Talk:Ayakapı

Aya

Aya is not a Turkish word that means holy or saint. Aya means "palm," as in the palm of the hand. If you asked a Turkish speaker (I am one) what ayakapı means, they would say "palm gate," unless they had been taught the historic etymology. Thus, writing that Ayakapı is Turkish for Gate of the Saint or Holy Gate is incorrect. Aya is a Greek word that appears in specific, crystallized names like Aya Yorgi and Aya Sofya that are directly transliterated from Greek into their phonetic Turkish spelling. When divorced from these contexts, aya cannot mean saint or holy on its own. The reason it's worth remarking on etymology in this article is because Ayakapı is a not a direct transliteration of a pre-existing Greek name like Aya Sofya or Aya Yorgi, but a hybrid Greek-Turkish name. -Stilbes (talk) 09:40, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Hallo Stilbes, and thanks for writing! I did not know that Aya in Turkish means "palm", but this is not relevant: this means that it is a Turkish word with two meaning, one coming from Greek. I spend part of the year in Yesilköy (San Stefano), in Turkish named previously Ayastefonos, and I ensure you that the old Turkish inhabitants knew very well that they were not living in "Palm Stephan". :-) Remaining by this example, if Turks would have used for Saint a Greek word, they would have said Ayosstefanos, and not Ayastefanos. Apparently the -os was substituted with -a (but I am not an etymologist, and cannot tell it the reason) Anyway, saying that Aya is Greek is the same as saying that "Sankt" is Latin. Maybe we could write that Ayakapi comes from the word of Greek origin "Aya" (from "Hagios") and the Turkish word "kapı". What do you think? Alex2006 (talk) 14:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks a lot for the two pictures of Kalenderhane and Gül Mosques (some years ago I tried to take a complete picture of Gül from an apartment house, and was almost taken into prison). The colors could be better, but maybe that time the lodos (another Greek word used by the turks :-)) was blowing...

P.P.S: To make things more complicated (or clearer? :-)) my wife, 100% istanbullu, just told me that Aya is a Turkish female name... Alex2006 (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

P.P.P.S. In the meantime I remembered that some years ago I had a similar discussion with a Greek Wikipedian about the Turkish name of Yesilköy (Ayastefanos). At that time I was sponsoring your position :-) ( I thought that Aya was a kind of Rum version of Hagios), but he answered negatively. Alex2006 (talk) 08:04, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

This question may be unsolvable, please thank your wife for her consultation in such an esoteric matter! I would still prefer a note in the article indicating the hybridization of the name. i.e. even if "aya" were it's own Turkish word for holy, it only occurs in contexts that reflect the original Greek name, like Aya Stefanos, Aya Yorgi, or Aya Sofya. Ayakapı is the only instance I can think of where it occurs with a Turkish word, and thus its worth remarking on. If there were a place called mübarek porta in Greece, it would be worth remarking on. Doing so would enable us to leave the language listed as Turkish.

I'm glad you liked the pictures. Istanbul is a notoriously difficult place to photograph. Upgrading the pictures of former Byzantine churches is my pet project. They've currently torn down half the neighborhood around the Vefa Mosque, so internet pictures of that one will get a lot better. The picture of Gül from the Atatürk bridge is the best possible from so far away with my little snapshot camera. If someone got on there with anything half-decent, they could get excellent pictures of the building and neighbourhood. If I were independently wealthy, I'd get a new camera and then hire a boat to take me out on the Golden Horn for a half hour- that's where the best angles are. Let me know if you're ever in Istanbul, maybe we can go in on it together. -Stilbes —Preceding undated comment added 09:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Hallo Stilbes

thank for answering (I though you were drowned somewhere in golden Horn! :-) ). Of course we can put there the note! You are fairly new here I think, so I explain you something about wikipedia: a revert is only a quick way of starting a discussion on a topic without going on the discussion page, it is not a war act. :-) About Aya, the Greek origin is 100% certain. The nice thing is that my last two expert (one Greek and one Turk) told me: it is turkified (the Greek), it is pure Greek (the turk) :-) . So, why can we write maybe in the note hybrid between the word of Greek origin Aya and ...etc. etc. Interesting is also that it is kapi and not kapisi (like many gates of Istanbul), this means no genitive. About the pictures, they are really genial, you have definitely a good eye for architecture! The light is a little strange (I think that day was overcast), but maybe some of our expert photoshoppers can do something about it. Thanks and cheers, when I will come to Istanbul I will contact you. Last question (personal, so if you don't like don't answer): are you Turk or foreigner? Alex2006 (talk) 12:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)