Talk:Battle of Llapushnik

Perfectly fine

@SerbianTruth21 Hey there, let's talk about the recent reverts. In my opinion, the IP did not delete info. They reorganized the long and bulky list into three bullet points. I do wonder what exactly this article wants to say and maybe the entire article should be centered on the "second battle" instead of the first battle being considered part of it.

I support the change from "none" to "unknown". It's implausible that the Yugoslav forces sustained no losses in two battles, one of which they lost. Additionally, the source provided shows the records of 2 dead and 1 missing (assuming the source is all Yugoslav deaths), and only in the second battle, therefore I believe that the source misses a lot of records and the death count is unknown, and by no means "None". Aaron Liu (talk) 22:26, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello Aaron Liu,

I provided an Albanian source from the Radio Kosova e Lire website, which is linked to the KLA. The source clearly states that a Yugoslav offensive was conducted in Lapusnik from 25 to 26 June 1998. Additionally, I provided three third-party Western sources that confirm the VJ captured Lapusnik in that offensive and defeated the KLA.

Regarding Yugoslav casualties in Lapusnik, I can agree to change the statement to "unknown," since the source lacks complete records and death counts. However, I cannot find any sources that claim the VJ or Milicija suffered any casualties during that offensive. SerbianTruth21 (talk) 21:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

@SerbianTruth21 Alright, maybe we should ditch the "second battle" "first battle" naming and just call the "first battle" the prelude. That way we can just put Yugoslav victory by its own in the infobox. I do not dispute that Yugoslav won the second battle, I only think that the bullet point format looks clearer although in retrospect the third bullet point seems to be wrong.

However, we do need to figure out what is the focus of the article. Is it the first battle, as implied by Kalxo and 3 days? Or is it the second battle, as implied by the rest of the article?

Also, now I'm a bit confused about the date after reading the Kalxo source again. It claims Në Betejën e Llapushnikut të zhvilluar me 8, 9 dhe 10 maj të vitit 1998 which apparently translates to In the Battle of Llapushnik held on May 8, 9 and 10, 1998. Which month was the battle? As the article claims KLA glory this source claims that the Battle of Llapushnik only refers to the first battle, in which case we should use the bulleted list (after correcting the 3rd item) as "Second Battle" isn't part of this battle. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Kallxo source discusses the first battle that occurred in May. However, here is the source I was referring to that mentions a VJ offensive in Lapusnik and several other locations on 25 July 1998:

https://www.radiokosovaelire.com/me-25-dhe-26-korrik-1998-forcat-ushtarake-e-policore-serbe-kishin-filluar-ofensiven-e-pare-te-veres-uck-se/

I have also provided some Western third-party sources that confirm Yugoslav forces recaptured Lapusnik:

https://reliefweb.int/report/albania/serbs-claim-rebel-bastion-key-kosovo-road

https://www.icty.org/en/press/trial-fatmir-limaj-haradin-bala-and-isak-musliu-commence-monday-15-november-2004

https://www.icty.org/sid/8303 SerbianTruth21 (talk) 01:50, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

My mention of the date was intended to be a contradiction to this article which claims it happened in March.

I have no objections that an offensive occurred in July, however none of your sources appear to refer to the offensive as "Battle of Llapushnik", thus they cannot verify that it can be called as the "Second Battle". Aaron Liu (talk) 02:42, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Of course they do, let me cite something from the source for you:

https://www.radiokosovaelire.com/me-25-dhe-26-korrik-1998-forcat-ushtarake-e-policore-serbe-kishin-filluar-ofensiven-e-pare-te-veres-uck-se/

"Më 25 dhe 26 korrik të vitit  1998, forcat ushtarake e policore serbe kishin filluar ofensivën e parë të verës kundër shumicës së pikave dhe bazave të Ushtrisë çlirimtare të Kosovës. Forca të shumta të artilerisë e këmbësorisë armike në orën 4 të mëngjesit kishin nisur  bombardimet nga Pishat e Shtimet në drejtim të Carralevës, Blinajës e Zborcit, Pjetërshticë, Krojmirit, Shalës  pastaj nga Postblloku i Komaranit kishte filluar sulmi kundër Grykës së Llapushnikut e fshtrave përreth e cila ishte zënë nga luftëtarët e lirisë qysh me 9 maj të tij viti."

which translates to:

"On July 25 and 26, 1998, Serbian military and police forces launched the first offensive of the summer against most of the Kosovo Liberation Army points and bases. Numerous enemy artillery and infantry forces at 4 o'clock in the morning had started the bombardment from Pishat e Shtimet in the direction of Carraleva, Blinaja e Zborci, Pjetershtica, Krojmir, Shala, then from the Postblock of Komaran the attack against Gryka e Llapushnik and the surrounding villages had begun. which was occupied by freedom fighters since May 9 of that year."

also here what the reliefweb source says:

Serbia, July 27 (Reuters) - Serbian security forces have captured a key stronghold of ethnic Albanian guerrillas which had blocked a major road across the province of Kosovo, state media reported on Monday.

Reports of Serbian progress in recouping control of the Pristina-Pec road emerged amid a potentially explosive escalation of the conflict when Albanian and Yugoslav federal army border guards exchanged fire.

Albanian rebels fighting for Kosovo's independence from Serbia have funnelled weapons and fighters into Kosovo from lawless northern Albania, stoking border tensions as Serbian forces have stepped up efforts to stop the influx.

Serbian state television aired what it described as footage of ex-Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) positions in Lapusnik, "a notorious terrorist base" which it said security forces wrested back on Sunday.

"The decisive action by the police, which came under fierce fire from mortars, portable rocket launchers, heavy machine guns and automatic weapons, managed to rout the...terrorist gangs in this terrorist stronghold," it said.

All of this proofs that a second battle took place. SerbianTruth21 (talk) 06:58, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, I am NOT denying that a Yugoslav attack against Llapushnik took place, what I do deny is that this attack is also known as the Battle of Llapushnik. I have no objections that an offensive occurred in July, however none of your sources appear to refer to the offensive as "Battle of Llapushnik", thus they cannot verify that it can be called as the "Second Battle". Aaron Liu (talk) 12:51, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how a military offensive works. The Yugoslav offensive on 25 July was directed against the KLA stronghold of Lapusnik, and both sides engaged in military combat. This is the definition of a battle.

Here you can read about it: Battle SerbianTruth21 (talk) 14:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think you’re getting my point here. Yes, it is a battle, but not necessarily the Battle of Llapushnik. Battles aren’t necessarily named like that. For example, even though they were both attacks on Mons, the WW1 battle is called the Battle of Mons while the WW2 battle is called the Battle of the Mons pocket. A single article on a battle usually covers just one battle, so unless there's a source that calls the Yugoslav offensive the Battle of Llapushnik we can’t call it the second battle, best we can do is put it in the aftermath. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I’m also changing the battle month to May for now Aaron Liu (talk) 12:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)