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About a month ago, I changed Italy's chart placements on the table to Ireland. It was reverted back and I did not have the energy to restore it. I'm starting this talk to re-convene, because I still think that Ireland should be on the table. There are several articles about how Grande has numerous Irish chart records to her name, and her presence there is far more noteworthy than it is in Italy. Ireland is also a bigger market for American artists. It is also on the table for numerous American pop and R&B musicians such as Britney Spears, Taylor Swift, Demi Lovato, Justin Bieber, etc. I'm open to having a conversation about this, thus why I created a talk page for it, but there is no good reason as to why Ireland should not be on the table over Italy.
Earlier, I moved the sales column to before (to the left of) the certifications column in the albums section. This is typically where it's located on discographies—as it seems to logically follow that sales would come before what sales typically result in, which is certifications—and the singles section below also has sales to the left of certifications. I don't think we should have the sales column located to the right of certifications in albums then to the left of certifications in singles, as this makes it inconsistent across the article, and several hours after my edit, an IP editor reverted the location of the column with no explanation. Ss11203:33, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we should maintain consistency, both within the article and with other discography articles, unless there is a (very) good reason to deviate. Aoi (青い) (talk) 04:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Only one editor has noted opposition to this (and has chosen not to participate in this discussion), with two in favor, so I don't see grounds not to make the change. Aoi (青い) (talk) 06:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mirrored7: You claimed, two days after I started this discussion and even after Aoi had agreed with me, that "it should be discussed on the talk page". I did. It's like you didn't even check the talk page of an article you make finicky edits to. There is two against one in regards to the position of the sales column here, so your edit restoring the inconsistent order of this column has been reverted. As @Aoi: has noted, nobody else has objected or chosen to participate in the discussion. Your only argument for keeping certifications first is that Grande is a "streaming artist", but sales coming first left-to-right does not make it more important than certifications. Sales accrue with streams into making certifications. Why we would choose to put sales after certs left-to-right like it's an afterthought is bizarre and inconsistent with its position in other tables on the article. Readers expect, from precedent, to see certifications at the furthest right. Certifications not coming directly right of the last chart position column does not make it somehow less-than sales. Ss11209:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To add to Ss112's points: back in December, I did a spot check of discography articles that have achieved FA status. IIRC (this was several months ago), an overwhelming majority displayed sales before certifications.
I'd also note that placing certifications on the edge of the table would arguably make the certifications more prominent (since it would no longer be buried in the middle). Aoi (青い) (talk) 19:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aoi and Flabshoe1: Just to let you both know, an IP editor has changed the position of the column twice since March, which I think is pretty suspect in and of itself. I don't have the article watchlisted even though I probably should now. If either of you could also be on the lookout for other editors disregarding this consensus, it'd be appreciated. Ss11209:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added sales for Positions and Eternal Sunshine based on the official mid-year reports by MRC/Luminate Data from 2021 and 2024, which were reverted by @Mirrored7 with the message "Only add sales in their entirely or when its year-end." What is the basis to this rule? Flabshoe1 (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Flabshoe1: I think it's silly and would like to know where this comes from too. There is no rule or guideline that says we should have to wait until a certain period of time is over before adding sales, and is likely something Mirrored7 made up. Besides, what are "sales in their entirety"? When are sales ever finished? Digital downloads exist now. These albums are still selling copies to this day. A mid-year report for sales of Eternal Sunshine is about as complete a figure as we can get at this point. Ss11223:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any such rule. Further, the user who removed the content has not opined here despite being pinged, so I am restoring the sales info. Aoi (青い) (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't made up anything. The first one has incomplete figures and is not accurate. Those are not the numbers, so why it should be included? Including the 6k figure is laughable and misinformative. What's next? The 500 sales in France? It doesn't reflect the album success. Grande is a streaming artist, so why adding any sales besides the US in the first place, when you yourself said, that it will not get any better?
How is the 6k figure "misinformative", when it is exactly what the album sold until July 2024? Wikipedia is based on reliable facts and we don't exclude information based on what looks "good" or "bad" for an artist. If you believe that Grande is a streaming artist and that sales don't reflect her success, then you should be arguing the column should be removed entirely. But as long as the column exists, it is silly to exclude information because the sales are too low. Flabshoe1 (talk) 13:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the sales figures are incomplete. The first only includes the first two weeks numbers and the half of the year of 2021. There has been no sales update since 2021. Those numbers aren't accurate, why they should be added? Mirrored7 (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So to you, "accurate" means sales updates until the present day? In that case, no sales update is accurate. US sales of My Everything, Dangerous Woman, Sweetener, and Thank U, Next were last updated in 2020, which is even older than 2021, why are you not advocating for their removal? As @Ss112 mentioned, sales are never finished so this is a flawed logic. Flabshoe1 (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I want you to know, that has nothing to do with you or your content. I appreciate you work. The other US sales of her albums are in their entirely, while "Positions" has only it's first two weeks and the first half of 2021. The source of the rest of the 2020's numbers isn't available. So it's flawed and not the right number. Like you said, Billboard hasn't updated her albums sales since 2020, which is the most reliable source to go with. Mirrored7 (talk) 21:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The exact time period the sales were accumulated in was clearly included in a note for readers to understand, which is the same policy that has been applied to Ariana's other albums. No album has sales listed "in their entirety" - what does that mean, as sales are always increasing day by day? If your argument is that the sales must be listed completely from release date up to a certain point (which is also an arbitrary rule, by the way), then why have you reverted the change for Eternal Sunshine, which includes all of its sales from release date until July 2024? Flabshoe1 (talk) Flabshoe1 (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why including the Canada figure first place? It's such a low figure and not noteworthy in the slightest. Especially, because Grande was never a pure sales artist. Mirrored7 (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no rule stating that if a sales figure looks too bad or low, then it must be excluded. Secondly, if you believe that Grande is not a pure sales artist, then the column should not exist entirely. This halfway measure where we can only include "good" numbers but not any numbers that are too low and make her look bad is deliberately hiding reliably sourced information from readers. Flabshoe1 (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RfC for whether album sales for Positions and Eternal Sunshine should be added to table
For additional context, here are the sales in the original way they were cited in the table:
Positions US sales: 158,000
Sales of Positions in the United States, including its first week (42,000),[1] second week (8,000),[2] and sales between January 1 and July 1, 2021 (108,000).[3]
Eternal Sunshine CAN sales: 6,000
Sales of Eternal Sunshine in Canada as July 1, 2024.[4]
Yes, include sales numbers. Billboard and Luminate Data are appropriate reliable sources for this purpose, and the figures are WP:DUE for inclusion here since this is a discography article. As long as the table makes clear the time period for which the figures apply (which it did), I don't see any reason not to include the figures. Aoi (青い) (talk) 09:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
