Talk:Billie Holiday/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Work experience

I just heard someone on the local NPR station say that her first job was working in a brothel cleaning but then switched to turning tricks when she found out how much money she could make. This person said this was important because the brothel was where she first heard jazz. --Gbleem 15:28, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Prison sentence

She's listed as a famous inmate of Federal_Industrial_Institute_for_Women. When did this occur? Kd5mdk 08:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

She was arrested in 1947 for heroin possession. That must be it. --SeanO 19:34, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

On the notable residents of the Blackwell Prison on Roosevelt Island [1], she's listed for serving time for prostitution. I didn't remember this, so followed the link here. Could it be mentioned here, or if it's false, taken off/corrected on the other page? Thank you kindly! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.35.143.150 (talk) 21:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Nina Simone & Other Comparisons

Nina Simone rejected all comparisons with Billie Holiday, stating in 1997 interview: "Because she was a drug addict! They only compared me to her because we were both black - they never compared me to Maria Callas, and I'm more of a diva like her than anybody else." [2] Leland 22:19, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Nina Simone, although I love her, is (how do I say) full of it. She's the only other person, besides Holiday, to credibly sing "Strange Fruit". That alone would invoke comparison.

If we want to compare Holiday to other singers:

• Holiday is similar to Louis Armstrong because she was able to do so much with such a poor instrument.
• Holiday is also similar to Charlie Parker and Chet Baker in that she was able to be a world class artist in spite of a serious addiction.
• Holiday probably should also be compared to Frank Sinatra for the way they both master phrasing in support of story telling.
• And maybe Edith Piaf, Leonard Cohen, or Jacques Brel for the ability to express painful emotion through song.

Gee this is fun. Does anybody else have additional/differing opinions? --SeanO 00:56, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Sinatra admitted being influenced by Holliday, and he was an enthusiastic fan and supporter of her, helping to get her important engagements in the later part of her life when nightclub owners often were scared to hire her due to her reputation as a drug addict.

Not so sure I'd write off Josh White's version of the song so quickly. It's simply amazing.

On a somewhat different note, Sinatra actually gave credit (according, as I remember, to the often-as-full-of-it-as-Nina-Simone Will Friedwald) to Mabel Mercer for teaching him how to phrase. And I personally see a lot more of Mercer than of Holiday in Frank. So often, Billie sounds almost flippant about what she's saying (which, in itself, adds to the emotional impact because it feels that she's trying NOT to feel what she really DOES feel); Mabel (and Frank) both most often seem deadly in earnest even in the lighter songs. StavinChain 15:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

---

Noticed that my contribution on Nina Simone/Billy Holiday comparison got removed. Sorry, I'm new here, should have known to first take it to discussion, and I understand that by adding the piece to trivia other comparisons would have to follow.

I do think this comparison is an exceptional one because Nina refused such a compliment, even though she recorded a lot of billy holiday's songs and got a lot of credit for her recordings. But than again as stated, would be better in Nina's own section.

I find the first message-piece at the top of this heading (Nina Simone rejected all comparisons...) much better than my own unverified bit, so if you want to create a 'comparisons' heading after all, use that! Marcel flaubert 09:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:51, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think this connection would be very difficult to prove. I mean, I'm sure Holiday "has a significant following among the gay community," but to be fair, she has a significant following, period; how would it be possible to show she is specifically popular among gays? Uttaddmb 04:58, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant, or potentially insulting, but I could see her probable bisexuality and "gutsiness"(for lack of a better word) possibly making her a gay icon along with being a generally popular figure.--T. Anthony 14:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Holiday definitely wasn't a lesbian. Actually, I believe she had relations with both men and women. I don't know if we can call her bisexual though, since all of her affairs with women took place during especially difficult times in her life. I know a lot of straight guys who have slept with men by accident after a night of heavy drinking. JakeHaMo 08:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

JakeHamo, or should i say JakeHomo, alcohol can't reverse your orientation, it only frees up your inhibitions ;).

why is she such a legend?

if she had a 'little more than an octave', and by the end of her life her voice was battered by substance abuse, then why is she and her art so memorable? I always believed that having a unique, 'musically' impressive voice is not enough. Billie Holday's emotional availability and really astounding interpretation of any song she sung made her a hallmark in the history of modern American and world music. I read in some encyclopedia, I can't remember which one was it, that she introduced a new technique in singing and approaching a song that was unprecedented by women singers, and especially african-american singers. And I believe that is entirely true. In a very funny, ironical way she can be compared to Maria Callas, rather than Nina Simone. As much as Nina Simone would have loved to be compared to Maria Callas [I am not saying that Nina Simone lacks the talent or is not as great as Callas was] the comparison makes more sense if compared to Billie Holiday. Callas is dubbed by musicians and many Opera fans to have a 'bad voice', and even some go to the extent that she would in many of her songs sing off-key [although thats not very likely but anyways], what again is so remarkable about Callas is her interpretation. Callas dramatic, heart-wrenching performances captured anyone who came across her songs/arias. Her emotional intensity and 'rare' skill to actually 'act' the role she is singing, was something special and rare among female Opera singers [there are many Opera singers with great voices but poor skills of interpretation, and that gave Callas a very siginificant advantage], which made Callas such a legend. I remember I once read a quote for her, and it was about someone comparing to another Opera singer who has a much better voice, and she said 'she might have [i don't which kind of violin, but the best there is,as an insttument of voice], I have a regualr violin but I have Paganini playing', I think that sums it up, her voice might have been 'modest' and not very exceptional, very similar to Holiday's case, but she had the 'spirit' others lacked. Something that listeners to Holiday's music still feel today. One always have the feeling, when he/she listens to Billie Holiday, that this song or note was just sung two seconds ago, that the feeling is really felt. It sounds alive, very heart-felt. Sarah Vaughan had an exceptional, divine voice [i think that she is one of best voice to grace the musical scene for the past 100 years], and she never enjoyed the popularity and the fascination Holiday did. [disregarding her, Billie Holiday that is, infamous personal life which might have been interesting for gossip lines 40 years ago, but now what remains is just the music and that is what lives on] people were impressed by the beauty of Vaughan voice, but they were stunned by the emotional intensity of Holiday Ez212 00:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Drugged Jazz

Billie Holiday used drugs all her life. I do not believe she would be the same musician without it, just the same as if she were born a rich white kid! Her music comes from her experiences and her state of mind, which in most cases (as she seems to show in “Lady Sings the Blues") to be filled with pain and experience...she seems road weary if you will. Being a professional musician back then was a rough, poor, drugged experience. The music of the era seems to reflect this. I mean...what about Charlie Parker’s “Moose the Mooche”? It was about a guy that mooched off his stash.

As far as her musical technical ability, so what! She’s great! She has more style in her fingernail than many other musicians that have the ability. (I believe that Chet Baker sounded best on his horn when he had his teeth knocked out in prison.)

I love her music...she’s going to last forever :) 68.204.163.146 02:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Ryan

Featured Music Project evaluation

Billie Holiday has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Lead - Comprehensiveness - Sales - Audio - References - Discography

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Lead: Too short, should be two-three full paragraphs
• Comprehensiveness: Musical influences and legacy, maybe make "Voice" a subsection of other aspects of musical style
• Sales: Not mentioned
• Audio: Should be worked into article body, and none should be external
• References: Need citations, more sources probably needed
• Discography: None
• Format/Style generally okay, but needs some work, don't end with a quote

Billie Holiday

Billie had parents in there teens

Their, not there. Ponijs

Unclear Sentence

"Clarence Holiday accepted paternity, but was hardly a responsible father. In the rare times she did see him, she would shake him down for money by threatening to tell his then-girlfriend that he had a daughter."

Who did this? As it stands, it sounds like Billie Holiday did this, but it would make more sense if her mother did. It should be clear one way or the other.

Also, the French version of the article contains more information. I'll probably incorporate at least some of it later today. BookishAcolyte 15:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

What would compel Lady Day to write an autobiography in the year 1956? Where can one find this autobiography?

Later Life and Death

In the section, "Later Life and Death", it says, "It is unclear who first introduced Holiday to the drug, but there is consensus from historians and contemporaneous sources that she began intravenous use sometime around 1940." In the third paragraph, it says, "She married trombonist Jimmy Monroe (a small drug dealer that introduced her to opium and heroin) on August 25, 1941." If it unclear who introduced Holiday to heroin, perhaps the speculation on Monroe should be dropped.

Gross insensitivity

The line in the Trivia Section "Was raped a couple of times" is extremely offensive in its flippant attitude towards something so serious. It should be corrected immediately; those kinds of details about a person's life should be taken care of with more care and placed in her Biography. It's not something that belongs in "Trivia."

Here here. It's disgraceful and shocking. I've tried to fix it. -- pde 00:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

For reference, the edit was by this anonymous vandal. pde

America's Top Model

Could I start a motion to remove the trivia item referring to Mercedes Yvette? I think it's irrelevant, uninteresting and verging on the ridiculous (not to put too fine a point on it). It totally lacks gravitas, and for me doesn't belong in this article. tmimh 21:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's an item of trivia, which by definition can be irrelevant, uninteresting and verging on the ridiculous.

I have not seen the America's Top Model episode where this occurred since I don't watch the show. However I don't see the harm in keeping it in, particularly if it occurred on the show. If anything, the inclusion of this information shows that the memory of Billie Holiday has penetrated a show whose generation grew up more than 50 years after her death. Ladydayelle 18:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Early Life Confusion

The section on her early life has information that doesn't seem to fit together. If she was ten years old when she was sent to reform school how could she have been there for two years and then go somewhere else n 1925? If these events happenned in a different order then the pargraph could be edited to reflect that or to read in a more cohesive way.

Also in this section, the last sentence reads: "In 1929 Holiday's mother discovered a neighbor, Wilbert Rich, in the act of raping her daughter; Rich was sentenced to three months in jail." Since the article never mentions whether Billie Holiday had any sisters, it is not clear who the rape victim was. And even if it WAS clear that she was an only child, this would still be unnecessarily obscure. I would make the change myself, but I really can't tell who the victim was. Swisscheese2go 05:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The Wilber Rich incident is highly suspect. I have searched newspapers of the period (black and white) without finding any mention of such an occurrence. I suggest that the mention be deleted unless someone can cite a source. Also, the description of Louis McKay as a "Mafia enforcer" is fanciful--I knew Louis and he was (as I edited into the text) an opportunistic failed pimp. Christiern Albertson 11:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with dates in the first paragraph of this section is a little off, but there is a valid point to be made. It says that at age 11, she reported having been raped. Since she was born in April of 1915, that would be in 1926, after April, or early 1927, before April. As a result of that report and some truancy, she was sent, in 1925 (when she was 10), to a reform school. Now, there's no way for events in 1926 to lead to events in 1925. After 2 years, she gets out and goes to NYC in 1928. Working back gives us arrival at the reform school no later than 1926. Rpking 14:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Source needed

I've removed this:

She sometimes had friends call her "Bill." Gossip has it that she paid prostitutes to perform oral sex on her, which she called "french kissing."

...until someone can produce a source. Feel free to add it back in along with a proper source. — ripley\^talk 01:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunate choice of words

In the section "Later life and the Verve sessions" I changed the words "unfortunate taste for" in the sentence By the 1950s Holiday's drug abuse, drinking, unfortunate taste for abusive men, and deteriorating health set her life on a slow and steady decline to "relations with". Hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings, it just sounded so condescending to me. Annaxt 11:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, thanks for changing it. This whole article has a bit of a condescending, sometimes chatty tone and could use some work IMO. Feel free to be bold in making changes as you see fit, and welcome to Wikipedia. — ripley\^talk 12:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed an improvement. I had added the phrase "unfortunate taste for abusive men" as an (insufficiently bold) edit of its predecessor, "poor taste in abusive men".165.123.89.239 16:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Teddy Wilson

Good biography here but I'm surprised that there's so little discussion (i.e more detail) of musicians Billie Holiday worked with, and specifically Teddy Wilson. Her association with Wilson was extensive in the Columbia years, during which she recorded many hit records with his orchestra. References include [3] and [4]. --Jppigott 01:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

I feel this article violates NPOV constantly by making value judgements and other prejudicial remarks, like the comment about Ms. Holiday's father etc.

Trivia Section Dealt With

I took the entire trivia section out of the article. I kept everything that I thought was important to the article or the reader's understanding of Miss Holiday. Some things (like the anecdote about Lester Young's death, the gardenia thing and the recently-added unsourced claim about Frank Sinatra) just didn't seem important or necessary to the article's success, so I got rid of them. I would support their re-addition to the article if we can smoothly merge them in, but having a "miscellaneous facts" addendum is quite unencyclopedic and ultimately is totally unnecessary. Comments are welcome; in fact, please comment before you revert or change something regarding this edit. SingCal 10:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Many pages like this have a section for trivia, small snippets of interesting information, and also where Billie Holiday is referenced in modern culture. For example, Regina Spektor wrote a song about Billie Holiday called "Lady" - that's a reference that I think should be mentioned, just as it is mentioned in James Ensor's biography that They Might Be Giants wrote a song about him.

--Elín 14:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I think that we can do our best to integrate that information so that there's no specific "trivia" section. Many pages have a Cultural References section which might do well for this article's purposes if there are enough instances found. As for this Regina Spektor song, there's already a paragraph discussing tributes made by other artists, and it seems like that would be a fine place for it. It may be worth creating an "Influences and Tributes" section or something to that effect so these are better recognized. SingCal 19:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, trivia sections are not ideal ways of placing information -- important points should be incorporated into the text of the article. If there's no logical place to add any certain bit of trivia, then it probably doesn't belong in the article at all. Remember that an encyclopedia is a broad-brush overview of a topic, not every scrap of information in existence. — e. ripley\^talk 17:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. It feels to me like the consensus is that since Billie Holiday's life had so many low points, the article must be uniformly, unrelentingly somber. It's my guess that it is this consensus that is responsible for the resistance to having a 'trivia' section. While an encyclopedia should not contain every scrap of information about its topics, it should include the interesting things. Where there is not a logical place to put these, a trivia section provides a place. User:Swisscheese2go, 05:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Discography

I think the discography in this article is excessive. It includes some albums more than once ("Billie's Blues" is listed at least 4 times), it includes multiple versions of the same album ("Quintessential Volume 1" and "Quintessential Volumes 1, 2, and 3 Box Set"), and I think it's much too long. I also think the distinction between US releases and imports is much less important today, when you can buy a CD online, than it may have been when record stores had limited selections of LPs and imports were hard to find.
I suggest that we take a cue from the Charlie Parker article. The discography in the main article was shortened to a description of the three labels for which he made most of his recordings and a small number of important live recordings. The rest of the discography was moved to Charlie Parker Discography, which mentions the important collections of studio recordings and has a longer list of live recordings.
For Holiday, we could cut out the inferior "Quintessential" series and mention the complete Columbia box and one or two good compilations of her Columbia period. Ditto for Commodore, Decca, and Verve. We might mention some of the "complete recording" series that have been coming out in Europe, such as the "Masters of Jazz" series, but there's no need to mention Volumes 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, and 14 (what does Wikipedia have against the other volumes?).
What do others think? — Malik Shabazz | Talk 23:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree that Billie's discography here is excessive and that it should suffice to mention a couple of comprehensive multi-CD sets. Christiern Albertson 21:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Bisexuality

Didn't the article use to contain a mention of Billie Holiday's affairs with other women? Did someone delete it and if so why? It's common knowledge I believe and quite important in providing a complete picture of her. Could someone put this back in please? Thanks SmokeyTheCat 16:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Gloomy Sunday

I am suprised that Gloomy Sunday was not mentioned in the article. Why is that? -- Gloomy Sunday GloomySunday 22:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Because you only introduced yourself today. :-)

On a serious note, an article like this can only mention so many songs. If you consider "Gloomy Sunday" significant enough to Holiday's career to mention it, go ahead and add it. To me, "Lover Man" (which isn't mentioned in the article either) was a much more significant song in her career. But be bold and put it in there if you think it should be mentioned.

PS - FYI: It's not a big deal, but new comments are usually added to the bottom of a Talk page, not the top. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 22:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Question about featured status

In a current RfA, Danny (talk · contribs) is claiming that he helped get this article to featured status, and that it has appeared on the mainpage.[5] I've been unable to find any record of this, and Danny's contribution seems to have been primarily to create the initial stub.[6] Is there some other version of this article which was featured? If so, it should be added to the ArticleHistory. --Elonka 17:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Birth Name

in [7], on the Verve Webpages [8] and in [9] she is reported to be born as Eleanora Harris and not as Fagan. See also [10] --Meilenweit 09:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources

This is a great article, but, I don't know if it's true or not. I desperately hope my fellow Wikipedians will make it a featured article, but that will require backing this article up, thoroughly. Please, do as I ask, make this not only a featured article, but a front page one! 68.236.18.124

As far as I know, her birth name was Elinore Harris. It was later changed to Eleanora.

In the Background Information section, Baltimore, Maryland is written as her place of origin. Billie Holiday actually originated in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Lover Man

It's funny that there isn't a separate article about the song Lover Man, when you think of some of the songs that do have their own page. I would start one, but I don't know anything about it. BennyFromCrossroads 11:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

LGBT

From this article you would never know Holiday was a lesbian, except for her inclusion in the category African American LGBT folks. The word lesbian doesn't occur once. Hyacinth 02:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing the reason that the word "lesbian" isn't mentioned is because Billie was not a lesbian. She slept with both men and women. ~Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.66.174 (talk) 00:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Why has all mention of her bisexuality been erased from this article? F W Nietzsche (talk) 03:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Billie holiday1994.jpg

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Billie's status challenged

Someone who obviously knows little about Billie is requesting citations for this statement: "generally regarded as one of the greatest female jazz vocalists." That is not only ludicrous, it could easily produce a list of virtually the entire jazz press (past and present)! Christiern Albertson 19:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This happens sadly...It's still in Ella's bio, but I took it out of Frank's after too many rows. Truth is, it is an objective statement, though it be 99.9% true...Gareth E Kegg 11:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I could understand objections if the statement were that Billie is one of the greatest female jazz vocalists, although that is hard to argue with. However, to say that she is "generally regarded" as such is a fact, not anybody's conjecture. Christiern Albertson (talk) 03:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The main article suggest a person called Frank DeViese to be also a possible father. In Dutch (Holland/Europe) language that could be Frank de Vries, a pretty common name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.95.200.97 (talk) 13:32, November 16, 2007

Is this section helpful?

References by other musicians

Christina Aguilera's song, "Back In The Day", name checks "Lady Day".

The song "My Only Friend" of The Magnetic Fields refers to her and to how much she would understand the interpreter's heartache.

The song "Lady" by Regina Spektor refers to her harsh life.

The song "All of Me" was rearranged and recorded by the punk quintette NoFX and retitled "Olive Me" in tribute to Billie Holiday.

The song "Angel of Harlem" by U2 pays homage to Billie Holiday.

Saxophonist and composer Wayne Shorter wrote a ballad named "Lady Day".

French rapper Oxmo Puccino pays homage to Billie Holiday in his whole album "Lipopette Bar".

The song "Lady Day And John Coltrane" by Gil Scott-Heron is a tribute to Billie Holiday and John Coltrane

The song "Fell Down The Stairs" by Tilly and the Wall mentions Billie Holiday.

Lou Reed's third solo album, Berlin, had a song about her called, "Lady Day." It was also on his Rock N Roll Animal album as well, covered live.

In Tupac Shakur's "Thugz Mansion," Shakur sings about listening to her perform in heaven.

Is this section helpful? It looks like a list of loosely associated trivia to me. (jarbarf) (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. Someone just added that Chris Botti recorded "Good Morning Heartache"--well, so did scores of other artists. This kind of information is, IMO, meaningless and a waste of space. 66.108.169.111 (talk) 21:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think nearly all of it is trivia that should deleted. Books and songs that mention Billie Holiday, or covers of her songs, don't belong in an encyclopedia article. Books and other significant works about Holiday demonstrate that she has had a lasting effect on popular culture. Among those, a few significant ones should be mentioned (the Diana Ross film, the postage stamp, etc.), and many should be discarded. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, I totally agree, Malik--this is not useful information. Imagine listing every mention of Duke or Louis, for example. Ludicrous. Christiern Albertson (talk) 14:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Quotes

Not sure what you have against quotes in an article Malik - example W. C. Fields#Quotes but you are apparently willing to edit war over it without discussing it here. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The appropriate place for quotes is Wikiquote, which is where I moved the Billie Holiday quote. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquotes is a place for quotes but that doesn't mean we do not allow them in Wikipedia as my above example demonstrates. You removed the quote before stating it was not referenced. Now it is. Please stop removing it as it enhances the article. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

How does it enhance the article? How does it help the reader understand Billie Holiday: her life, her career, or her songs? There is already a page of Billie Holiday quotes at Wikiquote, and a link in the article to the Wikiquote page.

PS - the first time I removed the quote I also wrote that it belonged at Wikiquote. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It enhances the article because it is a very famous quote that she said and this page is her bio. Let's turn your question around. How does it hurt the article? Garycompugeek (talk) 20:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it hurts the article because it's useless trivia. If it's an important quote I think it should be incorporated into the article, otherwise Wikiquote is where it belongs — along with all her other famous quotes. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You and I are not likely to agree about this, so let's leave it for other editors to comment and see what consensus develops. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I knew it sounded familiar, but that's because it's not a Billie Holiday quote at all. It's a paraphrase of the lyrics from "Crazy He Calls Me" by Carl Sigman and Bob Russell: "The difficult I'll do right now/The impossible will take a little while". — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Billie Holiday made the quote famous. She is the only one attributed to it in every source I have been able to find regardless if she paraphrased lyrics from a song. No one else has had a problem with quote and it has gained consensus over time. Please abide by your own logic and leave quote alone. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of video links from Billie Holiday and Strange Fruit articles

I intend to replace two external links removed by Oda Mari from articles about "Billie Holiday" and "Strange Fruit" respectively.

In both cases, the link is entirely pertinent to the topic. The reason given for their removal was:

"Wikipedia is not a collection of links; nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings."

None of these points are relevant to the links in question.

Both links point to specific pages on an online compendium of jazz videos, the first a signature performance of Billie Holiday, the second Billie Holiday performing "Strange Fruit."

As is the case for thousands of referenced sources, including sources not removed by Oda Mari, there are AdSense ads on the page. That alone cannot and does not constitute "advertising or promotion."

The link promises a specific video and delivers it in its entirety without obstacles of any kind and at no cost to the reader.

Why not leave it up to the reader to decide if he or she does or doesn't want to see the videos in question. They were clearly marked and accurately identified.

Your comments are welcome.

Nolatime (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)Nolatime

The statement made by Oda Mari to justify the removal of the above aforementioned link has been withdrawn by Oda Mari. It was an error to refer to the page linked to as "spam" or promotion. The link points accurately to freely available material. There is nothing spam-like or promotional about it.

Like many web pages linked to from wikipedia, the page in question does have AdWords ads on it. The reader is not obligated to click on an ad, nor does the reader need to do anything to access the promised content in its entirety which is clearly visible and easily found.

Further, to address Oda Mari's second comment I have carefully read the wikipedia policy on copyright, especially the guidelines on linking to copyrighted works. I have no reason to believe that the content on the page linked to is a copyright violation of any kind.

Linking to copyrighted works

Given that the content on the page linked to has direct relevance to Billie Holiday, her music and performance style, I am restoring the link as I have every reason to believe it is a useful resource for people seeking objective information about the subject of this article.

Nolatime (talk) 02:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)Nolatimes

I think the content of the link added by User Nolatime is not an original work by the uploader and seems to have been copied from one of these copyrighted materials. See the Rich media section in Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided, Copyright, and [11]. So I think the link should be removed. Oda Mari (talk) 05:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

To Nolatime. Please read Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking. Please remove the link you added. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 06:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

To Oda Mari. Thank you for your directives. I've read all the sections you've sent me too.

Please read this: "It is not necessary to obtain the permission of a copyright holder before linking to copyrighted material."

If the issue is pointing to a page that has a video hosted by YouTube on it, then I assume this link and others like it will also be removed from the Billie Holiday article as well: http://www.kerouacalley.com/billie.html since it has numerous such videos on it including the very "Strange Fruit" video you've removed twice now. The difference is that in the case of the "Strange Fruit" article, I'm linking to the one and only video that's relevant to the topic. I'm confused by the selective removal of one contributor's link over another. Thanks. Nolatime (talk) 05:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Nolatime

I am now looking at two links of the three remaining lists on the "Strange Fruit" article (* PBS * Strange Fruit) and see that they are nothing but two different advertisements for the same video about Billie Holiday connected to a catalog of videos. They're beautiful-looking pages but they contribute nothing particularly useful on the subject and readers cannot see the videos unless they pay for them - a very large barrier indeed. Since this is an obvious violation of guidelines against advertising, will these two links be removed as well? Nolatime (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Nolatime

Thank you for the reply, Nolatime. The problem the link provided is it is practically the same as a direct youtube link. The reason I didn't remove the other links is User:Aude wrote that he would remove them in her/his reply to me. Ask him your questions please. I'm sorry but I've got to go now. Regards. Oda Mari (talk) 05:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Oda Mari asked about the links on my talk page. In this case, I think the links section is excessively long. My suggestion is to remove all the external links, except for the two official links. That way, there is no issue over choosing certian links over other links, and the external links section would be more tidy.

As for YouTube videos, any links to "material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked." (per Wikipedia's external links guidelines) This includes most YouTube videos, unless the videos were posted there by the copyright holders. I am aware that some of the major record labels do post videos on YouTube (e.g. [12]), and such material would be okay to link to. --Aude (talk) 06:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this clarification. It's reassuring to see the guidelines being applied evenly.

That being said on the issue of YouTube or any other video hosting platforms, public or private, the following merits consideration. After a brief period of confusion, copyright owners, music labels specifically and entertainment companies in general, have been very active in challenging and having their copyrighted material removed from sites like YouTube. While there is no doubt a great deal of copyrighted material on YouTube, YouTube now has a well-oiled mechanism for copyright holders to assert and protect their rights. This is not true of other services and it's certainly not the case for privately hosted videos, so I think to single out links to pages that have videos that are hosted on YouTube as potential copyright violations is misguided.

It needs to be reasserted because this fact has still not been addressed in the discussion of this issue that the copyright status of this video is unknown and wikipedia guidelines state: "It is not necessary to obtain the permission of a copyright holder before linking to copyrighted material."

Also, I'll state again, since this point has also not been addressed, that nothing could be more congruent in an article about Billie Holiday and "Strange Fruit" than to link directly and without barrier to the only known video of Billie Holiday singing "Strange Fruit." If, at some point, the copyright holder objects to this video being made available to the public - and given its longevity and number of views, the existence of this particular video on YouTube is hardly a secret - the video will be removed from YouTube. That would be a definitive statement of its copyright status and the copyright owner's attitude towards its intellectual property being displayed on YouTube.

I'm not going to press the point, but I feel the definitiveness of this article has been greatly diminished by the questionable enforcement of a guideline that itself is not definitive, regarding a video whose copyright status is not known by any of the parties in this discussion, including me. I won't re-post the link, but I refrain from doing so under protest and I regret seeing other links that contain valid, pertinent information about this topic removed as well. Thanks. Nolatime (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Nolatime

Better photo?

Can't we find a better lead image than the overdressed old lady in 1949? Earthlyreason (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

regarding "the drama "Billie Holiday" by Ksenia Prohaska and Arsen Ostojić for Croatian National Theatre of Split"

There is no reference for this, and I'm not sure how vital this is. Does anybody have any info regarding this?--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)