Talk:Association football/Archive 19

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I know this has probably been debated for years, but I think this page should be moven to: Associated Football (Soccer). Altenhofen (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Aye Alyenhofen it has been "debated for years",in fact it has been "discussed to death" and it was finally decided after a lot of discussion that the present name of Association football is the best compromise. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 23:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Compromise? Noone calls it "association football" - this title thus blatantly breaks Wikipedia conventions for naming of articles (WP:COMMONNAME). The article should be titled "Football (XYZ)", and the only "compromise" would be what to put instead of XYZ. GregorB (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

You obviously haven't read the discussion that took place leading up to the move of this article from "Football (soccer)" to "Association football". "Football (soccer)" is also against WP:NC, as "soccer" is not a disambiguative term in this instance. It merely serves to provide speakers of AmEn with a term they are familiar with. "Association football", however, is a term that is accepted worldwide as the proper name for the sport and, in the absence of a single common name for the sport, it is the best option available. – PeeJay 21:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. "Association football" is an obscure name for the sport, and is certainly not accepted worldwide. At least not at the moment; Wikipedia will certainly contribute to its popularity. I don't want to needlessly reiterate points from the already finished debate, but this has to be the single worst page move I've seen thus far. GregorB (talk) 11:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, there have been many much worse page moves. – PeeJay 11:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not the majority of Anglophones the world over use "soccer"? Srnec (talk) 05:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but that's only because of the prevalence of the word in the United States. If you ignored the United States, it would be very much more in the favour of "football". – PeeJay 06:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

And...why would we do that?

Of course, you're correct that consensus strongly favors "Association football" as the most suitable name for the article. I strongly supported the move to that title, despite the fact that I'm American and know the sport as "soccer" (which actually is widely used in several countries). —David Levy 07:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I only used it as an example, because there about 300 million Americans, the majority of whom are probably indifferent towards "soccer". Other Anglophone countries, such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or the Republic of Ireland, are quite divided over the use of "football" to refer to association football. This is made evident by the fact that, of the articles about football in each of those countries, only the New Zealand one is located anywhere other than "Association football in ..." – PeeJay 07:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Would you like to start the ball rolling on renaming that New Zealand anomaly please?--ClubOranje^Talk 08:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

What for? – PeeJay 10:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Consistency.--ClubOranje^Talk 13:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, "association football" site:.uk yields 138,000 hits, while soccer site:.uk yields 539,000 hits - Brits appear to know what "soccer" means. I'd say there isn't a country in the world where the term "association football" is more popular than "soccer". Americanism or not, this word is known and used worldwide; jargon or not, this is how the sport is called by many, not how it is supposed to be called or what sounds good to someone. OK, I missed the main naming debate, but I'm pretty sure there'll be a second chance. :) GregorB (talk) 18:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The sport is certainly more widely known by the name "soccer" than "association football" (which is obscure everywhere), but the dominant name (by a large margin) is simply "football", so I agree with the person who said this article should be called Football (XYZ), XYZ to be debated. --Kvaks (talk) 09:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the sport is more widely known by the name football, not just the english word, but many many languages who uses a form of 'foot'+'ball' on that language. FIFA is the International Federation of Association Football, not the International Federation of Soccer. You cannot have a article title with both Football and soccer in it, you can't have one without Football, and as there's not enough support to move it to Football, this is the best possible compromise ← chandler 22:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not being moved again. There's extremely clear consensus that the current title is the least-worst alternative. I do wish people would take the time to read the archives on the subject before feeling that it were essential to repeat arguments made therein themselves for whatever reason. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. This really was debated to death, with every possible angle covered and argument made. So anyone wanting to bring it up again is simply wasting time, and clearly showing to other people that they haven't bothered reading the old discussions. EuroSong ^talk 22:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that American Football be moved to Football (American), Gaelic Football to Football (Gaelic) or Canadian Football to Football (Canadian) as well? Lord Cornwallis (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

PJ said: "Other Anglophone countries, such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or the Republic of Ireland, are quite divided over the use of "football" to refer to association football." Not true. In every case "football" is only used by the strongest followers of the code, some of whom come on here and campaign for pages with logical names (e.g. Soccer in Australia) to be moved to suit their "soccer = football" ideology.

Furthermore, it is unclear whether a majority of ESL/EFL speakers favour British or "American" usage of football. It is possible that they refer to the game as soccer. Grant | Talk 00:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Surely considering football is, in its modern incarnation at any rate, a British (specifically English) game, should the English not have the ability to decide what it is called in their own language? Like it or not English is an English language (not American or Australian) and modern Association Football is an English sport, directly descended from English football rules of the 19th century. You don't see Brits campaigning on here to get the name of American Football changed to Grid-Iron Handball, so why should our wonderful American cousins presume to do the same with our Football? Oh and the argument about everyone in Britain knowing what 'soccer' means, it's true, but I lived in the US for ten years and they all know what Football means when you say it with an English accent, so that is null and void. And one more thing, why do you Americans even care? Few of you even like beautiful game (look at the map on the wiki-page) and even those that do don't play it very well. Why aren't we allowed to name something we invented (in it's modern form) with words from our own language, which we also invented? Call it soccer if you like, but don't force it on the rest of us. We don't all want to be like you nearly as much as you think! User:ManUtd16 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.118.156 (talk) 22:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Come on guys we have been over this and we know all the arguments. Consensus is "Association Football". Let's see if we cn give it a rest. --Michael Johnson (talk) 23:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion I think that the sport should be called soccer association because of how prominent the american sport football is even the EU —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azamiz (talk • contribs) 00:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

That's not a thing. You clearly don't know what you're on about. – PeeJay 00:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Soccer association? LMAO. It's called Association Football and that's the end of it. Otherwise we would have to move the United States page to something like US, USA or America. Just because something is commonly called something doesnt mean that's its proper name. Cls14 (talk) 12:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Grammar mistake in the numismatism section

It says "Soccer have," and I am unable to edit it.... also, should this really be in this article?... perhaps Numismatism? Thanks. 24.96.104.14 (talk) 09:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no such section in the article at this time. I think the reason you are unable to edit it is because you are viewing an old version of the article for some reason. – PeeJay 09:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

rules

"Although players usually use their feet to move the ball around, they may use any part of their bodies other than their hands or arms"

thats not right? headers and chesters are ok

Yes, that's what the statement says. – PeeJay 15:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"when the ball has wholly crossed the touchline"

I think that the word "wholly" should be changed to "completely". (xcrunner31) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcrunner31 (talk • contribs) 20:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

maneuver

maneuver spelled wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.180.74 (talk) 04:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Only if you're not British. Over here, it's "manoeuvre". – PeeJay 08:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically, it should even be "manœuvre", being the French spelling of this French word. Btw, don't bother unleashing your francophobic hatred onto my meant-to-be humorous statement on spelling. It's not worth it. Save it for next time France beats England in a football or a rugby game ;-P. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.14.131 (talk) 12:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically, it's "manoeuvre". The OED says so. Fortunately for you, I'm Welsh, so I have the upper hand when it comes to rugby. – PeeJay 12:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

And just to clarify it quite clearly says at the top of this page, "This article uses British English dialect and spelling. Some terms that are used in it differ from, or are not used in, American English" - so as PeeJay points out, it isn't a spelling mistake.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 14:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Nickname?

On the infobox where it says Nickname, would Footy be a good idea? Seeing that even though it is not a formal name, it is still quite a popular term used for it and WP:FOOTY even redirects to the Wikiproject Football. --Hamster X (talk) 07:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have also added "Futbol" as a nickname, as I have seen that name used quite often by Americans who prefer to say "football" without getting it confused with American football. – PeeJay 08:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds dodgy. Lots of google hits, but it is the name of the game in Spanish, after all. I think "soccer" covers American use of names for the sport. --Kvaks (talk) 09:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

FWIW (not much), I can vouch for having heard fútbol as being not uncommon—at least in the sorts of places where they’d be referring to soccer/football—among English speakers, although it’s got a jokey/slang-y connotation to it. More something someone would refer to in passing—“watching fútbol”—as opposed to a term you’d use throughout a conversation. —Wiki Wikardo 01:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Footy seems to mean rugby league these days as much as in England as it does mean out in Australia. I've not heard anyone call football 'footy' either in everyday life or in the media for a number of years.Londo06 10:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

People hardly ever refer to rugby league as "footy" over here in the UK. You may get a few people calling it "rugby" (as opposed to rugby union), but most people call it "league". If you refer to "footy" in the UK, most people would assume you're talking about association football. – PeeJay 10:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it in the South of England no-one has said footy and meant football in a social context, on television, print media or radio that I have been involved in, watched, read or listened to. Fair dinkum it's still there, but I would say footy as a nickname is very much a kids nickname for the game. Else I am having a kick-about or organised game in the wrong areas, because I hear the term 'footy' used alot by English people, and they are talking about rugby league.Londo06 10:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you live in an Australian community, perchance? – PeeJay 10:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't say I do. Not disputing its existence, I have noticed it usage waning for football. If someone wants a game of football, or asks if I'm playing five-a-side they normally say are you coming down for a kick-about, are you playing tonight or use the full word. It's still there, just not normally as strong as say when I was in school.Londo06 10:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Up in my neck of the woods it's almost always fitba, but I'd be immensely sceptical of claims that the term "footy" were generally used to refer to a sport other than the beautiful game elsewhere in the UK right now. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Well footy sounds so childish and it would be very akward to say I am going to watch a game of footy or i am goin g to go out an play some footy would you like to come. In conclusion I think that it should either be called football, futbol, or soccer. Azamiz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azamiz (talk • contribs) 00:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

People say those exact phrases all the time in the UK and Australia (though in Oz it's usually referring to Aussie Rules). – PeeJay 00:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Not only grass

"It is a football variant played on a rectangular grass or artificial turf field" It is also played on gravel fields. I know this. --212.247.27.185 (talk) 19:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Not professionally. FIFA rules state that football must be played on a field of grass or artificial turf. – PeeJay 19:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Olympic overage players

The article states that "In the past the Olympics have allowed a restricted number of over-age players per team;[44] but that practice will cease in the 2008 Olympics." Well in actual fact the practice is certainly continuing for this year's Olympics: Mascherano gets Olympics call-up and furthermore the source provided in the article [1] does not state that the practice of having overage players will end at all, so I believe further citation is needed. Roobens (talk) 20:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, 2008 is the last Summer Olympics that will feature players over the age of 23. The statement is poorly worded, I will give you that, but the practice is set to end after the 2008 Olympics. – PeeJay 18:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Nickname

at the begining of the article it says 'more commonly known as football or soccer'. Since soccer is a word used in a handful of english speaking countries it would be advisable to edit this statement and say something like "more commonly known as football (or soccer in a few english speaking countries)". Putting the words football and soccer on the same footing would imply that both words are interchangeable which is something users do not do. It took David Beckham deliberate efforts when he moved to MLS in the USA to no longer use the word football. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.253.4.21 (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In terms of the population of the Earth that speaks English as a first language, I think you will find that "soccer" is much more prevalent as a nickname for association football than "football" is. The Americans, the South Africans, the Australians, the New Zealanders and the Irish all have a large section of the population that call it "soccer". In fact, it's probably only the UK that mostly calls it "football", and even then it's not unanimous. – PeeJay 18:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That may be so, but the game was started here and is known as football, and football it should remain. I'm not so sure about the Irish calling it soccer, anytime I've been there I have heard it referred to as football. Jack forbes (talk) 21:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Or you could just accept that both names have a roughly equal standing in the global vernacular... – PeeJay 00:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Or we could just make a pointed effort not to get dragged into this again. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realise it had already been fully discussed, so I'll refrain from dragging anything up, after all, its not life or death. Psst, It'll always be just football to me ;) Jack forbes (talk) 11:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It was Britain which came up with the name "soccer" to begin with. How quickly they forget.75.41.68.160 (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

True, but it is OUR language. --92.18.77.30 (talk) 05:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia is a helpful tool to uphold the name of our sport, football. That is the official name of the sport and it should be consistently used in Wikipedia. Rather than worry about confusing Americans, we should teach them the proper name of the sport of football. I vote for as few referencces to the other word as possible. Their misnaming of our sport is the main reason it is not popular in their country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.129.185.52 (talk) 09:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's a novel idea, try reading the article. After the preamble, it's referred to as football throughout (even though statements like "Football is governed internationally by the Fédération Internationale de Football Association" causes the brow to furrow, as only one type of football is) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.192.244 (talk) 10:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Was it always called Football? If so, where, how and why did it come to be known as Soccer in some countries? One main reason that it will not be referred to as 'Football' in Australia is because we already have 3 other games we call 'Football'. 'Football' to me(in N.S.W) means something totally different to someone from Victoria and means 'Association football/Soccer' to neither of us. The Muss (talk) 11:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What you lot in most of NSW and Queensland usually refer to as football, should be called rugby. But then you gave up that battle decades ago and allowed the union mob to use it as their own. --92.18.77.30 (talk) 05:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Am I out of date?

A question for all football fans. Am I out of date calling the lines either side of the goals the bye line? And does anyone else remember the term bye kick? I always remember the goal line being the line between the posts, but then, as I said, maybe I'm a bit out of date. Jack forbes (talk) 01:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

For Byline/Byeline see Association football pitch#Other terms, basically goal line is the official term for the whole 'end of pitch' line from corner flag to corner flag. The term goal line is used exclusively in the current FIFA Laws of the Game (pages 6-10). IIRC byekick/bykick referred to what is now known as a goal kick (or even place kick in some areas) and according to google is still used in some parts of Scotland. 86.21.74.40 (talk) 09:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm sure every country has their own unofficial terms. Even the names of the players positions have changed. At the risk of boring everyone, these are the positions when I was playing: Goalkeeper, Right-back, Left-back, centre-half, Right-half, Left-half, Outside-right, Outside-left, Inside-right, Inside-left and Centre-forward. Those were certainly the positions in Scotland at the time, which is not to say it was the same everywhere. Jack forbes (talk) 13:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Association football

Why is it called this. NO ONE calls it Association football. It should be moved to soccer since the majority of english speakers call it "soccer".--S00porz2 (talk) 06:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Association Football is it's legal name. And as to whether a majority of English speakers call it "soccer", that is debatable. I call it soccer, and this is football to me, but there are many contributors to this page that would debate this with you. In any case the point has been thoroughly debated in the past, and consensus is Association Football. --Michael Johnson (talk) 06:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a hell of a lot more people call it football then soccer. "Soccer" isn't even a real word, just an abbreviation and IMO any mention of the term should be removed from the article; I know thats not going to happen but still. Going back to numbers, in India it is mainly called "football", as is the case in "Europe", and last I checked their were a couple more people in these parts than in the US. Jasca Ducato (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether the people of India and continental Europe can be largely termed "English speakers", at least as far as their first language goes, is debatable. Further just because a word is "made-up" does not mean it is not a "proper word". For instance "television" is a made-up word, more recent than soccer. As I said this is an argument people can go back and forward with for years, a decision has been made here to use the legal, formal name of the game, so let's drop this baiting. --Michael Johnson (talk) 22:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the article is fine as it is. I do see that the name soccer was not officially used until 1945 as pointed out in the United States Soccer Federation article. Of course, it may have been used casually long before that. Jack forbes (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Jack, the word soccer originated in the UK in the 19th century and was used in some of the Aussie organisation names in that century. Other names used in Australia in that period included English, South British, and British Football. I guess they might be options for the article's name too...<VBG> --Michael Johnson (talk) 23:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest providing a relevant link or two to archived discussion about this topic and close this section now. Arguing about this will go nowhere. I 100% agree with the current name for the record. LonelyMarble (talk) 23:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected Michael. I also am happy with the title. I won't worry too much about it as I watch Celtic win tomorrow. ;) Jack forbes (talk) 23:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that Assosciation Football is its true name as the FIFA, UEFA, OFC, CONCACAF and CONMEBOL websites do not even use the term. The first section of the wikipedia naming conventions states "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." Aren't the websites of the worldwide governing bodies of football a verifiable source?

Furthermore and English speaker would be more familiar with ther term "football" . If ofcourse by English-speaker, you mean any person speaking English. And English is referred to as the global lingua franca.

Can someome please explain to me why 'the page has been labeled as Association Football. Googling "Association Football" brought up only a mere 4 million results. Whilst googling "football" yielded 500,000,000. Ofcourse American Football could contribute to this... but the difference is still too large to be ignored. Afterall, googling American Football brought up a mere 23,000,000.

I have never, ever, ever, ever heard it being called association football. And, the English-speaking countries who refer to it as soccer wouldn't have heard of the name either. Also, the only way I will acknowledge with the term 'Association Football' is if someone gives me a reason why it is called so. American Football is called so because it is played predominantly in the US. Very well. But you'd be hard pressed to find the reason for the Association in Association Football. Pcacmar (talk) 02:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm replying on Pcacmar's talk page. Please let's not go over all this again. --Michael Johnson (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Michael - you are very sensible. I do wish that people would actually read archived debates before jumping in and trying to open up old (and now very boring) discussions. EuroSong ^talk 20:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I’m pretty sure the current name contravenes WP:NCCN. —Wiki Wikardo 01:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Please see the discussions linked in the banner box at the top of the page, the main question is - which is the common name? Is it football? if it is football - is it better to have football as an overview of all uses of the name? If it's the term most used in countries with English as a language - do you mean English as a spoken language or official language (both answers favour different titles for the article). If it is soccer, is this the term used in India (the country uses Both BrEng and Hindi as it's official languages and is the largest official English speaking nation or is there some other reference showing it is the most widely used term. If it is football, is there a neutral reference stating it is the term used above any other? Nanonic (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Do the users who post comments such as this (entire section) ever bother to read ANY archives of the talk page at all? I swear that as soon as this particular discussion gets archived, someone else, who thinks he is the first person to have noticed it, will start another one .. repeat ad infinitum. Up until a year or so ago, this article was called football (soccer), and the exact same arguments were occurring then. No matter what the article is called, someone will complain. I don't think "association football" breaks naming conventions as it is the common name "football", with an additional descriptor "association" added to disambiguate it. -- Chuq (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should add a {{FAQ}} at the top of this page, and explain why the current title was adopted and what were its arguments. Eklipse (talk) 10:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article called association football when football is ;) Jack forbes (talk) 18:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I demand that we call the sport Supi-kobo-queegiibwa. And yes, I'm serious about it. —Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 10:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)