Talk:Ares

Replace image with ludovisi ares

hi i think the ludovisi ares will work better because it looks better, it's 100% ares, and it has a background, which brings out the image. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 02:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The three images I've seen placed in the infobox recently are:

• 
  from Hadrian's Villa Adriana
• 
  Ludovisi Ares
• 
  Ares Borghese

Statues of Ares were rare and few survive. All three of these are Roman copies of lost Greek originals. The Villa Adriana image serves our infobox "at-a-glance" purposes well; the lower two-thirds of the Ludovisi can't be taken in so quickly and the cluttered background of that image of the Borghese also delays the eye. NebY (talk) 10:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

can i try to remove the detail from the borghese? Ghost_Cacus (talk) 15:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

If you create an alternative version of the Borghese without background detail, we could consider that along with the three above. I don't think I would prefer it; it is not easily identifiable as Ares or otherwise relating to war. NebY (talk) 18:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

what if i replace the current one with the other version, facing the other way with a background? Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Why? The background simply adds noise to the picture, and makes identifying the figure pictured more difficult at a glance. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

it brings out the image Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but we can wait for the perspectives of other editors if you'd like. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

In what way does it bring out the image? NebY (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

it makes it clearer imo. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It is not at all clearer; the background of the Ares Borghese renders one arm particularly indistinct and especially with little contrast between the statue and most of the background, requires the poor viewer to spend time picking out the detail of the statue and rejecting all the surrounding detail. We should not demand that of our readers. It is surprising that you make such claims and expect to be taken seriously. NebY (talk) 22:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

i meant in the other version of the current image. Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Really? All the background does is add clutter to image, which makes identifying the figure in the picture more difficult. The background doesn't seem to have any relevance to the statue, either, so it doesn't add anything of value. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The background is simply a distraction. Paul August ☎ 01:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Siblings in Infobox

@Ghost Cacus: I don't see why we should list a whole set of Zeus's children under the "Siblings" tab in the infobox. The purpose of the infobox is to summarise key information about the article's subject, and a list of a number of Zeus's children, coming from varied sources through history, and by women other than Hera, doesn't qualify. The list given here is far from complete (see Zeus#Children), and a complete list would be ludicrously long. The list given here also contains, for example, such obscure figures such as Angelos (mentioned only by a scholion on Theocritus). Just because other pages have such lists, it doesn't mean that this page should. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:01, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. As Wikipedia's Manual of Style puts it at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, Keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article .... The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Including too many siblings frustrates that purpose. Not only can a long list not be taken in "at a glance" or at all quickly, but the general reader glancing at the start and end of this long list (Aeacus ... the Moirai) discovers only obscurity and irrelevance; it deters closer examination.

Including Hesiodic full siblings seems a workable principle, though I wouldn't have rushed to draw Eileithyia and Hebe to readers' attention. I would include those with whom Ares has sibling interactions in classical mythology - I'm thinking particularly of Athene in Iliad XV, restraining Ares after Zeus has violently threatened his wife and children, but you might think of others. On the other hand, I wouldn't see inclusion in a late lyrical fantasy or list, or some mere metre-fitting "sister of Ares" mention, as indicating we should include someone. I suggest following a truncated list with "and many more". NebY (talk) 09:34, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree completely with all of the above. By the way this illustrates one of the several inherent problems with infoboxes: they provide a convenient coat rack upon which drive-by editors can hang stuff. Paul August ☎ 12:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I think filling in blanks and adding infobox details may also be attractive to new editors eager to contribute to Wikipedia. NebY (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the prominence of the infobox means it's something that a lot of IPs and new editors actually look at, whereas many probably don't read much of the article itself thoroughly. It's just unfortunate how much time gets spent on them, especially in cases where the article itself could really do with some help. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

What about the notable ones like Minos, or Perseus, or Heracles, or Persephone, etc? Ghost_Cacus (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

What is their relevance to Ares? Do they (for example) share cult with him, or have any interaction with him in mythology or drama? NebY (talk) 18:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Keeping the siblings given by Hesiod seemed to be the most obvious solution at the time, though I certainly agree that Eileithyia and Hebe don't bear a whole lot of relevance to Ares (only Hebe is mentioned, briefly, in the article), and have no issue with them not being kept there. I readded Eris as a sibling due to the reference at Iliad 4.440–1, though this is only a "sister of Ares" mention, and, again, is not particularly significant to Ares himself. The addition of a note such as this one seems a sensible way of accounting for the numerous half-siblings not mentioned, though, quite frankly, I would have no opposition to removing the "Siblings" tab altogether, unless what can added there is of relevance and in line with MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I would support any or all of this. Paul August ☎ 11:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the "Siblings" parameter altogether, for now at least. NebY can add back any figures who have specific sibling-related interactions with Ares in mythology (or any of the names in my comment above) if they'd like. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Good move. I'll not add any; on reflection, a relevance rule wouldn't be self-evident enough to be stable, and my idea of including Athene just exemplifies that. It's possible removal won't hold without a note such as <!-- too many to mention -->, or maybe if the current Apollo entry ("Artemis, and many paternal half-siblings") holds we could emulate that, but I'll happily wait and see. NebY (talk) 16:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, as Ghost Cacus pointed out, this is an issue on a number of other pages... – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes Indeed. So, fortunately, there is no lack of articles to improve ;-) Paul August ☎ 11:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

what about here's children with zeus, or by herself? also, why only hesiod? Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

here is the greek name for hera^ Ghost_Cacus (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

What is their relevance to Ares? Do they (for example) share cult with him, or have any interaction with him in mythology or drama? NebY (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

As explained above, WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE states that the infobox is for key facts that appear in the article, and that [t]he less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose. Adding siblings which aren't significant or relevant to Ares goes against this. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)