Talk:Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why Russian?[edit]

Why is it called "Russian", there are no Russians there and nobody speaks Russian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.165.173.131 (talk) 21:56, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:49, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:29, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Adressing the elephant in the room[edit]

@Axxxion: the AROCWE, i.e. the entity and not simply a few parishes or churches, has joined the Moscow Patriarchate.
I felt I needed to adress this since a long time, but never did until now. Veverve (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Axxxion: I am going to change this article to reflect this reality. Do you agree? Veverve (talk) 14:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Suppose there will be different views here, for a long time. The article probably should reflect this. Good sources supporting both sides should be welcome. --Hjordmån (talk) 10:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with Hjordmån here above. More importantly, it is precisely the opposite of what has been posited by Veverve: the Archdiocese as an entity failed to join the MP, as per the result of the Extraordinary Assembly in Sept 2019.Axxxion (talk) 17:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, it is not for us to judge if the change of jurisdiction was canonical or not; for this, secondary sources are needed. Second, the majority of the AROCWE joined the ROC, and the AROCWE of the Moscow Patriarchate is legally the same as when it was under Constantinople. Lastly, even if the change was not made according to the rules/canon, the change of jurisdiction of the AROCWE as an entity took place anyway. Veverve (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see next to no sense in what is posted right above: we are not discussing "canonicity" here. That the motion to join the MP failed is a plain fact, not disputed by anybody. That the Statute of the Archdiocese defines it as being under the Ecumenical See is also a plain legal fact. All else, is your subjective opinion.Axxxion (talk) 03:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then Archbishop (now Met.) John (Ren.) provided a rationale to justify the change of jurisdiction. The statute of the AROCWE will be changed during the next EGA on 25 January (source). Do you prefer to continue this discussion once this change to their statute is done? Veverve (talk) 12:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Jean′s stance and steps are amply covered by the article as it stands. If you are keen to view the structure he now heads as a self-sufficient ecclesiastical entity (under the MP), perhaps go and create a new article -- precisely and narrowly on that structure (which thus far has no legal basis/registration in France), the way it has been done in the RuWiki: ru:Архиепископия западноевропейских приходов русской традиции . But I fully agree with Hjordmån that this article should not be fundamentally altered for some while, if ever, in fact. BTW, you mentioned the planned EGA on 25 Jan; but I have noticed this: L′AGE aura lieu le samedi 18 janvier 2020, de 10h00 à 12h00, au 7, rue Georges Bizet, 75116 Paris, France: https://uniondiocesaine.blogspot.com/ Things are totally up in the air. We are not in journalism here: waiting for things to settle is the best thing we can do for now.Axxxion (talk) 19:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If the article is reworked - and it really should be, sooner or later, since the current structure is pretty illogical - maybe different sections would be a good idea. Something like
Subheading: Moscow view
Text: The parishes that joined the MP consider themselves identical to the old Archdiocese, that switched jurisdictions as an entity. They explain it like blah blah legal, canonical, blah blah etc.
Subheading: EP view
Text: The EP considers the Archdiocese disbanded, because blah blah. Legal, canonical, blah blah. Archbishop Emmanuel has tried to claim ownership of the cathedral, so far to no avail. The Institue Saint-Serge left the archdiocese's premises already in 2017, due to financial reasons, and does today not display formal ties to any bishop or jurisdiction.
Probably every statement in those sections will need to be sourced, or the other guy will pick it out.
Also, the article needs a subheading focusing on the exarchate, to which words like Paris jurisdiction, Paris exarchate etc. should be redirected. Currently the exarchate is not explained in context when it is first mentioned. Someone who doesn't know the subject will find this article confusing. --Hjordmån (talk) 14:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Axxxion: The 18 January AGE was that ot the Diocese Union under constantinople (source). The AGE which will be taking place tomorrow is the one of the AROCWE under Moscow. Veverve (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the normal Assembly of the AROCWE (Moscow P.) took place today. The EGA of the AROCWE (Moscow P.) followed on the same day (source). Veverve (talk) 18:08, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Axxxion:@Hjordmån:Here is the result for the EGA of the AROCWE (MP). Veverve (talk) 23:09, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do follow the news, and so what? What appears the real problem to me here is your unashamedly biased attitude such is in you saying "the normal Assembly of the AROCWE", which implies that those who do not accept that KGB-run jurisdiction are "abnormal". My opinion is that for the sake of this article being an encyclopedic one (rather than polemic), it should be exactly about the disbanded exarchate. For what exactly will emerge as a result of Moscow′s attempts to drastically expand its espionage base in France, is not clear and is not going to be clear for a long while yet as is clear from the decisions taken at https://orthodoxie.com/communique-du-ca-de-lunion-diocesaine-dans-la-juridiction-du-patriarcat-de-constantinople/ (they pointedly refer to this kgb-run entity as "the diocese of Dubna", a telltale that they reject Jean of Dubna′s claim to legal succession to the Phanar-run Archdiocese). Now, I amnot terribly interested in battles over this largely nonsensical topic written up in more detail than it obviously deserves. The article has already been distorted by a notable editor, an account obviously operated by a group of Russia-affiliated hacks who have already mangled a lot of articles in the Russ Wiki. Thus it is obvious to me that this article has effectively been hijacked by the kremlin-run gang. I just have no desire to waste my private time on fighting with this gang of goons. If France′s relevant agencies see no harm in all that, there is nothing I can do. Pls do not bother me any more on this page.Axxxion (talk) 19:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Archdiocese_of_Russian_Orthodox_Churches_in_Western_Europe&oldid=1205300867"