Talk:Bay of Vlorë

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Southern border of Illyria

The sentence does not provide information on which region bordered with this southernmost part of the Illyrian coast (Epirus perhaps?). Also 6th c. BC century description by Stocker is quite essential. I can't see how this harms the quality of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 19:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't insist with unconstructive edits. A detailed analysis is already provided into the article, which is not limited just to Oricum, but to the whole relevant area. – Βατο (talk) 20:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

[[1]] Don't insist with unconstructive edits. Sorry? Have you run out of arguments here? There is a concrete 6th century BC description which you insist to remove entirely and its sourced by Stocker. Is Oricum located in this bay?Alexikoua (talk) 20:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Oricum is already included into the relevant part, your addition is not an improvement. – Βατο (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

As such this belongs here too. Also the description that this simply forms the border of Illyrian coast without mention of Epirus (as its northern border) makes your addition POV.Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

What "belongs here too"? Pesudo-Skylax includes Oricum within Illyrian territory. Stocker is providing just a general overview of Oricum, not a detailed topographical analysis of the area, which includes also the Dukat plain. Also, Chaonia is connected to the Bay only through the Llogara pass south of the Dukat plain, it's irrelevant for this article, and due weight content has already been included. – Βατο (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

If the issue as you point is that Stocker does not exclusively mention 'the bay of Vlore' but 'Orikos' we can use Papadopoulos instead in his description about Chaonia.Alexikoua (talk) 21:13, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Chaonia is already included with due weight. As several reliable sources point out, Chaonian natural border to the north were the Akrokeraunian Mountains, and the Llogara Pass connected it to southern Illyria. Other additions are WP:UNDUE. – Βατο (talk) 21:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Epirus is situated in the western Balkans and is today divided between southern Albania and northwest Greece (Fig. 3). Its coastline faces the Ionian Sea, from the Gulf of Aulon (located opposite Italy at the Strait of Otranto) to the Gulf of Arta, [[2]]. It's cited so I assume there is no issue to mention that the gulf of Aulon marked the northernmost point of the Epirote coast. You can understand that where Illyrian coast ends then the Epirote coast begins.Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

A detailed analysis is already included into the article, read it. The Epirote coast is separated from the Illyrian coast by the Akrokeraunian Mountains/Peninsula, as are the Ionian Sea and the Adriatic Sea. – Βατο (talk) 21:37, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going straight to add this cited information. Thanks.Alexikoua (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

And your POV-pushing will be removed again. See the photo, the Karaburun Peninsula and the mountainous feature of the area make it imposible to include the Adriatic coast of the Bay of Vlorë in Epirus. The article already provides a deep and clear description, no need to disrupt it. – Βατο (talk) 21:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Hernandez states that the Bay of Vlore marks the northern limit of the Epirote coast. In case you disagree there is always wp:RSN. In case you revert again be prepared for AE.Alexikoua (talk) 00:31, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Here is also a quote from Simon Elliott: Meanwhile, Epirus, also a senatorial province extended from the Acroceraunian Mountains and Gulf of Aulon to the Achellos River in the south. We see that scholarship is clear on that. There is no reason why Wikipedia should not. Alexikoua (talk) 01:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The Bay of Vlore is the southern part of the Adriatic Sea, it does not fall within the coast of the region of Epirus and its Ionian coast, from which it is separated by the Akrokeraunian Mountains/Promontory. Almost all scholarship agrees on it and it has been widely described into the article. Some sources that you are selectively collecting do not provide a deep analysis of this geographical area. As for the Roman period and provinces, ancient Aulon was mentioned for the first time by Ptolemy, as a town in Taulantian territory, and thereafter it was included in the province of Epirus Nova. That information can be added with due weight into the relevant parts of the history section. – Βατο (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I just cheked the last quote you provided. Casemate Publishing is not the best you can find. Also, in Elliot's quote it is mentioned in passing and it refers to the Roman province. For a detailed analysis, read Bowden's monograph specifically dedicated to Epirus, one of the most relevant sources on this subject: Bowden, William (2003). Epirus Vetus: The Archaeology of Late Antiquity. Bloomsbury Academic. ISBN 9780715631164. p. 7: The late Roman province of Epirus Vetus covered an area that roughly approximates to the Epirus of classical antiquity, a region now divided between the modern states of Greece and Albania (Fig. 1.1). It stretched from the Akrokeraunian mountains (south of the Gulf of Aulon) in the north, to the mouth of the Acheloos river in the south and included the islands of Kerkyra, Leukas and Ithaca. The principal geographical features of Epirus Vetus are the... [...] The five main rivers of Epirus Vetus (the Aoos, the Kalamas, the Acheron, the Arachthos and the Acheloos), together with their various tributaries, have carved their way between the mountain ranges, their valleys and gorges forming both aids and barriers to communication. It seems probable that from its source until a point around Tepelenë, the Aoos may have defined the boundary of Epirus Vetus, before passing into Epirus Nova.". Bowden's description is in perfect agreement with the current bibliography of the article. Some sources that you are selectively collecting that mention the area in passing without focusing in detail on its actual geographical features are not relevant for the scope of this article. – Βατο (talk) 13:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)