Talk:Ashraf Ghani

Untitled

Hm. I just noticed that the article ends by saying "His latest editorial with Clare Lockhart, with whom he is co-writing a book on state-building, appeared on January 1, 2006 in the Washington Post."(bold mine). The username of the editor who uploaded this large amount of unwikified text (making me wonder about copyvio issues), is named "Clarelockhart". I wonder if it's the same person, or just someone pretending to be them... JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

He wont suceed Koffi

So he wont succeed Koffi, can someone update the page.Kendirangu 12:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

He is Fourth in Afghan Election 2009

He is not third as he is just behind the third person who is Dr. Ramazan Bashardost. so far he has less than 3% of the votes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.245.19 (talk) 02:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Academic Career

The language, as it stands, makes it sound like he merely applied to teach at Johns Hopkins Unniversity, which is trivial. If he actually was a professor at Johns Hopkins (which, as an alumni, is what I had heard), then the language should be changed to reflect that. MovingTree (talk) 01:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Mohammed?

Why is this in the page title? It is not referenced as his birth name or in the header. Is it a title? Nevermore27 (talk) 04:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Nevermore27: I was about to ask about the same thing. Currently Mohammed Arabic: محمد is in the transliteration of the name in the intro but nowhere else.

I think it's just a case of someone being known by a middle name. e.g. I think Richard Dawkins is C. R. Dawkins on his old scientific papers. And I knew a guy who's official legal first name was Mohammad but he was known by his middle names. I think it's partly that is such a common first name that it's not useful to identify someone. It would probably be given as a first name with that in mind, but I think it goes in the "given names" field in official documents.

I'm not sure if it's correct for this article though. I just removed a lot of other transliterations that were just insults in Pashto and Dari. I don't speak either but I read Arabic enough to see it didn't match, and I looked up the meanings. But I left in Arabic: محمد because it is a name.

Irtapil (talk) 08:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Lol damn I asked this 5 years ago. Nevermore27 (talk) 08:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Name???

Almost literally every news source, let alone English source, calls him "Ashraf Ghani". Why is this his title? Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:07, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

@Therequiembellishere: Currently Mohammed Arabic: محمد is in the transliteration of the name in the intro but nowhere else. And Ahmadzai is in the intro without a transliteration.

I think Mohammed is just a case of him being known by a middle name. I think it's partly that is such a common first name that it's not useful to identify someone. I've not seen him called the anywhere though. So I'm not sure if it's correct for this article.

I just removed a lot of other transliterations that were just insults in Pashto and Dari. I don't speak either but I read Arabic enough to see it didn't match, and I looked up the meanings. But I left in Arabic: محمد because it is a name.

He's referred to as Ahmadzai in a few sources, I think it might be a tribal affiliation or something? But I don't know how to spell it in Dari or Pashto.

Irtapil (talk) 08:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I wanna ask the same question. What is each part of his name? Which is given name, family name, patrymonic name or whatsoever? Why is he referred to as Ghani? Butcher2021 (talk) 14:20, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Sourcing, copyright

A substantial amount of text was added in 2006[1]. Parts of it were recently deleted as unsourced. This seems to have been done abruptly, without previously tagging the material as needing references, even though the material did not look - at first glance - dubious or promotional. After it was reinstated, I deleted parts as copyright violations because identical or extremely closely matching text was to be found in various places including the subjects own official biography as president of Afghanistan[2]. I hadn't yet noticed the text was added to Wikipedia in 2006, eight years before Ashraf Ghani became president.
In 2006, JesseW raised concerns about that text here[3] and on the contributing editor's talk page[4]. The editor, Clarelockhart, didn't reply or edit again so the questions of copyright and conflict of interest remain outstanding.
When I realised that the 2006 text couldn't have been copied from the presidential biography, I considered self-reverting. But while it's possible the presidential biog was copied from Wikipedia, I think it's more likely that both spring from some other text that predates both, might have been written by Lockhart and might even have been partly written by Ashraf Ghani himself. This might have been in a book, in a list of conference speakers - there are many possibilities and also a cloud of mirrors of Wikipedia.
An editor with access to a good library, JSTOR etc might be able to find a common source. For now, I suggest the material should not be added back without being freshly sourced and rewritten from scratch without even the close paraphrasing that remains. NebY (talk) 21:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding your this edit, you removed "Ghani completed his primary and secondary education in Habibia High School in Kabul." Are you implying he never went to high school but straight to American University in Beirut? Isn't that impossible? You also removed "Ghani returned to Afghanistan in 1977 to teach anthropology at Kabul University before receiving a government scholarship in 1977 to pursue his Ph.D. in anthropology at Columbia University in the United States which he completed in 1982." Are you saying this is false? He is widely known as one of the most educated Afghans in the world. It makes no sense to remove this specific information from his article. You further removed "During this period he became a frequent commentator on the BBC Farsi/Persian and Pashto services, broadcast in Afghanistan." This is also a well known fact, why remove it? I also disagree with you removing the rest of the information. This guy didn't just pop out of no where. He is highly educated and well known throughout the world. He has done a lot during the last 3 or 4 decades. The article should be improved by adding information and not the other way around.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 05:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Text that violates copyright has to be removed - see Wikipedia:Copyright violations. It makes no difference whether the information conveyed by that text is accurate or relevant or properly sourced - it has to be removed anyway. This is a matter of Wikipedia policy with legal considerations.

There is good clear advice at Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing#How to write acceptable content, which begins To properly paraphrase content, you review information from reliable sources, extract the salient points, and use your own words, style and sentence structure to draft text for an article. Of course, you should also take care to cite reliable sources that directly support your text. NebY (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violation only applies to copying significant amount of text. It doesn't apply to copying a single word or two, such as the name of a school, college or place of work, etc. Plus, you can add quotation marks and then there is no violation.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I will answer some critical points raised by both. First off, whether the removed text came from president's biography to Wikipedia or Wikipedia to biography, it cannot be added back because it lacks a reliable source. If the source is copied from Wikipedia then source is questionable and if Wikipedia is copied from source then it's a copy rights violation and president's biography makes it WP:PRIMARY as well and primary sources are not accepted as reliable sources. Now, the question is whether the text came from another third-party source then we need to find that source and establish whether that source qualifies as a reliable source.

Whether we can mention that president went to university and not mention that he went to school and which school? Yes we can do that, it will be WP:COMMONSENSE and an understood matter to a reader that he completed all primary and elementary levels of education before arriving in university.

Nobody here is questioning the president's educational capability or anything else but any content that goes in the article should be in line with Wikipedia policies. Sheriff (report) 16:05, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Krzyhorse22, this is a case of whole sentences, not of "a single word or two". As for just adding quotation marks, you'll see if you look around Wikipedia that we don't do that for such material. Wikipedia:Quotations is worth reading on this. To put it another way, we don't use quotes for mundane text expressing well-sourced information that we can simply put into our own words and follow with a citation, we use them for peculiarly well-phrased explanations and other bon mots, and to illustrate opinions whose factual basis is arguable. We're also conscious that putting "scare quotes" around text can suggest that it is dubious or exaggerated, which hardly seems to be a desirable effect here. NebY (talk) 13:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Residence in Pakistan?

There's been some argument in article edits and edit summaries over whether it's appropriate to include the category "Afghan expatriates in Pakistan". At present, nothing in the article says that he's been resident in Pakistan. An edit comment asserted that "You cannot obtain a Pakistani identity card without living in Pakistan at the minimum, see the url: http://tribune.com.pk/story/932405/afghan-president-holds-pakistani-identity-card/" but this breaches WP:SYNTH and is founded on a single report in which the record of issuing an identity card was used to demonstrate corruption in Pakistan, implying the card had not been properly issued. We cannot use it as evidence that Ghani lived in Pakistan. Do we have a reliable source stating that he - not his relatives - lived in Pakistan as an expatriate? NebY (talk) 22:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Pakistani media is under the control of Pakistan's military.[5] At least 71 journalists have been killed since 2001. 47 of them have been assassinated by rival groups, including by the government. Pakistanis as a whole have been telling the world that Osama bin Laden was not in Pakistan but rather in Afghanistan. In the end we all saw this was a one big lie. They have said the same about all terrorist leaders, including Taliban leaders, and when they say Afghan President, a U.S. citizen, obtained a Pakistani identity card, which is a crime that carries up to 5 years in Pakistani jail, are we suppose to believe this nonsense? Pakistan is considered a poor country, why would anyone from America do such thing? Btw, an American or anyone else can legally live in Pakistan for many years without needing to make phony Pakistani documents.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 05:27, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Krzyhorse22, your comment crosses all levels of absurdity and shows that you are an anti-Pakistan pov.

Pakistan hosted 30 millions of you for 30 years and it's quite possible that one of those 30 millions was Ashraf Ghani and he might have obtained Pakistani ID card during his years of homelessness in Pakistan to brighten his prospects as a Pakistani citizen. This was just to answer your absurdity with absurdity.yes was served with honer during bad time but after all he become rival to his host its nature of ghani know in the lap of india a muslim killer country and under the umbrella of narinder mudi leader of purely muslims killing theory.

Now if we put The Express Tribune source on the side. What do you say about the following text from inside the article:

"In 1985, he completed a year of fieldwork researching on Pakistani madrassas as a Fulbright Scholar."

Doesn't this make the article qualify for this category?

This category was not added by me but someone who added it must had a reason for that. Sheriff (report) 16:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not anti-Pakistan, I have a Pakistani girlfriend. Most of what you wrote above is nonsense. You successfully proved my point, about you being an extreme pov pusher. President Obama's mother Ann Dunham also lived in Pakistan for a short time so I think she also made a Pakistani ID. Pakistan is a very poor country, why would someone from America want to make a Pakistani ID? Pakistanis flee from their country just like Afghans to live and work in other countries. Ghani legally entered the U.S. for study purposes in 1977, then the Soviet war began in 1979 so he remained in the U.S. [6] That would mean he likely applied for adjustment of status, i.e., applied for legal residency (green card). That's the time when the U.S. passed new law to allow thousands of Afghans, especially people like Ghani who had U.S. connection. You give a reason why he couldn't or wouldn't have applied for legal status. Therefore, he should've been a U.S. citizen by 1985 carrying a U.S. passport like Ann Dunham. I'm not even sure if Pakistan had national id card in 1985. I thought they were first issued in 2003.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Pakistani ID cards existed ever since, they just got computerized in 2003. Sheriff (report) 09:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I was not sure how to reply to an extreme pov pusher. Both of your comments in this very section reflect an extreme pov pusher so I just replied in kind. Ann Dunham's case is different, she is an American born American but Afghan expatriates who lived in Pakistan were born in a war torn country and displaced by an ongoing conflict. There is no source claiming that Obama's mother holds Pakistani ID so why are you putting two together. Sheriff (report) 20:59, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

There is also no reliable source claiming that Ghani holds Pakistani ID. What that one angry Pakistani said is irrational, just like you claiming that Pakistan hosted 30 million Afghans.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that number was 3 millions, 0 was a typo :) Sheriff (report) 09:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"Doesn't this make the article qualify for this category?" No, it doesn't. WP:COPDEF (part of Wikipedia:Categorization of people) is clear and there's no need for WP:OR discussions of identity card law, Ann Dunham and who's pushing what POV. I'll remove it. NebY (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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The article needs to be locked

If I don't work out how, can someone who does know how please lock it.

I just removed a lot of other transliterations that were just insults in Pashto and Dari. (I don't speak either but I read Arabic enough to see it didn't match, and I looked up the meanings.) But I left two.

Ahmadzai is in the intro without transliteration. He's referred to as Ahmadzai in a few sources, I think it might be a tribal affiliation or something? But I don't know how to spell it in Dari or Pashto.

I left in Mohammed محمد because it is a name. And I think it's common for Mohammed to be an official first name for man known by his middle name. Since it's an extremely common first name to the point of not being useful to identify someone. I've not seen him called that anywhere though. So I'm not sure if it's correct?

Irtapil (talk) 09:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

You mentioned on WP:Afghanistan that you wanted extended confirmed protection, but in my opinion, semi confirmed or pending changes would work. I don't know policy well enough to know which, but that is what I think. You also could go to WP:RFP. --Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 12:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Abandonment does not necessarily constitute resignation. This article needs to be locked if and until he formally resigns. All edits should revert. ClaudeDavid (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

he left the country

reuters on twitter. According to the interior minister he left the country RVK23 (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Abandonment does not necessarily constitute resignation. This article needs to be locked if and until he formally resigns. All edits should revert. ClaudeDavid (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

But de facto he is now president of his own chair and nothing more, so while resignation maybe is not given yet in same time he no longer is in power over a country he is a president. Article should note that. Loesorion (talk) 14:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

He fled country not left

He had fled the country not left in some usual way presidents leave country for diplomatic visit, business abroad or vacation or similar normal ways - fled or flee or fleeing is supported by numerous sources .

Sure,  Done. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Weird vandalism

I keep seeing this and I can't undo this.

I keep seeing an old German flag at this page and I can't undo it anywhere in the history, if I am in "Mobile view" this flag still appears and I can't see "History" or "Discussion" anywhere, how can we undo this vandalism? --Donald Trung (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Same,I’m trying to get around it somehow. Chariotrider555 (talk) 13:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

It is gone on one phone (my wife's) but I still see it on another. --Donald Trung (talk) 14:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I've traced the appearance of the flag to this edit: Special:Permalink/1038968634

For easy comparison, here's the prior edit: Special:Permalink/1038968551 71.70.72.0 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021

In the first sentence, please change "when he fled country." to "when he fled the country." 64.203.186.84 (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Already done ― Tartan357 ^Talk 16:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (2)

At the end of the short description, that is after "On 15 August 2021, Afghan officials stated that Ghani had left the presidential palace Sunday morning to the US embassy[17] and from there he fled Afghanistan as the Taliban entered Kabul." add the follow sentence: Ghani had fled the country with four cars and a helicopter full of cash and had to leave some money behind as it would not all fit in. Yoloyolo92131 (talk) 14:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Reuters report is sourced to RIA, which is not generally considered to be a reliable source for anything except Russian government announcements. See WP:RSPSOURCES. Let's see if it gets confirmed by independent third parties. -- The Anome (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

He would not be a first "leader" in history to escape with money or gold or other valuables when a country he leads is in trouble or in dire situation. Loesorion (talk) 18:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Still the President

Until Ashraf Ghani officially resigns he remains the democratically elected president of Afghanistan, despite being forced to flee the country. The Taliban's de facto control of the country does not alter the legitimacy of Ghani's leadership as the legal authority, nor does Russia's willingness to cooperate with a hypothetical transitional government negate the wider international recognition for Ghani's administration. 2607:FEA8:459F:B6A2:1E4:2F66:5780:B2F4 (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Not always resign is needed it is possible to be deposed or impeached or even something worse could happen.

He is not president not even de jure because he is absent and under Afghan constitution it is a reason he is not eligible to be current president. And legitimacy is usually in all countries lost whenever some high administrative public figure that is in power flee country and here it is for certain that for president to flee country he has lost a right to be president. By fleeing he has negated oath he took while swearing to be president. And there is a act of treason or similar laws that in this common situation - leader escapes - describes treason and fleeing the enemies certainly is treason because he is aiding and abating enemies by doing so.

And while talking about so called democratic Afghanistan we should not forget their constitution that writes "No law shall contravene the tenets and provisions of the holy religion of Islam in Afghanistan." It is Islamic religious state not some democracy in common sense so they - Taliban - will be within constitution to put Ghani on trial even under Sharia laws.

And Russia stance is that Afghanistan exists as a country regardless of leadership so I don't see why are you implicating Russia with facts if Ghani is still president. And of course there is possibilities to have multiple governments in one country - for example see current situation in Libya but situation here under Afghan constitution is clear. Let me cite Afghan constitution:" In case of absence, resignation or death of the President, the first Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution. In the absence of the first Vice-President, the second Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution."

If vice president has not resigned, fled or died he - vice president - is current president by Afghan constitution. If he - first vice president - fled also then second vice president is in power and so on... Loesorion (talk) 18:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This seems like WP:OR to me. We should not be reading the Constitution, a primary source, and declaring an acting president. We have to wait to see what secondary sources say. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 20:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Nothing to do with WP:OR Afghan constitution is published public document and most reliable and easily verifiable source - link provided in article as reference - for establishing legality in this case and how succession of Afghan president is supposed to be. It is primary published source and no other source can beat him and it is directly related to the topic of this article. Loesorion (talk) 23:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is a primary source, which is exactly why we can't use it. Read WP:PRIMARY. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

It can be used because and I will quote "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." And that primary source can be supported by other secondary sources who published Afghan constitution

www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/The_Constitution_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Afghanistan.pdf

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Afghanistan_2004

and even discussed in news that gives links to primary source

https://thediplomat.com/2021/08/afghanistans-failed-constitution/ and other places

https://constitutionnet.org/country/constitutional-history-afghanistan

Loesorion (talk) 23:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

See:

Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.

You are entirety missing the point of the policy. On Wikipedia, we cannot draw our own conclusions about the way things are playing out in the real world based on the way we think they "should" occur. We need a source saying the thing has actually happened. In this case, we need a source saying a succession occurred. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not missing anything you do not read sources and I am not drawing my conclusion out of thin air but I am editing article using source and according to and yet you give claims about missing points on policy. If you have read sources provided here you would read that there is in Afghan constitution president succession described and what are conditions for it and absent president is one condition. If you can not understand legal matters and wording from sources needed to edit article according to source involving who is next in line for president then just do not involve in edits I will gladly explain anything you do not understand, but do not bluntly change edits based on sourced material, and you do not need a source that sky is blue. Loesorion (talk) 23:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

You do not need a source that the sky is blue, but you do need a source to say someone is president of a country in turmoil. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Source is telling you who is president and how someone is becoming a president, no other source can tell you that but constitution, presidents do not become just like that out of thin air, but always have some legal written document that mention president - not a name of president but president as function and deputies if they exists - As I said, have some time to carefully read source I hope I have explained enough to understand what is primary source for obtaining any high state level public function in any state in world that has legal documents that constitute constitutions. Succession of president is explained in source and it can not legally be done otherwise. Is former president Ashraf Ghani absent? He is and sources provide us with that information, he fled, if you expect that any other legal ways could be for successor please provide source for legal successor within Afghan constitution and tell me who will change president who fled and be within legal Afghan framework. Maybe tomorrow there will be new constitution in Afghanistan so there even will be no more presidents but kings or emirs - who knows - but according to constitution 14 president was elected and that is still in use for his presidency that legaly ended it is as I described and edited accordingly. Loesorion (talk) 00:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if Ashraf is still the president of Afghanistan or not. Wheter he's still in office or not. Just wish his infobox & the infoboxes of his two vice presidents, were consistent. GoodDay (talk) 01:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Tartan357 Ashraf is no longer president, not legally. Another source that confirms my writing that Vice president is successor of president as it is written in constitution - for readers here who can not easily interpret direct legal source such a constitution.

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/555b270d4.pdf

and you can read in chapter 3.3. why there is under constitution two vice presidents in Afghanistan - someone was aware that because security issues there is a need for two if president is gone - and that is a case here, and the second VP will succeed first VP if first is absent.

And here is one article that discusses absence of former Vice president regarding constitutional role - to better understand what absence means regarding Afghan constitution

https://tolonews.com/afghanistan/questions-raised-over-dostum%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98absence%E2%80%99-official-meetings and he was absent just from meetings not completely absent from country

Within new rule of Taliban under their constitution there will not be presidents anymore but Emir chosen by assembly of shura al-ahl al-hal wal-‘aqd.

And in end of this contribution of mine maybe you should be informed that in Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Wikipedia article Republic has ended and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has began to exist again. To whom and what is Ashraf Ghani still a president? Legally to no one and even according to Wikipedia articles country he swore to be president does not exist anymore. But I will say again even if for one minute first Vice President was a president or second Vice President was president legally under Afghan constitution that should be noted in this article and articles about presidents of Afghanistan. Loesorion (talk) 11:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

President is not a government - no government in exile

President of any country does not constitutes whole government. Loesorion (talk) 23:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Does it say that anywhere in the article? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

You added in article that one man a former president is "government in exile" with what you support such claim? Where are a sources for that? Loesorion (talk) 23:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That is not true, I didn't do that. Don't be silly. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

it is easy to see from history of article what are you doing including repeatedly undo and by doing so deleting my edits while they are supported by sources you revert to your edits unsupported by any source. In Revision as of 19:43, 16 August 2021 you added Government in exile to article without any source to support such claim. Loesorion (talk) 23:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That is the target of a piped link, not display text. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:05, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

So you do not mind if I remove again Government in exile - nothing to do with pipe link and btw you added that saying "Better way of presenting the infobox; we're still treating him as the incumbent in exile". People who understands laws and constitution will not treat him as incumbent in exile or ever give him status of government in exile because first and most this is internal dispute in Afghanistan and meddling in such a way by giving anyone government in exile status would create international chaos. Crazy as it maybe seems to be but better legal chance had Taliban after 2001 to have recognized government in exile because of USA military intervention was external meddling in independent state with later military invasion involved. Loesorion (talk) 00:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

There are sources saying he's in exile: [7], [8]. He's still widely recognized as president by the international community, and our article should reflect that. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Do you understand what I write, he in "exile" and "government in exile" are two different things? I do not care that he is in exile which is to a point now Ok to say - but maybe not in a long term as his personal situation change - and I am not talking about that, you have written that he is Government in exile - do you understand a difference? I want to remove Government in exile do not mix with other. Loesorion (talk) 00:42, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I have not written "government in exile", I have targeted a link there, with the display text "in exile". There is a difference. We have quite a bit of leeway with link targets. Government in exile is the most useful article to target. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Governments in exile are bad news, they usually destroy more than they build up - as quick research shows. Nobody should listen to them. Over time, the Exile paragraph should confirm or deny that Ghani had to resign because the Taliban promised a peaceful entry into Kabul for his resignation which largely happened. There are rumors he left with huge amounts of cash, and that also needs to be confirmed or discounted. 2001:8003:A070:7F00:58B3:8F78:F0EB:F4FB (talk) 01:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Whatever yas decide on the intro & infobox of this article? can you do the same for the two veep articles? GoodDay (talk) 01:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, I did, but some IPs changed the VP ones, unexplained. I just changed them back. Some are adding unreferenced term end dates and successors, so page protection may be needed at some point. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 01:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Considering what's currently happening there. There will indeed be a lot of back-and-forth activity, in related bios. GoodDay (talk) 02:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I see that one man to be "government in exile" was removed in article by some editor - so we could end this discussion here I suppose? Loesorion (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Now there's a dispute over whether or not Ghani has been succeeded as president, let alone whether he's still president. The influx among this & related articles, is going to continue for awhile, until the dust settles. GoodDay (talk) 14:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

New President confirmed Ashraf Ghani is history - as per constitution of Afghanistan

Amrullah Saleh is now confirmed as new 15th President per Afghanistan constitution - Loesorion (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Was there an old 15th President? Anyways, it's all quite confusing, at the moment. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

What old 15th president, if Ashraf Ghani was 14th then new or next one is 15th. Nothing confusing here, quite normal developing and as I expected - someone did read my writings here. Loesorion (talk) 15:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Just nitpicking on the grammar. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It's worth noting that while Amrullah Saleh has asserted himself to be caretaker president, this doesn't necessarily mean that he is caretaker president. I can't find any reliable sources that say that he definately is (only that he asserts himself as such) and I've written a little bit about his claim here. This is, of course, on top of the fact that the Taliban are now in charge of the country.

As for the numbering, while I can't find anything in Wikipedia policy, the precedent from the article 'List of presidents of the United States' appears to be that "[p]residents are numbered according to uninterrupted periods served by the same person... A vice president who temporarily becomes acting president under the Twenty-fifth Amendment to the Constitution is not counted, because the president remains in office during such a period." As Saleh asserts himself to be caretaker president, should he be assigned a number? I realise that this likely depends on whether Ashraf Ghani has resigned, which (as far as I can tell) isn't completely clear. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that just because Amrullah Saleh has asserted himself to be caretaker president, that doesn't mean that Ashraf Ghani has left office. In fact, apart from a couple dubious articles that suggest that Ghani has resigned, I haven't found any reliable sources that say that Ghani is no longer President and certainly none are in use in this article. Clearly, the Taliban are now in charge of the country, but I suggest that until a reliable source explicitly says that Ghani is no longer President, that we don't assert it in this article. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Amrullah Saleh has just given audio broadcast to BBC News where he confirms that former president fled country and he is now acting as president as per Afghan Constitution. We do not need article that says who is next president or had he - former president - resigned or not as in this case he fled country - he could be on long vacation and that would not change that he is not in country doing his duty - and we have constitution that describes who and when and in what circumstances is then president and could act as one. Constitution precedes any other written article about that matter and other articles could only confirm what is written in Constitution as that is publicly available legal binding document. There is no more reliable source then constitution of any country regarding legal matter of who and how is in the office and when or how his duty's start or stop. If this constitution had lacking in that area about who and when is next in line to be in charge and in what circumstances I would agree that we need more but here that is not a case as they predicted this situation in constitution. We should not forget that in parts Afghan constitution was modeled on Constitution of the United States and that constitution also have role for Vice president and when he is in charge or replaces president. US constitution regarding VP in Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 stipulates that the vice president takes over the "powers and duties" of the presidency in the event of a president's removal, death, resignation, or inability. In Afghan constitution inability is absence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963 Loesorion (talk) 19:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Afghan news reporter in The Pentagon asks Pentagon spokesman John Kirby where is my former president Ashraf Ghani. https://www.newsweek.com/ex-afghan-vp-amrullah-saleh-declares-resistance-taliban-i-am-caretaker-president-1620208 She said while asking we don't have a president. He is former. Loesorion (talk) 19:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Ashraf Ghani is former or ex again in many news https://www.businessinsider.com/afghanistan-ashraf-ghani-confidence-taliban-resistance-us-troop-withdrawal-2021-8 https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/08/16/afghanistan-taliban-ashraf-ghani-flees-robertson-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/afghanistan-falls-to-the-taliban/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/world/asia/afghanistan-president-ashraf-ghani.html

So could we please close drama in this Talk about Ashraf Ghani is he former or not. He is former and he removed himself from office by fleeing a country that is under attack and that also amounts to a treason. Expecting a formal resignation or anything else from person who in any normal country would be trialed for Treason is something a bit ridiculous I must note. Loesorion (talk) 19:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi again! I still don't think that the constitution is explicit as you seem to read it and I also wouldn't describe these talk page discussions as drama, but I'd be more than happy to come to a conclusion! Those reliable sources more than satisfy me that Ashraf Ghani is no longer president and I will make the necessary edits to the article - thank you for them. I don't know when you want to put as his last day, however. 15 August 2021 appears to be supported by the BBC News source already in use, which says that the Taliban took control of the country on Sunday, so I think that I'll put that. I'll also fix some of the citations and POV wording while I'm at it. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done as per consensus. Cordyceps-Zombie, I think that we were editing the article at the same time and I reversed your edits, to keep with this consensus. In particular, if you'd like to add anything about Ghani's presidency being disputed, so long as you use reliable sources, I'd be more than happy for you to do that! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I'd be more than happy for you to write about Ghani being the disputed president in the article body. I think that to include that information in the first paragraph of the lede or the infobox would require a new consensus. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It was partially a drama for me probably because for me all this was obvious and expected but that in part is influenced by lacking of analytical skills on my side :) , and drama was unfolding in same time here in talk pages because some people even without any sources made from disgraceful - as in sources - escapee Ashraf Ghani whole Government while lacking of understanding what any formally internationally recognized Government in exile must have in order to have such designation - or any person could make government anywhere at whim. In future we would probably in end have in Afghan situation like in Libya with two governments one more recognized and one less. And lets not forget that in Russia Taliban's are still outlawed - for those who mentioned Russia and mixed it with puppet government and puppet president of Afghanistan as they had much influence on what is US puppet doing. And people around world was wondering how puppet collapsible so quick - me not. Now lets stop my mumbling, yes he left on 15 august and that is a day his tenure ended. Thank you for your contribution here in Talk FollowTheTortoise it made me better doing my job as a editor and contributor. Best regards. Loesorion (talk) 20:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

That's very kind of you to say. And thank you for engaging with me on the talk page - some editors wouldn't have! It was also very interesting to discuss the constitution with you. I'm going to take a step back from this article and Amrullah Saleh now - I feel that removing statments that aren't supported by reliable sources or fixing other parts of the article that may not follow other Wikipedia policies probably isn't the best use of another couple of hours of my life and I'd hate to be accused of edit warring! It would be really useful if we could get a reliable source to explicitly say that Ghani left office on 15 August 2021, however, as I am a little bit nervous about that now, but I'll leave it to other editors to sort out! Have a great evening, best wishes and stay safe! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

Add degrees to alma mater section of the infobox:
American University of Beirut (BA)
Columbia University (MA, PhD)

Normsupon (talk) 23:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Status is part of Wikipedia infobox template for officials

| status

is part of original Wikipedia infobox template for officials. It is useful to know in infobox current status of official, like: resigned, former, current, incumbent and so on. For that reason status is integral part of infobox - do not remove it. Editors could dispute or edit actual writing within status line based on sources but again do not remove status line as it is part of template. [unsigned]

Exile

CNN has confirmed that he is in the UAE. News article is here- TTTTRZON (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Where does it say he's in exile? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Still President?

Argh! This BBC News article refers to Ashraf Ghani as "Afghanistan's President Ashraf Ghani..." and says "the US has continued to refer to "President Ghani", with the State Department saying that there has not been a formal handover of power." This is almost definately worth adding to the article, though I'll leave someone else to make the edit as I have stepped back from this page. I'll also leave it up to them to decide what to do with the first paragraph of the lede and the infobox. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Dear ""FollowTheTortoise"" we already have discussion here about that topic(maybe to merge with that topic) I would say it is wishful thinking, he is a history and very likely if any part of old Afghan state survives he would be trialed as a criminal according to Afghan penal code - criminal law - for crimes of corruption and embezzlement and crimes against internal security of state -, in same BBC News source in Headline he is not always addressed as president and they later on continues with mr. for mister instead as President and numerous US officials say he is no longer figure in Afghanistan - statement of US Deputy Secretary of State https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963 is here and there is other statements from other US officials. There is no need nor will be formal handover of power in cases like this when someone abandon post of commander in chief and head of state and escape as their constitution has provided solution for that problem. And we already have many other loyal Afghan official who are demanding trial for Ashraf for his crimes - including former first vice president - now acting president, defense minister, ambassador of Afghanistan in Tajikistan and so on. They - in US - are probably addressing him as president as in US today many are for example addressing Donald Trump or Barack Obama as a president without adding current status - former. Loesorion (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi again. All Wikipedia articles should have a neutral point of view, "which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." This says to me that including the US government's view, published in a BBC News article, that Ahsraf Ghani is still considered President is certainly pertinent (as an aside, I believe that it's a BBC News editorial thing to use "Mr" for pretty much every man and generally avoid phrases like "President X".) This doesn't have to be in the first paragraph of the lede or the infobox.

By the way, I'm still nervous about including 15 August 2021 as the end date and wary of the fact that I included this in the article in the first place (on reflection, I should have used an explicit reliable source to say this/left the decision to somebody else), so if we could find a source to support that or change it, then I really think that that would really improve the article. I found this Tweet from a verified professor which says that Ghani was deposed on 15 August, so that might do, but I won't edit the article myself. Thanks! ~~~~ FollowTheTortoise (talk) 10:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Many sources even ones that are reporting his statement in "defense" - as he was so "innocent" - to flee and abandon country are reporting about him as deposed and or ousted and always former. Wall Street Journal calls him deposed https://www.wsj.com/articles/deposed-afghan-president-ghani-turns-up-in-emirates-11629307780 Sky News calls him ousted https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-ousted-president-ashraf-ghani-in-uae-on-humanitarian-grounds-12384596 , CNBC Ousted https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-is-in-uae-after-fleeing-afghanistan.html and list goes on... Voice of America that is state funded news outlet in USA call him self-exiled and ousted https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/ousted-afghan-president-ghani-united-arab-emirates. Any way we turn he is a history - just like I named in part headline one section here in Talk. Loesorion (talk) 14:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not trying to push any single point of view here, I just thought that the information from the BBC News article might be pertinent information to add. I completely respect and understand that you don't though - in fairness, in practical terms, Ashraf Ghani is history, to put it very crudely. I have also gone ahead and added that Tweet as a source, as I was worried about using 15 August as his last day as President without an explicit reliable source. I promise that that was my last edit to this page though! Have a nice evening! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2021

Is serving as president of Afghanistan. He left the country for security purposes and to avoid bloodshed . In a recent video to the nation , he said he will come back and serve the nation. Ashraf Ghani rejects all other allegations and reports from media since his absence. 50.67.33.75 (talk) 07:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Legal presidential system in Afghanistan - 1 President and 2 Vice Presidents

Legal presidential system in Afghanistan per constitution consists of 1 President and 2 Vice Presidents. All serving officials should be noted in infobox with remarks about date when they served. We can not chose who is more or less important to put in infobox but we must follow legal system in subject country as it is. Loesorion (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Fleeing with cash...

How come the article doesn't mention that he fled the country with millions in cash?...Or at least that he was alleged to do so? This has been widely reported in numerous reputable outlets. While they haven't (yet) been able to confirm it, they have reported the allegation, so I would say that the allegation is notable, in and of itself. -2003:CA:8739:9FDE:7D61:B91E:B36:F9CB (talk) 19:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Reports are not very convincing.

"MOSCOW (AP) The report quoted embassy spokesman Nikita Ishchenko as saying that “the collapse of the regime ... is most eloquently characterized by how Ghani escaped from Afghanistan: four cars were filled with money, they tried to shove another part of the money into a helicopter, but not everything fit. And some of the money was left lying on the tarmac.”

aljazeera: "Ambassador Mohammad Zahir Aghbar told a news conference on Wednesday that Ghani “stole $169m from the state coffers” and called his flight “a betrayal of the state and the nation”.

It would be very hard to take that much in cash, he apparently flew out in a plane. Malaiya (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

As the reports now available make it clear, he flew in a helicopter to Uzbekistan and then from there left for UAE.Malaiya (talk) 05:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not find Nikita Ishchenko credible. Ashraf Ghani could not have fled in cars. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are at least 100 miles from Kabul. He would have to pass through Taliban controlled territory. He must have flown in a plane.

I calculated the weight and volume of US $169m. 1,690 kilograms and 78 cubic feet. How did Aghbar know the exact amount?

Considering the levels of corruption in Afghanistan, and neighboring Pakistan, possibility of the fleeing president taking money cannot be ruled out. However I do not find Ishchenko and Aghbar credible, since they cannot be considered neutral. Ashraf Ghani and his family in US are worth a few million dollars, which would be expected for a successful professional.Malaiya (talk) 05:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 August 2021

Ashraf Ghani left the presidential place on 15th August 2021 for security purposes and to avoid bloodshed. After his absence the neighboring states raised different allegations on him which he rejected in a video message after seeking protection in UAE. 50.67.33.75 (talk) 04:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Already done As far as I can see in the Flight from Afghanistan section of this article, this is already covered. —Sirdog (talk) 07:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2021

109.79.52.149 (talk) 01:19, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Ashraf Ghani 604 .Nobel Prizes.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:35, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2021

Please remove

During his tenure, Ghani has strengthened ties

and add

During his tenure, Ghani strengthened ties

"has strengthened" only makes sense for an incumbent officeholder, not a former officeholder. 64.203.186.84 (talk) 16:52, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:28, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2021 (2)

At the very end of the "Flight from Afghanistan" section, there's an extra comma. A quotation is given, ending with a period and a quotation mark, and reference #81 appears, but between the quotation mark and #81 is a comma. Please remove it. 64.203.186.84 (talk) 16:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:28, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 September 2021

His PHD is in Anthropology DanielLouisStevenHoward (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

دوره اول حکومت اشرف غنی

دوره

اول حکومت اشرف غنی 180.222.141.105 (talk) 12:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

New report about money Ghani

"SIGAR found the theft of millions by Ghani “unlikely” but said the former president did leave with some cash, adding that “evidence indicates that this number did not exceed $1 million and may have been closer in value to $500,000.”"

Susannah George: Millions looted from Afghan government during Taliban takeover. In: Washington Post, 7. Juni 2022. KurtR (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

PR nonsense

This is so blatantly written by a PR firm. Or at best a US State intern. Come on. All his magnificent achievements. Faux criticism to make it seem balanced. Dustek (talk) 21:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)