Talk:Ash heap of history

Rome[edit]

I removed the sentence:

Visiting Rome in the 14th century, Italian writer Petrarch called the city "a rubbish heap of history".^[1]

Reddit convincingly argued that Petrarch said no such thing. If you disagree, please provide the original text of Petrarch.- Altenmann >talk 05:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, irrelevant here. People say similar things all the time. No reliable sources draw connection of the allegedly ancient phrase about Rome and the article subject, If you disagree, please provide your evidence in the article or at least it talkpage. - Altenmann >talk

Reddit: The phrase "rubbish heap of history" appears to be a translation of the German phrase "ein Scherbenberg der Weltgeschichte" ("a mountain of shards of history"), as translated by Annie Hamilton in her translation of the German historian Ferdinand Gregorovius' "History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages". It comes from a chapter of Gregorovius describing Rome's decline before Petrarch visits it, so is at least tangentially related.. ^[2] - This sounds reasonable for me. If this was so, the phrase "a mountain of shards of history" is quite literal description, rather than figurative. All ruins of Rome are quite literally "shards of history", unlike the discussed phrase, whose prime meaning is historial irrelevance of some things, which is not the case of Rome. Since it appear to be the caser of "Chinese whispers" in translations, multiplied by brainless repetitions thereof, the original Pertarka's words are duly required. This is not the first case when Wikipedians would uncover sloppy scholarship. - Altenmann >talk 21:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gregorovius didnt attribute this to Petrarka, unlike it is written in the internets, e.g. here.

Gregorovious writes: "Petrarch's brief sojourn inspired him to write a poetic epistle to Benedict XII., whom he summoned to return to the deserted city, the incalculable misery of which he beheld with his own eyes" -- can someone find this epistle to see what Petrarch actua;ly wrote there? - Altenmann >talk 21:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gregorovious writes in his own words: Sie starrte in Armut und Dunkel, verrottet und zerschlagen wie ein Scherbenberg der Weltgeschichte', während im fernen Avignon der Papst, ihrer vergessend, Gold und Schätze aufhäufte - Altenmann >talk 22:16, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"In December 1334, Pope John XXII died and was succeeded by Benedict XII. Petrarch addressed to this pontiff two poetical epistles urging him to restore the Holy See to Rome, and the pope (no doubt at the instance of the Colonnas) bestowed upon the poet the office of Canon of Lombez." - Altenmann >talk 21:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exiled Rome and August Pope: Petrarch’s Letters to Benedict XII Get access Arrow L. B. T. Houghton https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199603848.003.0003 Pages 41–58 - Who has access to read this? - Altenmann >talk 22:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Hibbert, Christopher (25 October 2001). Rome: The Biography of a City. Google books: Penguin Books. pp. Chapter six. ISBN 978-0140070781. Retrieved 28 April 2018.
^ Did Petrarch describe Rome as a "rubbish heap of history"?

[1] Hibbert, Christopher (25 October 2001). Rome: The Biography of a City. Google books: Penguin Books. pp. Chapter six. ISBN 978-0140070781. Retrieved 28 April 2018.

[2] Did Petrarch describe Rome as a "rubbish heap of history"?

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