Talk:Autism/Archive 6

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Neurodiversity is a more inclusive and scientifically accurate way of viewing autism.

The word "disorder" is stigmatizing and dehumanizing. It implies that people with autism are broken and need to be fixed. This is not the case. People with autism are simply different.

I believe that the word "disorder" should be removed from the Wikipedia article on autism. This would be a more inclusive and respectful way to describe this condition. GreenWolverine (talk) 15:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

DSM defines it as "autism spectrum disorder", thus the lead says it as such. --WikiLinuz (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles must follow the relevant scholarship, they cannot, cannot lead. If medical orthodoxy calls something a disorder this has to be reflected in Wikipedia articles. There is no useful discussion to be had about this, it is just a fact. BTW I am a diagnosed autistic and I am way, way more 'ordered' than most allistics! Urselius (talk) 16:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

❤️ it's a shame it's like that, is there a way to bring it to a vote or make an edit that mentioned that as Neurodiversity in addition? even in the medical community that diagnoses autistics today there is wide recognition of neurodiversity. GreenWolverine (talk) 16:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you know how Wikipedia works. Please review the links on your welcome message on your talkpage. --WikiLinuz (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

and maybe update the data & statistics, in the article it says 1 in 100 where the current data(2020) about 1 in 36 children has been identified with autism spectrum condition. GreenWolverine (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

That data is all in Epidemiology of autism. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

but why in the article the data have to be incorrect? GreenWolverine (talk) 17:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Not all scholarship relevant to autism is medical! We really ought to make sure we are taking on board scholarly insights from sociology, anthropology, and parts of psychology that do not assume medicalisation is the only appropriate lens for this sort of thing. Oolong (talk) 10:36, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a disorder. It has disordering characteristics that generally cause problems for people who have it. Removing the word disorder is not only inconsistent with the literature and DSM, it's harmful.

Making people feel like they don't have a disorder, that in fact their lives are just as good and easy as others, is not helpful or accurate. Please stop this nonsense. It's not empathetic, it's just pathetic. 103.14.70.178 (talk) 09:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m a person and student with autism and I usually try to hide the fact. It makes me very insecure because people start treating me worse, I’m pretty sure it’s a subconscious thing because many of these people think autism turns you into an aggressive, dumb, and annoying monster. I would really like it if the word “disorder” got removed. many people who are more affected by it can live happier lives than us. I’ve hear stories of people who are more affected by it are using computers to communicate instead of speaking and what they write considering how they look on the outside is ridiculous! Please change it. 82.7.61.20 (talk) 08:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

"because people start treating me worse" Worse as in ridiculing you or as in physically abusing you? Dimadick (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

They stop talking to me and some even start ridiculing me like you said, luckily it’s not physical though. 82.7.61.20 (talk) 20:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to suggest that there should be a new term specifically for verbally communicative autistic individuals. like Asperger was in the past (a new word maybe because the argue that he was involved with Nazism). The current language often fails to accurately represent the wide spectrum of experiences and abilities within the autistic community. A new term could help in better acknowledging and respecting the unique challenges and strengths of those who are verbally communicative, differentiating their experiences from those who might have different communication needs. This change could contribute significantly to reducing stigma and enhancing understanding, allowing for a more nuanced appreciation of the diversity within the autism spectrum. GreenWolverine (talk) 06:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm autistic and I disagree. First of all, it's literally called "Autism Spectrum Disorder" and as long as that'd the official name, I think it's better if we use it. Secondly, autism can be genuinely disabling-- I know it has been for me-- and it's wrong to hide that. I've struggled a lot because I'm autistic and saying that it's not a disorder is, in its own way, invalidating. Additionally, the reason that Asperger Syndrome was removed from the DSM-V was because they realized that there is no actual difference between those with higher support needs and lower support needs other than how much support they need. Also, it's not up to Wikipedia to propose changes to the language that should be used to describe autistic people; we're here to report facts, not make them. I do, however, think that there needs to be a bit more discussion about different levels of support needs in the article because it is very important to point out that autistic people aren't a monolith and that we all struggle with different things. "Level 1 Autistic" may be the term you're looking for. Queenofconfusion (talk) 00:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Intonation in autism: mmhm, uhm, silent pauses

The following findings could be integrated in the section on communication (from https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/404 Wehrle, Simon. 2023. Conversation and intonation in autism: A multi-dimensional analysis. (Studies in Laboratory Phonology 14). Berlin: Language Science Press. DOI: 10.5281/zenodo.10069004)

In particular, length of turns and filled pauses (uh, uhm) are not different between ASD and non-ASD, but backchannels such as "okay" and "mmhm" show differences. The duration of silent pauses is different as well.

I will not edit the page myself as it is already quite long and complex. The relevant summaries of the findings are given below in case other users are interested. Jasy jatere (talk) 12:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Research on turn-taking (the organisation of who speaks when in conversation) in ASD is limited, with most studies claiming a tendency for longer silent gaps in ASD. No clear overall difference in turn-timing between the ASD and the control group was found in the data under study. There was, however, a clear difference between groups specifically in the earliest stages of dialogue, where ASD dyads produced considerably longer silent gaps than controls.

Backchannels (listener signals such as mmhm or okay) have barely been investigated in ASD to date. The current analysis shows that autistic speakers produced fewer backchannels per minute (particularly in the early stages of dialogue), and that backchannels were less diverse prosodically and lexically. Filled pauses (hesitation signals such as uhm and uh) in ASD have been the subject of a handful of previous studies, most of which claim that autistic speakers produced fewer uhm tokens (specifically). It is shown that filled pauses were produced at an identical rate in both groups and that there was an equivalent preference of uhm over uh. ASD speakers differed only in the prosodic realisation of filled pauses. It is further shown that autistic speakers produced more long silent (within-speaker) pauses than controls.

Suggestions from Gizempsy

Hi, Im student from Uskudar University. I edit this article Autism spectrumas an assignment for my course Biotechnology in Neurosciences. I already completed Wikipedia training modules to be proficient in Wikipedia editing. I would appreciate any support. Best wishes, Gizempsy Gizempsy (talk) 11:45, 1 January 2024 (UTC). ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) is a complex neurodevelopmental disorder that emerges in early childhood and is characterized by indicators such as communication problems, repetitive behaviors, and limited areas of interest. Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) encompasses a complex spectrum of disorders that is linked not only to genetic but also to epigenetic factors. Essentially, it is a developmental disorder that affects the individual's neurological system. I am in favor of adding the title "Cell Therapies" to the ‘’Management’’ section of the Autism Spectrum article. It is observed that cell therapy is widely used in many neurological disorders today. Hematopoietic stem cell therapy has been indicated to extend the lifespan of children with ASD by preventing neurodegeneration. According to a study mentioned in this article, significant changes in EEG spectra were reported two months after a single intravenous autologous umbilical cord blood infusion was administered to each of the 25 children. Fetal stem cell transplantation via intravenous and subcutaneous injections in autistic patients aged 3-15 has been noted to enhance social skills in the treatment group without any adverse effects. In a group of 37 children with ASD, the transplant group showed a reduction in stereotypical and agitated behaviors and higher scores on the autism rating scale. It is stated that research is ongoing to investigate the effectiveness of mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) and their by-products, derived from adipose tissues and umbilical cord tissues, in the treatment of neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer's disease and neurodevelopmental disorders like Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). Stem cells with regenerative capabilities have shown positive outcome criteria in the treatment of ASD In the conducted study, it is indicated that nine out of ten clinical trials on cell therapies for individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) yielded positive results without significant side effects. The importance of the gap junction-mediated cell-cell interactions between cerebral endothelium and transplanted cells was observed in both BM-MNCs (bone marrow mononuclear cells) and MSC (mesenchymal stem cell) transplantation. These novel findings are stated to provide a new paradigm for cell therapy in ASD. In recent years, both preclinical and clinical evidence has been found indicating that stem cell therapy is not only safe but also improves the behaviors of individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Therefore, stem cell therapy has gained increasing support as a potential treatment option for individuals with ASD. Considering the limitations and promising sedative effects of cellular therapies in ASD treatment, it has been explained that more comprehensive research and large-scale studies will be needed to obtain conclusive results. The analysis of factors influencing the therapeutic functions of stem cells, such as stem cell types, administration route and dosage, and activity mechanism, is considered crucial in conducting clinical research.

If autism is 'cured', will that not do away with people like Elon Musk, Anthony Hopkins and Dan Ackroyd? Not to mention the probability that such luminaries as Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, Picasso, James Joyce and Mozart were also autistic, and made huge contributions to science, culture and art. Urselius (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

References

How is this possible?

Autism was first described in 1943, but the original description isn't the same as what autism is today. Sources still state it is the same disorder we just learned more about it, but how is that possible? How can he discover a disorder that actually exist but incorrectly state what it is? What happened to the actual thing he was describing? Does it now have a different name or did it never exist? What are the odds that he came up with the actual name for a disorder but applied it to the wrong thing?

Or if the diagnosis was wrong, why was the term autism reused for a different disorder, but still treated as if it's the same disorder, just with updated findings?

Malaria has been known since ancient times, it was believed to be caused by 'miasmas', 'bad air' originating from marshy areas. In the 1890s it was discovered that malaria was the result of a parasite in the blood and that it was transmitted by the bite of anopheline mosquitoes. The disease was exactly the same through history, but its cause was wrongly attributed for centuries. Medicine changes over time, including psychiatry. This is not surprising, I fail to understand your quandary. Urselius (talk) 17:44, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Your Malaria example isn't remotely the same. In your example malaria was the same illness in both cases the only difference was what caused it. In my case the term autism was applied to symptoms that are not the same symptoms of autism today. In 1943 Autism was the "inward self-absorbed aspects of schizophrenia in adults" The description is totally different. It's not the same thing with a newly discovered origin, nor is it different symptoms of the same cause. Like if in 1943 Autism was defined exactly as it was today but said the cause was believed to be a defect with XYZ and we know now that not to be the case, then there wouldn't be the same problem. Your comparison would be that they called completely different set of symptoms malaria, but modern doctors use the term malaria to mean what it does today, and treat it as the same thing just with a better understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:90C8:503:BE18:3C9F:FEC9:31EA:DC52 (talk) 05:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

You have just said that the definition of the causes of autism in 1943 were misascribed to "inward self-absorbed aspects of schizophrenia in adults". That is an attributed cause, not the symptoms. The symptoms noted in 1943 were largely the same as the symptoms noted in today's diagnostic manuals - difficulties in communication and restricted/repetitive interests. Therefore, the 'disorder' of autism is the same and has remained the same, but the ascribed cause - then schizophrenia, now neurodevelopmental - is different. My malaria paradigm is therefore exactly apposite and cogent. Urselius (talk) 09:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Grandfathered in?

According to an article by Ferris Jabr The new DSM-5 criteria for ASD will make it more difficult for people to be diagnosed with ASD to receive treatment, but people that are already diagnosed will continue to receive treatment. Basically saying that you're grandfathered into a disorder instead of being previously wrongly diagnosed? If DSMs are updated to the most current and accurate knowledge of a disorder, why would people that were previously wrongly diagnosed still receive treatment for something they don't have?

There is no treatment for autism as such. Urselius (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The DSM-5 is not new, it dates to 2013. It did away with Asperger's Syndrome as a formal diagnosis. The DSM-5 has definitely not reversed the increase in the rate of autism diagnosis and there has been no evidence that it has affected the rates of treatment for comorbidities of autism - as I said above, autism itself is untreatable. Urselius (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Prosody

I find the statement in this article "At least half of autistic children have unusual prosody" inaccurate and should either be removed or the source replaced with an accurate one. I reviewed the article sourced in full. It states that while research in this area is promising, there is no clear single indicator of ASD in speech yet. I should mention that my bachelor's is in Linguistics and prosody is one of my areas of particular interest. While I personally believe we will eventually find or may have already found and defined an indicator of ASD in speech, the article being sourced (which is a meta analysis) does not provide sufficient evidence on its own to support this.

Possible suggested edit?

Recent research has investigated a possible link between ASD and non-standard prosody.

I can't think of what I would put after that right now. Maybe something about the state of current research and that it's promising. I'd like to do some more research myself in the interim first.

https://pure.au.dk/ws/files/101709535/046565.full.pdf Alderius (talk) 12:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The source seems to me to support the current wording (emphasis mine):

From its earliest characterizations, ASD has been associated with peculiar tones of voice and disturbances of prosody (Asperger, 1944; Goldfarb, Braunstein, & Lorge, 1956; Kanner, 1943; Pronovost, Wakstein, & Wakstein, 1966; Simmons & Baltaxe, 1975). Although 70-80% of individuals with ASD develop functional spoken language, at least half of the ASD population displays early atypical acoustic patterns (Paul et al., 2005a; Rogers et al., 2006; Shriberg et al., 2001), which persist while other aspects of language improve (Baltaxe & Simmons, 1985; Depape, Chen, Hall, & Trainor, 2012). These atypical acoustic patterns have been qualitatively described as flat, monotonous, variable, sing-songy, pedantic, robot- or machine-like, hollow, stilted or exaggerated and inappropriate (Amorosa, 1992; Baltaxe, 1981; Depape, et al., 2012; Järvinen-Pasley, Peppé, King-Smith, & Heaton, 2008; Lord, Rutter, & Le Couteur, 1994). Such distinctive vocal characteristics are one of the earliest-appearing markers of a possible ASD diagnosis (Oller et al., 2010; Paul, Fuerst, Ramsay, Chawarska, & Klin, 2011; Warlaumont, Richards, Gilkerson, & Oller, 2014).

While the source does state "We could not identify any single feature that could yet serve the role of a marker", that isn't what the text of the article suggests either, no? Tollens (talk) 06:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Zippybonzo | talk | contribs (they/them) 11:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Differences vs. Deficits

Recent changes included language to highlight that autistic people show differences in "reciprocal social communication [...,] social interaction, verbal and nonverbal communication", though this change was reverted because it was "POV writing". Personally, I would argue that "differences" has a lesser perspective than "deficits", which places a judgment on how people should communicate, indicating that autistic people communicate poorly. Proponents of the neurodiversity paradigm have argued against such deficit language for multiple reasons. On the other hand, nobody is arguing that there are differences in communication styles between autistic and non-autistic people. As such, wouldn't using the word "deficit" instead of "difference" have more POV issues than vice versa? (ping @ATC) Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Autism is mainly characterized by difficulties with social interaction (and communication and by restricted or repetitive patterns of thought and behavior). In DSM-5 it is,

Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder

To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).

• Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
  • Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
  • Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
  • Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.

— https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

While I generally sympathize with the proponents of neurodiversity, I think we should adhere to WP:NPOV in Wikipedia and state what the medical literature actually characterizes autism as. Changing definitions for perceived judgment or stigmatization is not a valid reason. --WikiLinuz (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

WikiLinuz: The DSM is utilized specifically to identify disorders and medical conditions. If this page were titled "Autism spectrum disorder", then it would be understandable to state, "The DSM utilizes the following criteria to diagnose ASD".

However, this is a general page to describe autism, which many people do not see as a medical diagnosis but rather as a way of being. For instance, one autistic scholar defines autism as "a genetically-based human neurological variant" that is "characterized by particularly high levels of synaptic connectivity and responsiveness", which "tends to make the autistic individual’s subjective experience more intense and chaotic than that of non-autistic individuals". She further states, "Autism is a developmental phenomenon, meaning that it begins in utero and has a pervasive influence on development, on multiple levels, throughout the lifespan. Autism produces distinctive, atypical ways of thinking, moving, interaction, and sensory and cognitive processing" (Walker, 2021, "What is Autism?").

I'm not indicating that the entire page needs to be written from the perspective of the neurodiversity paradigm; that would, after all, be a POV problem. However, the first paragraph is currently written in alignment with pathology paradigms that purely view autism as a medical diagnosis. If we're trying to be neutral, I think it would be beneficial to use a more neutral, less judgmental term when describing what autism is. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 21:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Basically, as Walker concludes, "To describe autism as a disorder represents a value judgment rather than a scientific fact." Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 22:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Difficulties = deficits. The core features (psychological phenotypes) of an individual on the autism spectrum are still social challenges (aka deficits). It's not as if autistic individuals would have no difficulty communicating with other autistic individuals and only have difficulty when communicating with non-autistic individuals (some argue maybe to a lesser extent, but that's not relevant here). [...] view autism as a medical diagnosis - Autism is still a diagnosed condition, meaning only a trained medical professional can "tell" (that is, diagnose) whether a person is autistic or not, which makes it, a medical diagnosis. After the diagnosis, they can view their condition/difficulties/traits as a difference (as in, part of neurodiversity and self-acceptance) or deficit (seek accommodations and therapies (Autism therapies) on areas that affect their functioning) - but that doesn't affect the fact that the condition itself is diagnosed using certain parameters of social deficits (mainly) and other traits. WP:SUBJECT of this article is about a neurodevelopmental disorder. It is recognized as a developmental disability in many countries (such as Canada, United States, UK, etc.). And why exactly should Walker's opinion be given undue weight here? Are you quoting from a peer-reviewed publication? --WikiLinuz (talk) 00:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Walker's definition has been provided as a definition of autism that does not view it through the medical model. This definition has been used in peer-reviewed sources (e.g., [1], [2]). To address some of your points:

1. It's not as if autistic individuals would have no difficulty communicating with other autistic individuals and only have difficulty when communicating with non-autistic individuals. On this Wikipedia page, we have provided evidence that "autistic–autistic interactions are as effective in information transfer as interactions between non-autistics are, and that communication breaks down only between autistics and non-autistics". That is, autistic individuals communicate with other autistic individuals fine. Autistic individuals can also have great conversations with non-autistic people.

2. Only a trained medical professional can "tell" (that is, diagnose) whether a person is autistic or not. Even the American Psychiatric Association recognizes that medical practitioners often fail to diagnose people, particularly women and people of color (see also [3], [4]). They're still autistic regardless of whether a doctor can figure it out. This is of particular issue for individuals who can function in a society and thus, don't display the typical "deficits". It doesn't change how they process sensory inputs. This feels on par with saying someone is "cured" if therapies make it possible for someone to thrive. They're still autistic.

3. Once again, everyone agrees there are differences in communication, etc. Not everyone agrees about the language of deficit. "Difference" can mean deficit; it can also just mean doing things differently. As such, it feels to me like it would be more neutral to use the word "difference" than "deficit". Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Studies (like the one cited) focus specifically on "information transfer", which is a narrow aspect of communication. Autism is characterized by broader social communication deficits that go beyond mere exchanging information. Even if autistic individuals can share information more effectively with each other, they may still have difficulties with other aspects of social interactions, like for example, (1) reading and responding to non-verbal cues, (2) understanding and expressing emotions, (3) reciprocating in back-and-forth conversations, (4) maintaining appropriate eye contact and body language, etc. And autism is also a spectrum disorder, so while some autistic individuals may find communication easier with other autistic individuals, those with more severe social impairments may still struggle significantly, regardless of the communication partner's neurotype.

Again, the subject of the article is about a neurodevelopmental disorder which is clinically defined as deficits (as explained previosuly). Humanities or social sciences sources cannot be used to override medical definitions in these articles, as sources must meet WP:MEDRS (medical claims, that is, diagnostic criteria or presentation of a condition, must be sourced from medical sources). --WikiLinuz (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

To further add to this point, most neurodevelopmental and mental disorders, and learning disabilities, could be considered a "difference". For example, ADHD is a deficit in executive function. You could say that it's just differences in executive functioning, but on an objective scale, these impairments go beyond mere differences in executive functioning and represent deficits in abilities that are considered essential for adaptive functioning in the environment/modern society.

This applies to pretty much everything, anxiety disorders (differences in how individuals perceive threat), bipolar disorder (differences in how individuals experience and regulate their moods and energy levels), schizophrenia (differences in how individuals perceive and process reality), OCD (differences in how individuals experience intrusive thoughts and the urges to perform repetitive behaviors), etc.

These are of course differences, but these differences arise from a deficit (maladaptation). Which is why it is more accurate (and in-line with current medical literature) to use the word "deficit" instead of "difference". --WikiLinuz (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Frequency

This is described as "1 in 100 children". Autistic children grow into autistic adults so surely "1 in 100" is more accurate. Polymath uk (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

that could be the case but Wikipedia should not reach any conclusion that isn't explicitly stated by the sources. The source for that statement is this fact statement by the UN: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/autism-spectrum-disorderswhich clearly says "About 1 in 100 children has autism."

You can read more about this policy in WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR Theaxeisaxe (talk) 11:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

"About 1 in 100 children has autism." I did not realize that it was relatively rare. Does the source provide any statistical data? Dimadick (talk) 22:33, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

My brother in Christ, it is in the link that he sent Eldaniay (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Should “neurodevelopmental disorder and disability” be added?

Many sources, including the CDC and the National Autistic Society (UK), state it as such. It is also a disability from a medical and legal standpoint. PicoMath (talk) 00:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Special interest (autism)

It's been started by a new editor. Notifying in case you'd be interested in providing feedback or helping out. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

List of Newsgroups Grouped By 'Autism Centricity'

Proposal: Add a section to "ASD in the media" that shows all historic and defunct organizations that cover autism and the many metrics that they can be 'graded' by.

Why? : Newsgroups that focus on covering ASD (or that spend a fraction of their time, money, and coverage on the topic of ASD) are a part of the media that we consume. Therefore, a page that is focused on "ASD in the media" is obliged to include a list documenting some of these organizations in some level of detail.

Definitions

'Austism Centricity': how focused a news organization is on the topic of ASD (for simplicity's sake, we could just include organizations that claim to focus on ASD or organizations that have a massive amount of content on ASD (comparative to the content they have on other topics) and have (or have had) a name that intentionally references some part of ASD (See spectrumnews.org as an example).

Newsgroup: any group that assumes/claims a role in the distribution of (factual) information (although it might be interesting to include and the amount of attention paid to ASD by satirical news networks)

Other Potential Solutions

- A wikipedia page/list of all groups that claim to 'dispense news', sorted by their primary foci and every other metric that we care to sort by.

- Another page that would categorize newsgroups by their coverage of and focus on ASD.

Thanks for reading this. This is my first time joining a talk channel on Wikipedia besides 2 minor edits I made on two other articles that I wanted to appends reasons for those edits to. I hope that this suggestion is decent and actionable, and that this did not read terribly. My reason for suggesting this was that I found this group called spectrumnews.org and their about page seemed pretty terrible. Naturally, I looked to Wikipedia for answers and was met with nothing but a linkless mention to this group in a disambiguation page for spectrum news.

If anything I wrote here was downright terrible, please feel free to let me know. If this falls into the category of original research, please let me know. Sorry if this was a bad 'idea commit'. In the case that this is a bad 'idea commit', please know that I did not intent for it to be so. Robitium (talk) 17:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I skimmed this a little bit but it seems (great) (wonderful), I would most likely wouldn't add much since there is this already here, as well is this here and some other articles that are similar. So I would add that "main article here" thing. But I'll leave it to more experienced editors than me about this. Tonkarooson (talk) 01:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

There has to be greater diversity of gender, ethnicity and age ranges in the pictures

Autism is not a diagnosis explicit to children; children grow up into adults and many children are also unidentified until well into adulthood. All the pictures except one are pictures of young boys below the age of 3 years old; all but one picture is of a white person. Furthermore, none of the pictures show groups of autistics together or provide examples of autism activism in practice. While Temple Grandin is a known public speaker on autism, and it's great that she at least counters the overall image the article implies to be a diagnosis for young white boys, she's also a very stereotypical example that not everyone can or will relate to. There are better examples of famous autistic people than Temple Grandin that also convey the broader range of autism as a spectrum among people.

I would also advocate to change or remove the box of how to identify autism, because it seems to be explicitly written on how to identify it in children i.e. lining up toys, not engaging in pretend play, despite other portions of the article trying to remain age neutral.

Also, this article is too damn long in general and should be broken up or reorganized. Finally, remove the Autism Speaks logotype as an example of an autistic representation logo, since the organization is highly controversial and it's better to dedicate a separate article to explain what they are. Entr0pic08 (talk) 18:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. -- NotCharizard ^🗨 23:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Failed edit

I'm trying to publish an edit but it's not working with an error message saying, "Unable to determine wikitext upload result." What is this and what does it mean? Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 00:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I got the edit but not the reference Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 05:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Request to change the word "symptoms" to "traits" in infobox

Autism Spectrum Disorder is not a disease or illness and I feel like this should be changed in any way possible. I think adding a new template (if that can happen) named "traits" would be better for medical diagnosis that are similar to Autism. Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 03:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the word "disorder" from the infobox title, so it matches the article title.

Per the link from the word "Symptoms" in the infobox ({{Infobox medical condition}}), with my emphasis here:

Signs and symptoms are the observed or detectable signs, and experienced symptoms of an illness, injury, or condition.

Symptoms are not limited to disease or illness, so I do not think any change is required. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I never had a problem with the word "disorder". Autism is also not a disease or illness, and most people with Autism (including me) prefer the word "traits" over "symptoms". It could also give the perspective that Autism is a bad thing.

I'm not trying to make this a big issue, I just wanted to make this article feel more friendly, since this can be a sensitive subject to be discussed, and there's some controversy too. Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 02:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to change or remove the infobox image

Hi all. This is something I'd normally be bold about, but because there were two previous inconclusive discussions about this (1 and 2) and because I'm not sure what else I'd put, I'm proposing this here, hopefully with a defintive consensus. I feel like the current image is far from representative enough of ASD to be there and this is for multiple reasons. All children like (and are encouraged) to stack things up; a child stacking up objects in what could be a perfectly neurotypical situation is, to me, not the best image to be the most prominent one in the article. This trait feels way too specific in an article that's about a spectrum. Besides, this trait is far from the most significant, prevalent or relevant one for autism. The image could still be used in its context. Just not in the infobox.
There seems to be a consensus that "any image is better than no image", so the problem of what image to put in its place arises. Some of the previous propositions suggested using an image with an identifiable person, apparently violating Commons' rule that "Images must not unfairly (...) demean the subject". I feel like that's reasonable. So that leaves us with more generic images. File:Autistic Mind 2.png has been suggested. Me, I'd adopt the infinity rainbow. I think both are good choices.
I'm glad to head what people have to say about this. Let's try to reach a consensus this time because, to be honest, I feel like the current image is a really inadequate one. Rkieferbaum (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I do not support the use of File:Autistic Mind 2.png, as it is nothing more than clip art. The infinity rainbow seems like a good choice if you feel we absolutely must have an image. Mind you that in articles, and in infoboxes, images are not mandatory. If there is not a good image, there is no need to have a placeholder or unsatisfactory image. I do agree that the existing image is unsatisfactory, as it is, as you say, not necessarily indicative of a pathology. Kimen8 (talk) 19:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The File:Autistic Mind 2.png is not really useful in representing the condition. I agree that current image of a child stacking up stuff is not a good representation of autism (it is also potentially misleading and stereotyping).

It is very hard to find real-life or graphic representation for autism, unlike other conditions like bipolar disorder or anxiety disorder for example. But we could have a graphical representation of autism that lists core deficits seen in autism with varying "intensities" or "shades" (this is why the rainbow is commonly used).

So the idea is this, as per DSM-5, individuals with autism have difficulties in two main domains:

• A: Social communication and interaction difficulties
  • A1: Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity
  • A2: Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction
  • A3: Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships
• B: Restricted, Repetitive Patterns of Behavior, Interests, or Activities
  • B1: Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (example "lining up toys", echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases)
  • B2: Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior
  • B3: Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus
  • B4: Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment

To be diagnosed with ASD, the individual must exhibit both A and B, but they can have varying difficulties in the subset of criteria A1, A2, A3, and B1, B2, B3, B4.

For example, one person with autism may have severe social difficulties (let's say 0.8 on scale of 1 for A1, and 0.5 in A2, but may have 0 in A3) and for B, may have severe repetitive motions (say 0.8 for B1), sameness (0.7 on B2), but may or may not have other two criteria. Regardless, if they anyway meet A and B, it is generally sufficient.

So we can have each color for the two main domains with shades (representing intensities) and each color for the individual criteria within A and B, I think this is probably a better representation autism. A image that comes close to this representation that I could find on the internet are this and this. I'm not good in graphic design so someone else could create something similar and upload to commons. --WikiLinuz (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I really like the second image you suggested, it's way better than the first suggested image. To the user that suggested these images, may I have permission to upload and add the image? Or are you more comfortable uploading it yourself? Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 03:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tonkarooson: hi there! Those images aren't free so ideally we wouldn't use them, specifically. @WikiLinuz: suggests that someone familiar with graphic design creates something inspired by them. I'd be happy to but I haven't had the time, lately. I do like the suggestion, though. Rkieferbaum (talk) 20:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see, so what kind of picture would be better sourced for Wikipedia? Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 22:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

A picture under free license, see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Choosing_a_license --WikiLinuz (talk) 23:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean no offense but the rainbow infinity symbol has nothing to do with autism. Only the hate group Autism speaks. I am autistic. I’ve never spoken to or met another autistic person who likes that symbol nor do I understand how it remotely relates to a mental disorder 2601:901:8180:5B80:D14E:D324:9DED:59C9 (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The group Autism speaks is not associated with the rainbow infinity - perhaps you're thinking of the puzzle piece? Furthermore, making an assertion and backing it up with "I'm autistic" isn't helpful here, as many of the editors involved in this discussion are autistic themselves. With Love from Cassie Schebel (talk) 21:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

"de-pathologising language"

I have just made a partial reversion of an edit made by @Notcharizard, because of their attempts to "de-pathologise" the article.

This article is relevant to pathology. Autism is a medical condition, and must be discussed as such. I like the inclusion of the Double empathy problem, but I don't think its central enough to the topic to merit a placement in the introduction. Additionally, it does not suggest that autistic people don't have trouble communicating, but rather that they seem to have less trouble, or are less effected by their troubles, when communicating with other autistic people. This way, removing the claim that autistic people have touble communicating is probably not the right direction for the article. With Love from Cassie Schebel (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing a partial revert and keeping in the links, instead of just undoing it all, I appreciate that! -- NotCharizard ^🗨 02:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

It is worth noting though that autism is generally not considered a "medical condition", it is a developmental disability. It is an important distinction - autism is not something that most modern medical proffesionals would propose trying to "cure". -- NotCharizard ^🗨 02:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I 100% agree that autism is not to be cured - I believe that real human success would be impossible without it. However, it is certainly linked to pathology, hence terms like "symptom" and "treatment" do fit.

I plan to look over the page for the double empathy page and add a section on it to this one, but it will be time for me to go to bed soon, so that is a matter for tomorrow. With Love from Cassie Schebel (talk) 02:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• While I appreciate the importance of trying to ensure that everyone is respected, treated with inherent dignity, and empowered to live a fulfilling life, "de-pathologizing" is a bit of a social movement and not necessarily central to defining the subject in an encyclopedic sense. The subject is quite literally defined by the International Classification of Diseases and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. For an encyclopedia, those kinds of things are our North Star. That doesn't need to be at odds with valuing basic human dignity, but we're not in the business of public advocacy either. GMG^talk 21:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. It may be worthwhile to add a section (or even create an entire article) about the view of high functioning autism as a psychological difference that needn't be considered a disease or disorder - These ideas are becoming very popular and there are certainly enough sources. With Love from Cassie Schebel (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I expect a lot of that falls under something like Neurodiversity. But there is a division to be had there between a diagnosis and a social group for reasons of equity and inclusion. As far as the former, we are still at a base level beholden to people like the American Psychiatric Association. They are kindof by definition the ones who get to decide whether something falls within or outside of the expected range of non-clinical variations. GMG^talk 22:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

"Autism" and "Autism spectrum (disorder)" on articles.

Request to merge these articles that have "Autism" and "Autism spectrum (disorder)" as separate articles. It is also a request to make this a team effort, and share this to other Wikipedia articles that still have this I have shown.

So far, I found 6 pages that still have two separate ASD articles.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autisme, and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble_du_spectre_de_l%27autisme. I can't say anything about this on French Wikipedia because I can't speak French.

https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/자폐, and https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/자폐_스펙트럼. I can't say anything about this on Korean Wikipedia because I can't speak Korean.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/自閉症, and https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/自閉症スペクトラム障害. I can't say anything about this on Japanese Wikipedia because I can't speak Japanese. Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 21:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 17 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move; arguments supporting a move are more aligned with policy than arguments against. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 12:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Autism spectrum → Autism – This article is about the condition, not really the spectrum. I can't easily find any sources that say "Autism Spectrum" to refer to the condition instead of "Autism" or ASD/ASC. "Autism" also seems to be consistent with WP:PRECISION. A mentally disabled mathematician (talk) 17:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Move. I understand the reasoning for the article name “autism spectrum”, it’s important that people understand it’s a spectrum and such. But that’s discussed in the article, and “autism” is more efficient, fits better with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. -- NotCharizard ^🗨 03:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Having the article named as it is is good enough I would think. Maybe if it were to be renamed, possibly it could be called "Autism Spectrum Disorder"? Since Wikipedia likes things to be professional like. Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 11:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Another issue I noticed is that the medical condition infobox was seemingly written as if the header would say ASD, but because the name of the page is "autism spectrum", it says that instead. So I think it will need to be renamed regardless. The synonyms argument includes ASC and autism, not ASD. That would be fixed with a rename to either "Autism" or "Autism spectrum disorder". A mentally disabled mathematician (talk) 15:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

the medical condition infobox was seemingly written as if the header would say ASD — I changed it, in response to #Request to change the word "symptoms" to "traits" in infobox (I acknowledge that the request did not include the word "disorder", but I was treating "disorder" as similar to "disease or illness"), and also {{Infobox medical condition}} says "Name ... should be the same as the title of the article". I have no objection to my edit being reverted. (It might make sense to agree on the article title first, then adjust the infobox if necessary, but we can always change the infobox again later - after agreeing on the article title - if necessary.) Mitch Ames (talk) 05:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The condition is called "Autism Spectrum Disorder" per the DSM-5. While moving the page to Autism may make it more concise, it really does not seem necessary. With Love from Cassie Schebel (talk) 14:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It could alternatively be renamed to "Autism spectrum disorder," and you make a good point that the article is about a medical condition; in any case, "Autism Spectrum Disorder" and "autism" are both common names for ASD and "autism spectrum" is not. A page called "Autism spectrum" to me implies that it's about people with autism, not the condition itself. A mentally disabled mathematician (talk) 15:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Autism is not a “medical condition”. -- NotCharizard ^🗨 09:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from but by definition and from what is published in reliable sources it is. Traumnovelle (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

See the definition of neurodevelopmental disorders. Also, this was already discussed in the past. --WikiLinuz (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Support, not seeing any policy or guideline based reasons in the discussion. Opposition is based on the official name which is an appeal to authority not used by Wikipedia's title guidelines and an opinion on how the 'spectrum' is an important feature (that's what the article body is for, not the title). The guideline to support this move is WP:COMMONNAME which is supported by a simple search of google scholar for 'autism' which shows that the condition is commonly shortened to just 'autism' in the body of most papers. Ngrams, whilst not being perfect does show autism to be about 5 times as common than autism spectrum (which implies that autism is used as a stand alone term far more than it is with the name 'autism spectrum'. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I am a firm believer that both logic and what happens in the real world should trump Wikipedia policy and guidelines, whenever they clash. Wikipedia policies are never cogent for all situations. They cannot be as they are often formulated to deal with quite specific problems, then expanded to cover situations where they are either irrelevant or are positively detrimental. Urselius (talk) 10:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no problem. It's a common name being used instead of the formal name, said common name is still used in hundreds if not thousands of reliable sources. It's not even erroneous unlike other common names either, just simplistic. Traumnovelle (talk) 17:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose I would like to register my dislike of dealing with pointless requests for mergers and changes of article names, please people, preferentially add useful well referenced content rather than investing time and effort into initiating constant chopping and changing! Autism is universally recognised as a 'spectrum condition'; the use of the monolithic term 'autism' would tend to distract from this very important feature. Urselius (talk) 08:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Current understanding of autism is that it isn't a single, monolithic disorder but rather a spectrum of conditions with a wide range of symptoms and severity levels. Calling it just "autism" is outdated (though it's popular in informal and historic contexts). Moving it to "Autism" would actually make it inaccurate and less precise. "Autism spectrum" or "Autism spectrum condition" would be more scientifically aligned, and also represents a heterogeneous group of people who share certain core characteristics of the condition but may vary significantly in their specific symptoms and abilities.

--WikiLinuz (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Sexuality and intelligence are spectrums too, but that doesn’t need to be mentioned in the article titles. -- NotCharizard ^🗨 09:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Sexuality and intelligence aren't neurodevelopmental disorders. --WikiLinuz (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

From what I'm seeing so far, it seems that even most people who oppose still think that "Autism spectrum disorder" (or "condition") would be a better article title than what we have now. There used to be a separate page for "Autism" but it was merged into this one. But autism, regardless of medical context, definitely still does exist and is highly notable on its own, so something feels off to me about having a formal page title of "Autism spectrum disorder" without simply an "Autism" page. Maybe that's why "Autism spectrum" was chosen, but it has the issues mentioned by others already. A mentally disabled mathematician (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a good point.

Look at the revision history between 2009—June 25, 2022 of Classic autism, at the beginning it shows a created page by an editor with the edit summary saying, "<Created page with Classic autism, is a type of autism, is also referred to as severe autism andKanners Syndrome. The other types of autistic spectrum disorders...". If you type this out on the wayback machine "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_autism?wprov=sfti1" and go to January 26, 2022 time 16:09:56, it's named "Low-functioning autism"! And the "autism" link redirects to "Autism spectrum"! I'm not too sure if this is groundbreaking but I think this was a pretty good quick research. Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 04:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I just realized that link from low-functioning autism is about the "classic autistic disorder", whatever that means.

The redirect text says, "This article is about the classic autistic disorder. For other conditions sometimes called "autism", see Autism spectrum. For the journal, see Autism (journal)."

What are these articles in present day? Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 05:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Strong support: As per Wikipedia policy of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSICE. 'Autism' is short for [the] Autism spectrum, and the medical term shouldn't be the title. This also reflects the lede sentence, which is "Autism, formally called autism spectrum disorder (ASD) or autism spectrum condition (ASC)". I concur with Traumnovelle and NotCharizard. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support – Per WP:CONCISE. Svartner (talk) 08:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

does not appear to have moved...

@BilledMammal, is the page supposed to have moved by now? I'm not familiar with this process, so I don't really know how long it's meant to take. Signed from the grave (seance me!) 14:31, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It's move protected; I have put in a request at WP:RMTR. BilledMammal (talk) 14:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Article changing from "Autism spectrum" to "Autism"

Well, it's done; it's now called "Autism". I really didn't think this needed to be changed again. It used to be called "Autism", look on the Wayback Machine. I wonder the article being called "Autism" played a role with the controversies? I think this name change was bad and I'm unhappy with it. :( Tonkarooson (talk) *new editor* 20:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the way wikipedia works - I expect that if the article being called "Autism" causes problems, another discussion will be started and it might be moved again. This is kind of an ongoing issue, how we ought to think about and classify autism, so it'd be unreasonable to expect it to be stable. Also, keep in mind that the article does begin with "also called autism spectrum disorder (ASD) or autism spectrum condition (ASC)," so it's unfair, in my opinion, to say that it's that fundamental or influential of a change. Signed from the grave. (séance me!) 14:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)