Talk:Antakalnis Cemetery

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Saulės Cemetery[edit]

What is the English name of the Saulės Cemetery ? In Polish it is "Cmentarz Słoneczny", meaning "Sunny cemetery". --Lysy^talk 21:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

there should be no English name for the non-English cemetery. Let's stick to the official name and not to bother anymore. Iulius 06:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would be interesting to know the origin of the name, though. The cemetery is in the woods on the hill, so it's rather "shadowy" than "sunny" today. But maybe the trees were not there 100 years ago. How old is the official name ? --Lysy^talk 07:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is interesting for me as well, as I even did not know about the existence of such graveyard at all.. Its Lithuanian name is really uncommon for cemetery and sounds strange. I doubt whether it is of any historical significance. Iulius 09:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

besides, there is Saulės Valley in Antakalnis Iulius 10:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An several Polish sources (rather reasonable ones), including the guide by Kłos, actually this cemetery is referred to as "Anatakalnis cemetery", and described in more detail, not the other one, so I assume it is rather significant, historically. --Lysy^talk 10:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i meant the significance of the name Iulius 10:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Maybe the name is rather new, as no older sources seem to mention it other than "St. Paul&Peter parish cemetery" or "Antakalnis cemetery". One hypothesis could be that this cemetery is of rather Polish than Lithuanian tradition and therefore Lithuanian authorities were not very interested in promoting it ? Frankly, if you go there, it seems very nice and historic but rather neglected. Many tombs fall apart. --Lysy^talk 10:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the name is very well recent. Most older Vilnius cemeteries are of Polish tradition more than Lithuanian, so this is not an exception. The fact is that almost all old cemeteries are neglected - that's the sad reality and it has nothing to do with Polish traditions indeed. Iulius 10:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but this could potentially explain why this cemetery was rather prominently mentioned in older sources, but is almost unknown in Vilnius today. I wonder when the "Antakalnis cemetery" name was transferred from the old ("the sunny") cemetery to the new ("the military") one. --Lysy^talk 11:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I might guess that that thing happened around the restoration of independence, and especially after the Lithuanian freedom stuggle victims were buried there. What I have just checked: in the propaganda style Soviet Vilnius guide (in Lithuanian) published in 1965 the cemetery are referred as Soviet Soldiers' and Partisans' Cemetery (which is very biased). Although in the 1977 guide the Antakalnis Cemetery is called simply Vilnius Soldiers' Cemetery with no specific emphasis. In fact, still no Anakalnis Cemetery.

Another hypothesis then: maybe the Saulės name was invented in lack of better name, when the "Antakalnis" name was needed for the former "Vilnius Soldiers' Cemetery". Isn't it located at Saulės street maybe ? --Lysy^talk 13:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of Rhetorical Questions?[edit]

In the above discussion there appears to be a lot of "rhetorical" questions being asked. Specifically, what does that mean [1] and this mean [2] in the Lithuanian language (with a hypothesis offered). Perhaps someone can explain the etymological basis for the Polish term "Antokol", the Polish term for the Lithuanian neighborhood "Antakalnis" which literally means "place on the hill" in Lithuanian. What does "Antokol" mean in Polish? I suspect that this is merely a Polonization of the Lithuanian toponym. If this is the case, I plan to remove "Cmentarz antokolski" from the article lead here at the English Wikipedia article. I think it would be fair to first listen to any arguments that would prevent me from expunging the undue information before I do so. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some Answers To Rhetorical Questions[edit]

"...is almost unknown in Vilnius today...<...>...to first listen to any arguments..."

Well, i live in Antakalnis all my life. Saulės cemetery is almost unknown indeed, to me too. However all those questions seems rather artificial to me, or something. I won't edit the main article, but i'll try to answer those rhetorical questions, so that you'll be able to edit what you decide to be necessary to be edited. First, i don't see any difference between "Polish" and "Lithuanian" in Vilnius region. It is a difference if you are talking about modern times as there is a separate republic of Poland and another separate republic of Lithuania, but prior to that there was either Catholic (Polish) or Pagan (Baltic, Lithuanian in particular). Since Vilnius practically always was a capital (let's temporarily ignore those 100 y of russian rule and 20 y of polish rule, in essence it was always a capital city of Litwa of whatever you want to call this land), so in this respect all those cemeteries are (and are called) lithuanian cemeteries. I.e. specifically catholic cemetaries, not Jewish, not Russian and not Tatar cemeteries. And pagan (baltic) cemetaries are archaeological sites rather than cemeteries. Now regarding the names. All lithuanian names in Vilnius (and in most other) region have their polish equivalents, like Vilnius/Wilno, Antakalnis/Antokol etc. It is exactly like some places have traditional english equivalents, like Warsaw, Munich, Moscow. So i don't know if "Antokol" should be called "polonised name". Lithuanians themselves spoke polish at the time, and for many it was 1st language, called "lithuanian language". I.e. it was polish language, Wilno dialect. There was time when ancient russian tongue was called "lithuanian language" (by lithuanians themselves) as most nobles spoke only russian and most of them spent their lives in the areas settled by russians (still settled by russians). But the roots of all those names are baltic, and all those names have concrete meaning in lithuanian language, and they all have an officiall version of spelling in standard lithuanian. Be it Paneriai/Ponary, Antakalnis/Antokol, Ašmena/Oshmyany, Vilnius/Wilno, Šalčininkai/Soleczniki or others. On the other hand, there are some lithuanised names of some places which had only polish names, like Guriai or Kalnėnai (latter is a litteral translation of lithuanised Guriai), but the cemeteries we're talking about are not a case. So, these both cemeteries are in the "Hilly Area" (Antakalnis). So they are both Antakalnis Cemetery in this respect. And so it is understood today, and so it always was. Since they are 2, not 1, they also have their specific names (nicknames, most of lithuanian toponims are sort of nicknames). So, Soldier's Cemetery is called so because it became a military cemetery. That's all. Soviet official version "Soldiers' and Partisans' Cemetery" is just a regular Soviet version, same like any other name: there was an obligation to add the words "Soviet", "Revolutionary", "Partisan" and such. One could ignore that, but the cenzor's word always was the last word, one should be aware about that too. So "Antakalnis [cemetery]" refers to the location, "Soldier's [cemetery]" specifies the cemetery itself. What questions? :D . "Saulės" cemetery is a clear nickname, same as "Saulės valley", "Saulėtekis valley", or formerly very well known "Bison's valley". Of course, there were less trees, or no trees at all, but the main reason is that when the sun shines thru the clouds, some slopes in Antakalnis are nicely enlightened while others remain in the shadow, making pronounced play of light. There are more nicknames in Antakalnis, such like Switzerland Park (Šveicarijos parkas), Devil's Hill (Velnio kalnas) or New York in Sunrise valley, as opposite to Kamchatka, another part of Sunrise valley. Sun Cemetery is one of such places. And yes, there is a Sun Street (Saulės gatvė), it is on the same slope as the cemetery is. This cemetery is almost unknown because it is small and a closed one. And quite remote. So usually only the "main" cemetery of Antakalnis is refered as "Antakalnis cemetery". It is not closed, it is bigger and it is less remote. Native speaker Lit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Native speaker Lit (talk • contribs) 10:36, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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