Talk:Asako Toki

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Requested move 3 May 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Asako Toki → Toki Asako – Most common Latin-script name is "Toki Asako", printed on all of her albums and singles and on official website. Closeapple (talk) 20:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article was renamed from Toki Asako to Asako Toki by Hatto0467 (talk · contribs) on 2009-04-29; this was probably to follow Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Names of modern figures: given name first, family name second. However, the singer's official website http://www.tokiasako.com/ always uses "Toki Asako", and every album and music single also uses the name "Toki Asako". "Toki" appears to be a family name and "Asako" appears to be a given name. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Determining common usage says that the most common version in English should be used (primarily related to romanization); and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Pseudonyms says that the commonly-used name should be used even if it is in family-name-first order. Also, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Article titles says that the policy WP:UE applies. A Google search for "Toki Asako" has about 114,000 results; "Asako Toki" has 55,800 results, many of which are actually titled "Toki Asako" instead. I assume that, per WP:UE, when one English name is most common and also the one used by the person themselves, that the Wikipedia title should match that version. --Closeapple (talk) 20:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Note that there is a precedent for this with another Japanese musician on Wikipedia: Otomo Yoshihide. See Talk:Otomo Yoshihide. Michitaro (talk) 19:43, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I note that the closer of the Otomo RM found that, "a style guide does not trump WP:COMMONNAME, nor does it override our obligations to avoid inaccuracies which may cause harm to living people." Fernando Danger (talk) 05:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – MOS:JP makes exceptions for the spelling of real names, and exceptions for spelling and name order of the pseudonyms of athletes, artists and other famous persons. It should also make exceptions for the order of the real names of athletes, artists and other famous persons. And whichever order the article uses, it should have a redirect for the other one. There is never going to be a single rule, without exceptions, that covers all of the various ways that Japanese people want to spell their names. – Margin1522 (talk) 06:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- In other words, instead of "always" family name last, the MOS should be "normally" family name last. – Margin1522 (talk) 06:52, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. That's what WP:COMMONNAME is all about. We follow the MoS (in this case GIVEN–FAMILY) unless sources overwhelmingly use a different form. A search for "asako toki" -"toki asako" gives 44,500 hits, versus "toki asako" -"asako toki" which gives 101,000 hits—but when restircted to English the hits drop to 37,900—many of which are still Japanese (the English hits are the only ones that count for en.wp). The reason I'm weak opposing is that I'm not a strong proponent of this aspect of the MoS—but as long as it is in the MoS, this move would be a violation. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 11:43, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support because all albums and official site use "Toki Asako". Google searches are not always effective, especially when trying to establish naming order. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - A close examination reveals, so far, no actual English-language usage of Toki Asako from Wikipedia-defined reliable sources
- Even though the official site uses "Toki Asako" in Roman characters, and the link labels are in English, clicking the links reveals that in reality he official website is in Japanese and it seems like the "Toki Asako" is just being used as mere decoration. For example it shows up in Japanese-language titles of music collections. For that matter "Toki Asako" gets no substantial English Google Books hits.
- What do actual English-language reliable sources use? The Japan Times for example uses Western order. Billboard also uses western order.
- The case of Otomo Yoshihide is different because he says clearly on his personal website in English that he doesn't want to be called in the western order
WhisperToMe (talk) 03:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:UE/MOS:JP. Of course a Japanese singer uses Japanese order. But we're not a Japanese encyclopedia. --BDD (talk) 15:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.