "Mystery in the Garden: Interview with Ellis Peters". Mother Earth Living. Retrieved 8 November 2017.

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