Talk:Bengal famine of 1943/Archive 12

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Bad page move

Onetwothreeip - This was a bad page move. The far more commonname (and it isn't even close) is 'Bengal Famine of 1943'. You should have opened a discussion before unilaterally moving the page to a name that is less than 1/10 as common. See [1]. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:48, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Mr rnddude, thanks for your interest. I would note that "1943 Bengal famine" has more Google search results than "Bengal famine of 1943", but the main reason for this move was for consistency with other articles of events (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events)), and for concision. I would not have implemented the title change if I had anticipated any opposition. More importantly, we should consider renaming the article to expand the date, as the article describes that the famine may be considered to have begun in 1942 and to have ended in 1944. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:15, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I would note that "1943 Bengal famine" has more Google search results than "Bengal famine of 1943". Does it? Google search lists the former with 17,100 hits and the latter with 79,400 hits. That's with using quote marks to limit the search to a precise string.

Consistency across article titles may be nice, but it is policy to use the WP:COMMONNAME. Indeed, the naming conventions guideline states that [i]f there is an established, common name for an event ... use that name. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Examining how scholars have titled their works about the event:

• Bengal Famine of 1943 - P. C. Mahalanobis, R. Mukherjea, & A. Ghosh (1946)
• Famine in Bengal: 1943 - Richard Schneer (1947)
• Bengal Famine (1943) - Tarakchandra Das (1949)
• Bengal Famine of 1943 - Omkar Goswami (1990)
• Bengal Famine of 1943-44 - Arup Maharatna (1993)
• Bengal Famine (1942-1944) - Auriol Weigold (1999)
• Bengal Famine of 1943 - Arima Mishra (2000)
• 1943 Bengal Famine - Mark B. Tauger (2003)
• Bengal Famine, 1943 - Auriol Law-Smith (2007)
• Bengal Famine of 1943–44 - Cormac Ó Gráda (2010)
• Bengal Famine of 1943 - Madhuseree Mukerjee (2014)

There have been cases where the fact that the event was not restricted to 1943 has been reflected in the title, but it is two to three times more likely to be known simply by the key year 1943. One author chose to start with the year, but everyone else put the year(s) last, with the most common formulation being Bengal Famine of 1943. --Worldbruce (talk) 04:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

"Bengal famine of 1943" and "1943 Bengal famine" can both be considered close enough to being the most common name. I don't see any significant difference between them in terms of how common they are to describe the event, as the titles of scholarly works are used more to determine the common words describing the event, rather than the order of those words and any grammar used. Concision and consistency are also policies when titling (WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENT), and the convention for events is to use the year(s) first (WP:NCEVENTS). Onetwothreeip (talk) 04:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Next time please propose an RM here (with discussion) and advertise on the talk pages of WikiProjects India and Pakistan and on the user talk page of user:Lingzhi, the chief author of this article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

PS Please also do not make similar undiscussed page moves on Great Bengal famine of 1770, Agra famine of 1837–38, Upper Doab famine of 1860–61, Orissa famine of 1866, Rajputana famine of 1869, Bihar famine of 1873–74, Great Famine of 1876–78, Indian famine of 1896–97, Indian famine of 1899–1900. Each follows the well-settled order employed in noun phrases in the English language: the location is a pre-modifier and the year is in the complement. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

There's no justification in language for the current title, at least over the proposed title. The vast majority of event articles are Year, Event or Year, Place, Event - with the year as a modifier, which is more natural for titles, but not exclusive. Place, Event, Year is more natural in prose. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

That's neither here nor there. Avoid making undiscussed moves and, if a move is reverted, use WP:RM to propose a move. RegentsPark (comment) 15:20, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

PS And not just the list of South Asian famines above, but in the list of famines, the overwhelming, nay invariant, inviolate, pattern is: Great Famine of 1315–1317, Chinese famine of 1333–1337, Guntur famine of 1832, Russian famine of 1891–1892, Persian famine of 1917–1919, Chinese famine of 1928–1930, Soviet famine of 1930–1933, Chinese famine of 1942–1943, Iranian famine of 1942–1943, Dutch famine of 1944–1945, Vietnamese famine of 1945 , Soviet famine of 1946–1947, Nyasaland famine of 1949, Bangladesh famine of 1974 Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

• Onetwothreeip, if you really hadn't "anticipated any opposition" to this move, I suggest you avoid page moves until you have developed your anticipatory skills a good deal more, or just always float or propose the idea on the talk page, like you are supposed to do anyway - see WP:RM. Johnbod (talk) 17:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Mentioning the Epigenetic Impact of the Famine

Surely we must mention that long-lasting epigenetic impacts of this Churchill-caused famine that has lead to South Asians having a greater disposition to: Type 2 diabetes; higher retentions of fat levels; and reduced ability for muscle-building (due to its relatively high metabolic cost). Balakushi (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)