Talk:Berserker/Archive 1

Archive 1

Jacob's ladder and the deliriant (anticholinergic) drug 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate

The symptoms are shown in the movie "Jacob's ladder" are typical for an deliriant drug (anticholinergic; M-antagonist). In military experiments was used 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate Nato-code: BZ

"Early central nervous system manifestations include heightened deep tendon reflexes, ataxia, incoordination, slurring of speech, dizziness and headache. Nausea, usually without vomiting, is frequent.
During the first phase (1-4 hours), discomfort and apprehension are present. Extreme restlessness occurs, sometimes with involuntary clonic spasms of the extremities and birdlike flapping of the arms. Errors of speech and scattered moments of confusion may be noted."^[1]

Reference:
¹ Chemical Warfare - Secrets almost forgotten; A Personal Story of Medical Testing of Army Volunteers; by James S.Ketchum; p.46-47

--Stefan Bach77 (talk) 23:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)--

Rewrite

Some of the writing in this article is very poor. For example: From an evolutionary-genetic viewpoint, in many cold Nordic lands it helps to be a bit hyperactive to deal with the cold. [citation needed] Under highly dispersed living conditions, where people have to store food to make it through the winters, it also helps to be able to explode with fury to fend off people who might come to steal one's food. Hence, one of the simplest explanations for the beserk phenomenon is (a) there is a valid tactical requirement in battle for "shock" warriors to use their fury to create breaches in enemy lines and (b) within a Nordic population there is a certain hyperactive percentage of the population who can cultivate turning on their natural proclivity towards rage and fury (as in what the Romans called "furor Germanicus") at strategic moments for military use.

It is written as a explaination to a question, and it seems to be directly addressing the reader. Also the writing quality is just very poor. If I have time I will rewrite it, but it would be nice if someone else would seeing as I am quite busy.

Foolishben 08:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

King Erik?!

"In 1015 King Erik of Norway outlawed berserkers."

Who is this? According to the list of Norwegian monarchs, Olaf II was King of Norway in 1015. Eric I and Eric II reigned 931-933 and 1280-1299 respectively. --DopefishJustin (・∀・) 19:34, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Lack of information on Norse Culture

There is a significant lack of information on Norse culture in general, before the Monarchy took over.

The consequence of this means that we know little about the warrior class variants that weren't theives, raiders and other unethical outlaws that would get themselves noticed.

It is noted that some bezerkers may have even been defenders of the weak, and would often use various tactics of using a falsely appearing weak member to face and use a block defense against the oponents that were raiding the village, while they waited in ambush. These techniques are remarkably similar to modern SWAT and other Special Ops tactics.

Similar tactics have also been used for quite some time in Far East martial arts. It is known how these tactics are done. Meditations are used to enchance the body's abilities through the nervous system. Such martial artests have been recorded as having the ability to use biofeedback to learn how to directly control even they're heartbeat rate quite easily.

Technically the tactics were not what was outlawed, but instead the rituals assosiated with them. The tactics are still used today in many SWAT, Special Ops, Strike Ops, and Rouge Ops tactics.

-- Note from orriginal author (Delete along with sig when request for editing as outlined below is complete.)

If someone could get refrences on this stuff and post it to the main page, it would be nice. (BTW, since I haven't gotten my spell checker plugin reinstall in my browser, someone spell check this for me as well.) Could someone translate this to some Germanic and Norse languages. I presume some of these statements need to be put on the master page for the Anctient Norse culture, and just be linked from the various pages.

Timestamp and sig:

03:05AM EST 2005.03.03

Ruediix

ThunderFox The Vulpinian Punk

Spell check it yourself. Why should we do your work for you? Normally I do spellcheck comments just because, when the person at least makes a real effort to write a coherent, grammatical, correctly spelled sentence- which is not the case here. --maru (talk) Contribs 07:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Maximilius:

I'd like to add some additional comment about using mental conditioning to control physical ability. Using meditation to increase physical ability and using mental state to alter/improve fighting pattern are two different effects. Chinese martial art and medicine ultilized Qi Gong system, which include meditation and breath control. Long term practice can boost stamina and power significantly, and alter metabolism and heartbeat. This is what I believe the above poster is talking about. I have practice Qi Gong for 4 years, and martial arts for 6 years, however my mental state during fighting has not changed from before I practice Qi Gong (for example, I am not more agressive nor more percetive). Berzerkaganing involves altering mind state of a fighter, and the fighter becomes extra agressive (gaining strengh and stamina is a side-effect of this state, like how one can write more neatly when concentrating). Therefore, the two are fundamentally different.

Note: I have another comment about using mind state to improve fighting ability, which is posted on another article above this one. --Maximilius - March 18, 2005

Comment by ManikMike:

It may also be worth noting that at the heart of budo is a state of mind known as 'mushin no shin', or 'mind no ::mind' in which, as stated above, the conscious level of the mind switches off and the body simply reacts. As ::anybody who has trained regularly over several years in a technique-based system will know, after a while the ::movements become as natural as breathing. What the berserkers hadn't that the buddhist/budo arts have, however, is ::the Zen detachment from things. To the best of my knowledge.

So we end up talking about a section of warriors who have attained great skill in fighting, and an ability to reach ::a level of consciousness where they simply act, but without a balance or control, as can be seen by the anecdotal ::evidence of spontaneous berserker behaviour off the battlefield. This isn't particularly surprising, though, if one ::takes the line that they had made themselves more able to reach great heights of fury very rapidly. A familiar path ::is an easy path.

Spirit possession

The sentence Those who believe in the existence of spirit possession favor a theory that the berserk rage was brought on by possession by an animal spirit of either a bear or a wolf. According to this theory, berserkers were those who had cultivated an ability to allow the spirit of a bear or wolf to take over their body during a fight. This is seen as a somewhat peculiar application of animal totemism. does not belong here as it is a completely unscientific theory.

Comment by ManikMike:

I disagree. Whether or not there was any spiritual possession (if one believes in such things or not is, of course, a different matter), the beliefs of the berserkers may well have had a great influence on their actions in battle and reactions to pain. In this light, the statement that the berserkers were those who had 'cultivated an ability to be possessed' has its place here if only as a theory that the berserkers derived their strengths and behaviours from self-induced manias and delusions.

Regardless of whether or not you consider it to be scientific, it is still a popular theory regarding berserkr rage and should be duely noted as such. SynthesiseD 23:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Loa possessions in Haitian voodoo are also reputed to demonstrate unusual physical strength and outbursts of anger, e.g. the Ogoun possessions. So it may well have been a similar phenomenon. 76.24.104.52 (talk) 03:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What does this mean?

"King Harald Fair-Hair's use of berserker "shock troops" became a sphere of influence."

This is not at all clear (not to me). Could the original author clarify? --Michael K. Smith 21:01, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Is "berzerk" a valid spelling?

I notice that "berzerker" redirects to "berserker". But does the spelling "berzerker" really exist in proper English (or any other language)? Is it not just a (recent) corruption created because "Z is cool" (as is the case with "lazer")?

If my assumption is correct, then the article needs to clarify this. --SpectrumDT 18:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Probably, the z doesn't have anything to do with the Old Norse spelling. Don't know if it's necessary to clarify that, maybe that could be written on the entry for the Death Metal band, or something. --81.232.72.148 00:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we should change it. It's a prevalent enough spelling that it should point here. It's not currently considered correct, I don't believe, but I have seen it in older scholarly works, so someone might have seen the term and wanted to know about it. --Zabieru 12:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The Old Norse was Berserkr, personally i'd have that as the main heading. The common anglicised spelling is Berserker, so let's leave it at that shall we? SynthesiseD 18:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Pop Culture Section

This seems really long. I'm going to condense it. For instance, the use of "Berserker" as a character class in console RPGs doesn't need individual references for every game.

In addition, I'm going to edit several of the listings which identify characters as berserkers to indicate that those characters exhibit berserk rage, but are not necessarily operating within the Norse cultural tradition of the berserker. --Zabieru 12:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, my changes were more extensive than I'd planned, so here's a listing.

• Condensed video game references into two bullet points instead of eight, trimming several explanations of game features from those listings. It's my opinion that the in-game behavior of a class, ability, or unit is not relevant to its status as a pop culture reference. If you disagree, could you rework the descriptions that were here, rather than just putting them back in? Several of them were very clumsy.
• Removed references to use of the word "berserk" in its normal usage. I don't think that when an anime or a game describes a character or unit as "berserk" in order to indicate that it is out of control and enraged, that constitutes a meaningful reference. If the usage seemed to be referring to the cultural context of the Norse berserker, I left it.
• Removed two references to characters (Marvel's Wolverine and Guts, from the anime Berserk) stating that they were berserkers, when this doesn't seem to be the case. I left the references to Wolverines' rages and to the anime itself, but to the best of my knowledge neither character ever wore a bear skin or engaged in any form of Norse spiritual practice, nor were they known for entering battle unarmored, and so on.
• Trimmed out a note about the rarity and sought-after status of Black Label Society berserker badges. The badge is a reference, but discussion of the significance to the fan community should go on the band's page, not here.
• Re-wrote the reference to Beorn from The Hobbit to remove weasel words. --Zabieru 13:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

This could be in either "Modern Context" or your new "Pop Culture" section: how Somalian soldiers in the '90s would chew khat leaves before entering combat, as a stimulant and to provide a sense of euphoria and invincibility, as well as reportedly decreasing one's sense of pain so as to allow a soldier to continue fighting even after being wounded. This so far would be in "Modern Context", but it was depicted in the movie "Black Hawk Down" so if you want it could be included in "Pop Culture" Alex8541 (talk) 15:55, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I am confused as to why reference to The Incredible Hulk would be removed? I had originally posted Gatts from Berserk but could see as how there is no major reputable impact on popular culture why it could be removed. Though having read the manga I can tell you that he does go into a furied uncontrolable state after getting his cursed armor. But the Hulk has had major impacts on pop culture including being inspiration for other characters in various other mediums. The Incredible Hulk is the world's most popular superhero (as stated in the Marvel's Encyclopedia Hulk Edition). Other listings on the page include Krogans from Mass Effect 2 and Beserkers from the Gears of War franchise. I was pointed to the referencing page when my second post (that only restored the portion about the Hulk and Wolverine) and if needed I can provide comic references that would directly link The Hulk to a berserker. Please advise me what needs to be done so I can make necessary additions in the future. I have a similar comment posted on my Talk page because I'm new to using Wikipedia's Talk pages and wasn't sure where to respond to John's comment.

Thanks, Grimbear13 (talk) 18:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything here needs to be verifiable. If it is not, it will be removed. --John (talk) 14:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

According to Marvel Comics' official page on The Hulk, "His capacity for physical strength is potentially limitless due to the fact that the Hulk's strength increases proportionally with his level of great emotional stress, anger in particular," and "The green Hulk possesses little of Banner's memory and intelligence, and is easily enraged; making him a menace to society." Compare this to Fabing's description of berserkergang, quoted in the article: "Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power.... With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they... cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe." Although Marvel's description of The Hulk does not use the word berserker or berserkergang, I think the connection is trivial enough to require no further explanation and does not qualify as original research. Capedia (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. --John (talk) 14:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

"I disagree"? So what? This is a discussion, not a poll. If you can't articulate a basis for your opinion, then your opinion is irrelevant, and doesn't give you the right to remove the work of other contributors. The people that you're disagreeing with have provided evidence and arguments for their position. If you can't do the same, then you are on the wrong side of the argument.

The statement "The Hulk can be seen as an extreme form of berserkergang" is, IMO, beyond reasonable dispute. This article's description of berserkergang is essentially present in the description of the Hulk. The wording is a little different, but not significantly so.

According to Wikipedia's pop culture guidelines, "In determining whether a reference is notable enough for inclusion, one helpful test can be to look at whether a person who is familiar with the topic only through the reference in question has the potential to learn something meaningful about the topic from that work alone." For readers with even a passing familiarity with The Hulk, which is most readers of English-language Wikipedia, this information effectively conveys the main points characterizing the berserkergang state. It also provides mental imagery that will help the reader to remember what berserkergang is long after Fabing's description has faded from memory.

It is relevant. It is useful. It is consistent with Wikipedia guidelines. It should not be removed by someone who can't justify the removal with anything more substantive than "I disagree." Capedia (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Rabies?

Is rabies really a possible explanation for berserkers? My understanding of rabies was that one, well, died fairly shortly- within the month; and from Egils' Saga alone it appears that most berserkers did not die within a month of their first berserkergang... --maru (talk) Contribs 07:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Berserkergang as stated by some sites i checked out in the past seems to be more of a hate-trance, a self-invoked state of combined euphoria and anger. As such, the body would secret adrenaline and endorphines enhanching the person's fighting abilities but leaving it drained of energy when it's over. Some present-day Berserkers spoke about laying in bed for days after entering berserkergang due to lack of physical energy. Death might intervene during recovery, i think! So i don't think rabies should be considered here! Ulfednar 06:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Berserkir and Ulfhednar were said to be as rabid dogs, but I think that the description that was more about the way they acted rather than about them actually having rabies. SynthesiseD 18:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Quote from the Metro newspaper

This seems a bit out of place in the article and unencyclopaedaic - the theories repeated by the singer are hardly conclusive, are they? Gerry Lynch 10:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Possibly related

Just recently Berserk was changed to redirect to Berserker rather than a manga comic of the same name. As a result of which there is a discussion current at Talk:Berserk_(manga)#Move_to_Berserk which some might want to have a look at. GraemeLeggett 13:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Quote?

Still, some scholars consider the frenzied and indomitable berserker and his bear-skin coat to stand right alongside horned Viking helmets as a "feature of later literary [works] rather than contemporary historical ones", placing the legitimacy of Norse sagas as historical records into question. (emphasis added to relevent fragment)

Is this a quote? If so, who said it? 72.200.139.248 17:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Modern world Encyclopedia 1935

the Modern World Encyclopedia from way back in 1935, has this entry on Berserker

Berserker, name of 12 sons of Berserk ("bear skin"), a hero of Norse mythology; later became a generic term for all recklessly courageous fighters

I'm not adding anything from a 1935 encyclopedia to any of wikipedia's substantial articles for obvious reasons. but this page has no reference to this mythological origin of the term. Do as you wish... --ZayZayEM 06:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"This page has no reference to this mythological origin of the term"? Maybe because this etymology is wrong :) Sigo 01:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

What makes you say that. I have a source for it. Do you have one against it?--ZayZayEM 13:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't, but all my sources are recent and reliable (John Lindow's Norse Mythology, Andy Orchard's Dictionary of Norse Myth and Legend, Rudolf Simek's Dictionary of Northern Mythology and many others) and a character named Berserk is nowhere to be found. Sigo 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed from article

The following text is not encyclopedic, is unsourced, and jovial:

Aside from what was seen on the outside, going berserk required a significant motive most of the time. A fanatic sense of duty, justice, and honor were possible motives for inflicting this insanity upon one's self. Family, religion, and particularly love in general can spark irrational behavior, and under some circumstances, radically violent behavior. Every member of humanity is capable of being cursed with this degenerative state of being. All who come across descriptions that are related to going berserk, should not take the term lightly. It is a very extreme state of being which is unnecessarily hard on the persons involved. The resulting consequences are very possible: Heart attacks, strokes, burst veins and arteries, sometimes even squirting blood(yes..squirting) through your tear ducts, breaking of teeth, tendons, ripping muscles, having blood be excreted from your pores, going blind!, ...basically anything the human body is capapble of doing to itself(without psychological limitations)...by simply holding your breath, and increasing the preasure made by the organs and muscles.

Advice: If you have any intelligence in you at all! Do not cultivate this state of being. For the sakes of those who are important to you, and if not them, then yourself.

-- Ec5618 09:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Source demanded

From an evolutionary-genetic viewpoint, in many cold Nordic lands it helps to be a bit hyperactive to deal with the cold. Under highly dispersed living conditions, where people have to store food to make it through the winters, it also helps to be able to explode with fury to fend off people who might come to steal one's food. Hence, one of the simplest explanations for the beserk phenomenon is (a) there is a valid tactical requirement in battle for "shock" warriors to use their fury to create breaches in enemy lines and (b) within a Nordic population there is a certain hyperactive percentage of the population who can cultivate turning on their natural proclivity towards rage and fury (as in what the Romans called "furor Germanicus") at strategic moments for military use.

That demand a source.Håbet 05:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Besides, it would be usefull for everyone to be able to "explode with fury to fend off people" or wolves or lions or bears or whatever. Krastain 23:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Concerning "Bare of shirt"

Where did this idea come from? I have never heard of this before reading this article in wikipedia. It sounds unbeliveably stupid to me. Did someone just make it up?

"bar" and "særk" in Danish mean "bare (without cover)" and "shift" (shirt; tunic). In many legends the Berserkers fight by great wildness without shield and coat of mail (only in the padding tunic).

The shield and coat of mail was heavy as the warrior been tired, and do not be able to parry the stroke of the two hands axe.

The axe and padding tunic was cheap, but most effective against a tired enemy.Håbet 18:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Coats of mail were too expensive for allmost everyone. Krastain 23:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The dictionary support, me. But the correct translation is perhaps only in padding tunic or what you call a knee long shirt by filling of horsehair. The bodyguards of kings was Berserker because they have need to guard the king all the day. Håbet 06:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Which dictionary supports you? My dictionary "Webster's New World (4th Edition, 1999)" says "ON berserkr, warrior clothed in bearskin < bera, BEAR + serkr, coat". I suspect "bare of shirt" is a folk etymology. Benwing 03:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Nudansk Ordbog, say: - [from Old Norse berserkr; 1. part perhaps adjektiv berr bar; 2. part serkr, see særk].

Bearskin is folk etymology from the Middle Ages, because bears was strong and wild as a berserkr. The legends have mix werewolf and berserkr to a super hero who been changed to a invulnerable monster who be able to use a raw cut steer-oar as weapon.

Berserkr have two overlap meanings, 1. The kings guard. 2. a super hero. Håbet 09:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My professor says we just don't know if berserk means 'bare of shirt' or 'bearshirt', but he mentioned both, wich proves that at least the theory isn't made up by some wikinoob, but debated in scientific circles. Krastain 23:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The OED offers both etymologies. I'm not impressed by the way the article currently says of the bear-skin etymology "this is wrong" without further explanation, and am going to change it now with a reference to the OED page. 213.122.52.169 (talk) 16:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

A note on anachronism.

As a suggestion for enlarging the article, it would be interesting to read more of what beserks meant in Scandinavian culture (ie relationship to paganism, Chrisitanity, the gods and spirits, etc). I am always bemused by so-called explanations offered by modern authorities to explain away such phemomena (eg physiological conditions, artificial stimulants, etc), which explain away the power of belief, or rationalise any supernatural elements. Anachronistic, I say. Don't drop them from the article, they just bemuse me. --Iacobus 02:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

I presume that the etymology is Old Norse, but it would be useful to be explicit about the language and the approximate date that the root forms were in use. 66.66.191.79 11:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Berserk vs Ulfsark

Hey and where is the Ulfsark? the tradition mention about ulfsark wearing wolf coats and Berserk wearing bear coats, i think is necessary separate both is not the same .--189.164.126.139 (talk) 16:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Some form of PTSD?

The article lists potential medical conditions, but nowhere mentions PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) (although this could be considered, and probably should be, more psychological than medical, the article also gives possible psychological theories.)

Re-enactment of traumatic experiences is a common feature, and combat a common cause, so it seems like this should deserve at least a mention.

(FWIW I think Tom Cruise's character in "The Last Samurai" was supposed to be an example of this, at least before he stopped drinking alcohol.)Critic9328 (talk) 18:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Find a reliable source for it or leave it out please: WP:PROVEIT. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Spring cleaning

I've just taken the knife to the article and cut a lot of problem areas and introduced an appropriate structure. At the moment the quality of the article remains poor, but it's an improvement. I would like to sit down and rewrite this article from scratch to good article criteria - there's quite a lot that needs to be added to this article - but this is all that I can do for it at the moment. :bloodofox: (talk)

Berserker Slaves or Freemen?

Hi everyone reading this post. I was wondering if anyone knew if Viking Berserkers became Berserkers freely or if they were forced. Thanx, XiBenX 04:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XiBenX (talk • contribs)

Alcohol? Hallucinogens?

OK, so those things would definitely bolster morale—well, for the 'happy drunks' among the vikings, anyway, which I imagine would have been the overwhelming majority—but how could they have possibly fought as well as they're said to have in legend? Sure, everyone probably drank before battle, but the article suggests that berserkers drank far more than the ordinary warrior. Yet, they'd be nuts to get totally smashed. You know, Drunken Fist isn't intended to be utilized while actually intoxicated. Aren't there any historians out there who have refuted this particular claim? TaintedMustard (talk) 08:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

They took drugs before going into battle so they wouldn't be scared of death and feel invincible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.197.238.144 (talk) 14:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

They might have used some kind of drug, but it certainly wasn't alcohol. Berserkers were described as being hyperactive, which is the exact opposite of what you'd expect from somebody who's simply drunk.Asdfzxc920 (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Simek

Who is Simek, and what is his work being referenced? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Austrian scholar Rudolf Simek and most likely some edition of his handbook. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The references are from Simek's Lexikon (1995). If someone has access to the English language edition, they could change the refs accordingly. --Aryaman (talk) 06:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I've got an English translation and I'll gladly take care of this, but I don't have it with me (nor most of my books, sigh), and I won't be home for another month. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

DELIRIANTS

It is well known that the people of Middle- and North-Europe used deliriant plants. f.e.: Hyoscyamus niger, Atropa Belladonna etc. ^[1]

About the effects of Atropa Belladonna:
At high dosage, the effects are restlessness, need to move, strong euphoria, emotional mood swings (laughing and crying), mania, anger and a possible tantrum of rage.
Body manifestations are increased body temperature, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure and accelerated and deepened breathing. There is also a decreased sensitivity to pain.^[2]

About the effects of Datura:

At high doses appear strong excitement, frenzy, raving madness and a possible tantrum of rage.
In a Delirium, the hallucinations are frightening and indistinguishable from reality.^[3]

Also alcohol EtOH and Barbiturates can cause a delirium in high dosage or by withdrawal

Deliriants (anticholinergic substances) (f.e. Tropan-alkaloids: Atropine, Hyoscyamine, Scopolam­ine; Dicycloverine, Diphenhydramine (Benadryl, Sominex), etc. etc.) can cause a DELIRIUM by BLOCKING the PARASYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM in its dampening function -> ACUTE ANTICHOLINERGIC SYNDROM

About the deffinition of the term Anticholinergic Syndrom:
"The term central anticholinergic syndrome (CAS) describes a symptom complex, which was first mentioned by Longo in 1966. Hereby, the neurotransmitter acetylcholine plays a central role.
If the effect of the acetylcholine is blocked by anticholinergic substances, such as medicines or drugs, a range of central nervous system manifestations can result. This antagonistic effect results directly from the competitive displacement from the acetylcholine receptor or by indirect anticholinergic processes. One differentiates between peripherial and central manifestations. The following case report discusses the problem of identifying CAS, which is not unusual in emergency and intensive care medicine. Approximately 70% of all medicines (for example, tricyclic antidepressants, antihistamines, neuroleptics) used in suicide attempts have an anticholinergic substance." ^[4]

Acute Anticholinergic Syndrom (AAS) is the same as Central Anticholinergic Syndrom (CAS) -> ANTICHOLIGERNIC SYNDROM (AS)


Anticholigernic Syndrom is distinguished in two different forms ^[5]:

1. Delirious form:

(central manifestations)

• hyperactivity
• excitability, restlessness
• hallucinations
• anxiety
• aggressions
• tantrum of rage
  

(peripherial manifestations)

• hyperthermia
• tachycardia

2. Comatose form:

(central manifestations)

• psychomotor damping -> decreased vigilance -> somnolence -> coma
  

(peripherial manifestations)

• seizures

Reference:
^{1, 2, 3} The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants: Ethnopharmacology and Its Applications; by Christian Raetsch, PhD; p. 82, 278; 84, 201; ISBN 3-85502-570-3 (AT-Verlag)
^{4, 5} Intensivmedizin und Notfallmedizin, Zentral anticholinerges Syndrom (central anticholinergic syndrome); S.Hochreuther, A.Cuneo, D.Härtel, J.Brockmeier, J.Götz, U.Tebbe, Fachbereich I, Kardiologie und Angiologie, Klinikum Lippe-Detmold, online version

--Stefan Bach77 (talk) 22:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

In section "Modern Context" …

… we have the following interesting phrase:

an overdose of adrenaline-induced opioids (or military-issued amphetamine for long missions)

I think I have a vague idea of what whoever wrote this was trying to say, about brain chemistry being involved, possibly through adrenaline or endorphins (internally-produced opioid-like substances) or amphetamines. But adrenaline and endorphins are endogenous substances, so overdose is a problematic term for them, and I doubt amphetamine overdose is in play – it's more likely to make someone irritable and angry than berserk. Also I can't get past that truly ridiculous phrase adrenalin-induced opioids. We should figure out exactly what this sentence is trying to say, and then find a better way to say it. Getheren (talk) 07:23, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

In popular culture - over the top

This section seems to have far too many spurious references along the lines of "my neighbour once had a dog called berserker". This is an encyclopdeia, not a list of trivia. Please can we have some serious culling in this section?► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 18:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

baresark

This obsolete word should be mentioned somewhere. (Yep, I'm reading Gemmell at the moment but really). --ᛒᚨᛊᛖ (ᛏᚨᛚᚲ) 00:41, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Berserker (character class)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus was reached after seven months, merge will not be undertaken. — KDS4444^Talk 02:56, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

---

This is something important (depictions of "ber[s/z]erkers" in video games), but probably not enough for its own spin-out, and would be better covered as a section in the existing article about the concept of Berserkers. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 15:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I think most of that article is excessive. If merged here, it probably warrants little more than a sentence saying that this is a common character class in video and tabletop games. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:42, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

As I understand it, the purpose of the two articles is different. One is attempting to present lore and history, while the other is presenting fictitious representations in the gaming industry. The two are certainly related, but not really worthy of a merge. Wyrmwood (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that this merge is a good proposal. I also agree with Someguy1221 above; most of Berserker (character class) would be excessive if merged here. I think the specifics of the character class within each individual game could be described in pages pertaining to the games themselves. At Berserker, the character class could be described generally, with perhaps some examples. If this merge began a "popular culture" section, though, there could definitely be more that just video game examples included. All in all, the merge seems like a very good idea. -- 2ReinreB2 (talk) 01:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The plural number

This page is in the plural number.

Danish: en berserk, to berserker
English: one berserk, two berserks
Swedish: en bärsärk, två bärsärkar 

According to my dictionary, "berserk" and "berserker" are both valid nouns in English. (I am also quite convinced that the form "en bersærker, to bersærkere" exists in modern Danish, but my dictionary does not agree.) EDIT from a danish person: You're right, the word bersærk still exists

Nouns in Old Norse often ended in -r, and I heard that the -r was mistaken to be an agent suffix(?), like English -er. Not 100% sure about the explanation, though... --81.232.72.148 23:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Berserker/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

While the article covers the myth of berserkers adequately, it pretty weak on the historicity. If there are no sources available to evidence the existence of a cult of warriors deliberately going crazy on the battlefield, perhaps that should just be stated.

Last edited at 14:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Family stories

My father is Norwegian and told me stories passed down from his father and his father before him. He used to call them barezaks. That is not the correct spelling, that is just how the word sounded to me. He used to say that they used to go into battle and would often attack allies in their fury. The article seems to imply that this didn't occur often and therefore negates one possible cause. I just wanted to point that out. I'm sure stories get warped through the ages but I have as much reason to believe the stories passed through my family as I have to believe stories passed through others.

They took drugs before going into battle so they wouldn't be scared of death and feel invincible, so they didn't have much self control.

Signed for archive purposes only.  William Harris |talk  10:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Entirely different explanation as compared with current german Wikipedia

April 2005: The german wikipedia entry for "Berserker" shares the bear-shirt explanation about the word itself, but explains that berserkers were merely aged germanic warriors (beyond 35 years, which was regarded as very old at that time), who feared to die peacefully in bed, i.e. berserkers were old veterans fighting in the first line in order to seek an honorable death in combat. It is discussed that they drugged themselves in order to prevent themselves to retreat because of pain before being mortally wounded. However, facing a veteran who does not fear death itself is certainly fearsome, contributing to the term berserker as commonly understood today.

I do not know whether this explanation is better or worse, but I just thought to mention the differences.

April, 2005

The German definition probably fit a great many beserkers such as Starkad, but no, there is nothing in the sources about the age. --Wiglaf 12:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, if I understand the German page correctly, it also mentions that the word could be interpreted as bers-erkr which would mean something like "bear's anger". I haven't heard that theory before, but if it's a serious theory, I guess it could be added to the page.

What would point against the theory is that the second element of the alleged theory is that the second element (erkr/ergi) usually meant something like effeminate or pansy in Old Norse, which was quite a hard insult in the Norse macho culture. The explanation on the German Wikipedia giving "Ärger" is a cognate to "Ergi". --85.226.122.237 16:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

"Olaf The Boneless was prone to sudden rages of unimaginable ferocity, the chronicler Seowulf suggests that these were exaggerated before battle by the other Vikings mocking Olaf for his feminine anthropometrics, most notably his golden curly beard, thin wrists and large blubbery breasts"

History of the Hairy Vikings, Beserker Fury and other Rages Verse 2, Paragraph 3, Hymn 7. Oxford University Press: 1976

Wouldn't the use of "erkr/ergi" add to this explanation of Olaf's rage? It's quite possible that using such a word could make someone so angry that they're capable of these feats? Thegn Ansgar (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Sure it could explain his rage but "erkr/ergi" is not just an insult it is worse. I is something/someone awful that is considered against nature - a abomination. For example men that used sejd (not galder) was considred "Ergi" and could be killed on the spot - the mor horrible death the better - and that was perfectly fine. Some might argue that a homosexual man also was considered ergi but was accepted in to society - that is though a truth with modifcation. The one in the resiving end of a homosexual intercourse was ergi not the other one (compare it with the prison logic about "prison bitches") and they did not have high status. Berserkers on the other hand was a valued asset among the warriors - feared even among theire own yes but also valued - and so it is highly unlikely that the actually term "Berserker" means "Bear-ergi". Anyhow I don't think it was a good for you health to call a free man - not to mention a feared "berserker" (whatever the term means) - Ergi as insults was not taken lightly on in the Old Norse laws.

Signed for archive purposes only.  William Harris |talk  10:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

"Berserk" literal meaning

I haven´t done any real research but seeing as I´m Icelandic I consider myself to have an advantage.

I want to address the literal meaning of the word berserk. In Icelandic the word ber can mean berry as in Blueberry or it can mean naked, here it clearly means naked since the Icelandic word serkur/zerkur (the letter Z is no longer used in Icelandic because S and Z have the same sound in Icelandic) means torso. Berserk therefor means naked-torso as in thous that went berserk in essence went "topless" (no shirt´s and no armor). Some berserker´s might have worn skin hats/capes but that dose not have anything to do with the meaning of the word berserkur Icelandic for berserker.

Signed for archive purposes only.  William Harris |talk  10:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Did Berserkers really go berserk?

This dissertation discusses the role of the berserkers and the berserksgangr and concludes that the modern despictions of them (the same as in this article) are mostly inaccurate and previous research based on false assumptions. Can this affect the correctness of this article? Sinthorion (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You have raised a good point, and based on the evidence now provided in the article the berserkers followed a warrior code, as supported by the dissertation you have provided a link to. Whether they "lost control" or not will depend on what the sagas of that time tell us. Some more research is needed to amend and expand this article. Regards,  William Harris |talk  10:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Excellent source

I have provided a reference under the Bibliography section for "Speidel, Michael P (2004), Ancient Germanic Warriors: Warrior Styles from Trajan's Column to Icelandic Sagas, London: Routledge, ISBN 0415486823" of which a copy is available online at: https://issuu.com/johnyodisho/docs/michael_speidel-ancient_germanic_wa It contains 181 pages of history. It covers from the earliest Indo-European warriors through to the Middle Ages. Using this source, there is plenty of opportunity for interested editors to greatly expand this article's content. Regards,  William Harris |talk  19:41, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Nude?

What of the references to nude berserkers? The article only mentions armored ones. As many support or mention that as do those who argue for either alcohol or mushrooms for the fury.

Signed for archive purposes only.  William Harris |talk  10:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Only ynglinga saga where Snorri Sturlason in the 13th century mentions they did not wear armor, no saga describe whether they wore armor or not to my knowledge, except for helmets. The word “berserk” must tell directly what they wore, thus making further description unnecessary. If there is a connection to ulfheðnar, then surely they must have used bear skins. Anno85 (talk) 11:23, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Shapeshifting

I see no mention in primary sources about shapeshifting, besides a modern interpretation of the word “hamrammr” (lit: skin+strong, in my opinion meaning “tough”, “sturdy” in build). If it alludes to form change, then it should mean “to make tough”.

There are sources here claiming that Böðvar Bjaki in Hrólfs saga changes form, but it is not mentioned in the primary sorces. It mentions two things: -a belief in drinking bloods bear to gain its strenght. Böðvar kills the bear, and tells his companion Hjalti to drink it. -that Böðvar chose to sleep during a battle, while a bear fought outside. When he was woken to join the fight, the bear disappeared. This scene might be what is confused with shapeshifting.

Seems like bad sources that gives life to misconceptions. Anno85 (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Gothic Dances

That should be thrown out. It's been well established that Ellis-Davidson made that up. There's no such thing in Constantine's Book of Ceremonies. 92.37.69.130 (talk) 10:16, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Wearing a bear skin

Despite the etymology of the name, we appear not to have a description of a berserker wearing a bear skin in the sagas. Some commenters have said that it is intuitive in the name, and that the people writing the sagas simply knew that a berserker wears a bearskin. Nonetheless, if anyone can find a description in the sagas or other primary source from that time, it would be well-received here. Regards, "Vilhjálmr"  William Harris |talk  10:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

The only association i know of, is in Hrolfs saga where Bödvar Bjarki kills a bear and tells his companion Hjalti to drink its blood. The author then says that it was the belief at the time that drinking its blood would give you strenght.

If wearing bearskin was common, then it would not be surprising if we have no other description apart from the name - as if the translation is correct, then the name directly says they wore it. In other words, it would be weird for a person to describe a “bear-shirter” as wearing a bear shirt. Anno85 (talk) 11:17, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

What about Wildeber, ie "Wild Bear" from the Dietrich's Saga? He is dressed literally in bear hides so much so that people think he is a bear and attack him. 120.29.110.105 (talk) 04:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Speculative exaggeration?

I've read the piece by Liberman, cited at n.40, but can't see it as support for the related information in this article. In fact, he's quite dismissive of most assertions - here's his concluding paragraph:

"The study of berserks is based on an unsafe foundation. Serious research competes with wild guesses and cavalier attacks on the subject ... It may, therefore, be of some use to offer a short conclusion. At the end of the ninth century, some warriors were still called berserkir … They either resembled or were identical with ulfhednar (wolfcoats). Both groups roared and howled when they fought. They may have worn animal masks, but this need not be the reason they were called berserkir and ulfhednar. Despite the closeness of the words berserkir and ulfhednar, berserkr more probably means bareshirt (= fighting without armor) than bearshirt (= fighting with a bear mask/bearskin on). No evidence supports Snorri’s statement that ancient berwerks were ever looked upon as Odin’s associates. The berserks of the family sagas resembled the berserks of old only in name, and nothing in their behavior can be used for reconstituting the institutions of the past. At no time did berserks form unions, and, to become a berserk, no initiation was required. The way from elite troops to gangs can be demonstrated with some confidence. All the rest (cultic leagues, eating poisonous mushrooms, and so forth) is (science) fiction."

I wonder if the other sources for this article are just pulp history of the kind that exaggerates medieval Scandinavian practices, such as the blood eagle. Shtove 22:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shtove (talk • contribs)

References

While Liberman is right to describe a lot of modern writing about berserkers as ungrounded speculation, I think he dismisses the Odinic connection too quickly. We do know that Odin's name meant, roughly "frenzied one" or "rager" - he was specifically a god of battle frenzy and magic. It would be very surprising Norse warriors who cultivated battle frenzy did *not* associate themselves with Odin. Esr (talk) 11:26, 20 November 2021 (UTC)