Talk:Black Sun (symbol)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Black Sun (symbol) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2: 540 days

Germany Low‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Politics Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Occult Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Occult, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the occult on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OccultWikipedia:WikiProject OccultTemplate:WikiProject OccultOccult articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 21 March 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Black Sun (Nazi symbol). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Should "sig runes" in the first paragraph link to the Armanen Runes page?[edit]

Feels weird for Sig runes to link to the Sowilō rune page. It's not historical to call that rune "Sig", that name came from Guido von Lists pseudo-rune book. 122.57.103.233 (talk) 04:44, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably not the right place to propose a change but it seems plausible that something is off here. Sig Rune (capital R) redirects to Esoteric insignia of the Schutzstaffel while Sig rune (lower case r) redirects to Sowilō (rune). That's definitely weird and inconsistent. I'm wondering whether we need a disambiguation page listing Armanen runes, Sowilō (rune)#Relationship_with_Armanen_runes and Esoteric insignia of the Schutzstaffel? DanielRigal (talk) 11:40, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see what has gone wrong here. Sig rune (lower case r) was redirecting to Sowilō (rune)#Armanen runes but that section was renamed so the link didn't find the specific section. I've fixed that. I still think the inconsistency is weird though and might need looking at. DanielRigal (talk) 11:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi rune use should really be linking to an article specifically about this topic, particularly in cases like Von List's influential "Sig" rune. It's misleading to simply pipe a reader out to pre-Von List rune use, a huge topic reaching back to the first few centuries CE. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a good idea for the best target for those redirects then by all means change them. Personally I don't have a specific opinion on what is best, as it is not an area I am very familiar with, except that both capitalisations should point at the same thing for consistency and, of course, that it should not be anything that adds an air of false legitimacy to Nazi claims. DanielRigal (talk) 20:53, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fake[edit]

This claim has been addressed and rejected several times before. For anybody interested, it's all in the archives for this page.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This symbol did NOT "originate" in Nazi Germany! Anichebesleftpeg (talk) 10:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it did, it was created for Himler's castle. Again (see talk page archive) the sun wheel and black sun are not the same symbol. Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is like saying the fylfot and the swastika are different symbols. The Black Sun and the Sun Wheel are obviously born of the same image. Anichebesleftpeg (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ps. the link that you provided quite clearly states that they are interchangeable. Anichebesleftpeg (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You registered an account just to argue about this? Why? --DanielRigal (talk) 21:05, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think lies and disinformation should be challenged. Applying the moniker "neo-Nazi" to any group that promotes ethnocentrism is childish. Anichebesleftpeg (talk) 06:22, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read the archive, everyhing you have said here has already been addressed, many times). Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we are being trolled here. Let's roll this up. --DanielRigal (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect text[edit]

The statement that these geometric designs did not exist is false, as they did. 2601:602:880:4230:E52D:623C:4862:3E78 (talk) 17:56, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please delete as there is a text omission in the comment. 2601:602:880:4230:E52D:623C:4862:3E78 (talk) 18:04, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. It is not clear what changes you are requesting. Please make your request in the form of "Change X to Y" and provide valid references to back up your suggested changes. Canterbury Tail talk 18:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mistake[edit]

Black Sun (symbol)#Neo-Nazism has a mistake. AZOV symbol ins't based on wolfsangel, it's based on Idea of Nation symbol. Wolfsangel is german ancient symbol, that was used by NaZi Germany, and Idea of Nation is modern-era nationalistic symbol, used by Ukranian nationalists. They just aren't same. Тимур Кузнецов (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some well sourced images and texts saying the Azov Brigade did use the black sun symbol in addition to Wolfsangel. However, Azov Brigade appears under the heading "Neo Nazi" which I believe is not properly sourced, so I will try to fix that now. DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source is "the guardian"...

Look. It literally isnt a Wolfsangel. Its I and N. Sure you can say that idea nation looks like wolfsangel to some people. But it is idea nation, a separate symbol, not a modification of wolfsangel. You cat omit the truth and only leave interpretation. 188.163.81.177 (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we accept that, the Black sun (the subject of this article) is still present, the white circle behind the wolfsangel. Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2024[edit]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The black sun was not created by the nazis this is common knowledge. The origin section needs to be reviewed and redone 2601:143:C701:45B0:1060:4EDC:6826:9E05 (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Read the talk page archive for every answer to this point. Slatersteven (talk) 15:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It does not originate in the 20th century Germany.[edit]

The very first sentence of this article is completely false.

"The Black Sun (German: Schwarze Sonne) is a type of sun wheel (German: Sonnenrad) symbol originating in Nazi Germany and later employed by neo-Nazis and other far-right individuals and groups."

Just look up this one single article to find artifacts from 2000-3000 years prior to what this article says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

But I'm pretty sure you could find dozens of examples that are already unearthed and much much older than a hundred years.

Please make sure you don't simply call it as an invention of the 20th century. It is not accurete. 2001:4C4E:2C11:1400:9DF9:A671:3040:67AD (talk) 19:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're not saying it's from the 20th century, reliable sources are saying it. Yes sun wheels have existed for thousands of years, even similar ones, but this particular styled one of the Black Sun is from the 20th century according to reliable sources. Canterbury Tail talk 20:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we need a FAQ? Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I think so. I don't think it will put anybody off asking the same question over and over, as I'm pretty sure that most of the people asking it already know the deal, but it might help one or two people who are genuinely confused and it will definitely make it quicker and easier for us to deal with the question when it arises. The great thing about answering "Please read the FAQ" is that it quickly brushes off bad faith questions while pointing anybody who really was confused at the correct answer that they want. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]