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Focus on Igarashi

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It is critical that we keep the focus on Igarashi. Every major source identifies this project as his idea from the start and his effort to get it done. Obviously on the final game design, he will only do a portion of the work, but it is only because of him that this project exists. Not Inti Creators, who as the sources note were the developers he selected to help out. --MASEM (t) 21:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is Igarashi's concept, but to claim he's the main "developer" with Inti simply helping discredits everybody else working on the project. Also, "Japan native Koji Igarashi (nicknamed IGA) has been a key developer and scenario writer for the Castlevania series published by Konami since 1997's Castlevania: Symphony of the Night." is a terribly written sentence, so please stop re-adding this to the article. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're trying to compare this to Mighty No. 9. Keep in mind, there, Inafune had a studio of his own well before launching the KS (Comcept), and then when the KS succeeded, he got extra help from Inti. Here, Igarashi had no one to help him to start (he had no studio of his own), but got connected to Inti. This is his project. Every single source lists him as that; they aren't ignoring Inti , but recognize they are just skilled coders ready to help put Igarashi's vision into code, and put his name first. It is wrong to write this article as one would do for a more typical game (eg if this was a Castlevania game, then 100% agree that Igarashi's name would be after Konami's). And as for that sentence, it is absolutely necessary to establish who Igarashi is , his relationship to Castlevania and Konami, and why this project exists. If it's badly written, rewrite it, but it cannot be removed. --MASEM (t) 22:02, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To add, a lot of sources indirectly are saying that the success of the KS is a big thumb-on-the-nose to Konami (adding to their current woes with Kojima + MSG). The history of Igarashi's fallout with Konami is important to this too. I know normally a single person doesn't get this much attention in the game article, but this is an unusual case. --MASEM (t) 22:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know what's up here, but the version you keep reverting back to is badly written. A single person can not "develop" games, they can only "design". Also, the part about him leaving Konami is even more badly written. Instead of reverting my edits, can you attempt to reword it? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, in indie development, you can have the same person filling the role of developer and director and producer. This is a small team project, people are going to wear multiple hats to get the game done. No, Igarashi is not doing this solo, but right now, all we know is he's listed as the project lead, so he could be doing multiple duties as well. Key is: this is his game, not Inti's. Putting his name first is by no means discrediting the work Inti's doing, just establishing the "ownership" of the game aspect. And if there are bad sentences but otherwise properly sourced, you don't delete them, you fix them or tag them to be fixed. Outright removal is not helpful. --MASEM (t) 22:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the can are the game's sole "developer", but per Wikipedia infobox standards, they should be credited as "designers" instead. He is the project's lead, yes, but it needs to be written in a way that presents him as a person and not a company/group. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wii U Port

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If the Wii U port happens, which will be co-developed by a different studio, there is no reason to omit the Wii U port info from the header box. This is standard practice when the port is happening simultaneously to the main release for AAA titles (eg how Activision would usually engage secondary devs for PS2/Wii versions of PS3/Xbox 360 games). But it should not be added until the KS passes the $3M mark to assure it will happen. --MASEM (t) 14:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unless the Wii U version is radically different, porting companies are not supposed to be listed in the infobox. A recent consensus even went as far to only include the main developer and publisher, which I've seen enforced on other articles without controversey. The info regarding the Wii U port can just be included in the article, in greater detail. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kickstarter surpassed (by Shenmue III)

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Why even mention this? It doesn't add much information. Breaking a record might in itself warrant inclusion, but later development seems irrelevant.

Shutaro Iida:

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Dissident93 has repeatedly reverted this edit:

Shutaro Iida, who worked on previous handheld Castlevania games as a programmer, and directed Castlevania: Harmony of Despair is returning to the game in the role of a planner.[1]

to this edit:

Shutaro Iida, who worked on previous Castlevania games as a programmer, director and designer, is returning to the game in the role of a planner.[2]

All the edit does is spell out which game Shutaro Iida directed. Dissident93 seems to be thinking this edit is about Iga, which it is not. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:42, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Was it not? In any case, is this even notable enough to mention? Does Harmony of Despair have anything to do with this game? Iida isn't notable enough for an article, so why is he linked? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the 2017 projected release date

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On this reversion, [3], I will point out the IGN article that just came out clearly establishes that at the start of the KS they were expecting a 2017 release. Yes, KS requires you to plop a date , but as the IGN articles states, they can't change that date once set, and when the campaign started hitting all the stretch goals, they had an idea already they needed to extend the date. Only now with the addition of a second developer were they able to provide a more firm revised release date. So it is completely fine to retain the 2017 date, it's accurate and sourced and the issue around it discussed in a source. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Publisher

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So to be clear, this is a full publisher switch rather than adding a new publisher right? They were originally going with Deep Silver, now it's 505 games? Is there any more detail on the backstory to the publisher switch? --Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:37, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deep Silver was never actually confirmed to the publisher, so that was most likely false. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Artplay

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What exactly is their role? Various news articles make it seem that they are developing the game. It is the company that Iga works for, and he may be a founder/CEO. Reuters says 505 made a deal with them to publish the game. Artplay features Bloodstained prominently on their site. News articles refer to Iga as "Koji Igarashi of ArtPlay". The official twitter refers that "Artplay" will attend certain events, and the actual events are Iga showcasing off the game. And other sources say that Iga is the CEO of Artplay. Taken together, it seems that Artplay should be listed as a co-developer of the game. Although it appears that Artplay's role in the game is just Igarashi.

Sources:

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • If Artplay is a one-man studio by Igarashi, then they do not belong in the infobox. Can any more sources be found stating the studio's size? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • [4] (yes, a forum post but based on a podcast) "Now, from what we've heard from Mana who actually works at ArtPlay, it is a comparatively small company with IGA near the top. Their PRIMARY focus is Bloodstained, and they handle most of the decisions regardnig development." --MASEM (t) 23:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • [5] His blurb in this 2017 conference book says in 2014 after leaving Konami he co-founded ArtPlay. And from [6] "As a result, Igarashi took a day job, working for the Japanese branch of Chinese mobile game studio ArtPlay. But he struck an agreement with ArtPlay that would allow him to pursue console game opportunities on the side, so Judd could continue looking for financing to make the game." I am now speculating, but I think that this adds up that he co-founded the Japanese branch of ArtPlay, which is a small studio, which was going to continue in the mobile market alongside Bloodstained (see IGA's comments in that Polygon piece), but with the project much bigger, they are nearly all working on Bloodstained. --MASEM (t) 23:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I watched Iga's presentation, and he explained that Artplay's role is to act as the IP holder, and to be the final check on the game. That is, the company that holds the rights to the characters, story, and trademarks is not Iga personally, but rather the company Artplay. link. Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:37, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Harizotoh9: Please reach for consensus on this first, instead of edit warring. Especially in the image you linked, it says "ArtPlay: IP Holder, Final Check", that is, basically, production services; plus, Inti Creates is strictly listed as "Game Developer". It is, from your side, unsourced whteher Igurashi develops the game through ArtPlay (which from a personal POV would also be illogical), but seeing his own presentation on it, I don't think that'S the case. In the sources above, you did truly prove that the company exists and Igurashi also works there, but nothing beyond that. In addition to your reversion of my removal, you added "Dico" without source, role, or rationale; they/he/she/it is not included in the presentation, not the sources provided... could you elaborate on that? Lordtobi (✉) 15:48, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really following your objections at all. Are you suggesting that Iga is working alone and that Bloodstained has no connection to Artplay? Bloodstained is an Artplay game. It's their IP and their employees are working on it in key positions, such as writing, directing, and production. Is that not a significant contribution? What would it take to prove that they're a developer on the game? Okay then, further proofs:
  • Polygon Polygon article, which doesn't even mention Inti-Creates, but credits the game to "Artplay/505 Games".
  • This Sillicone era article that states:

Koji Igarashi’s ArtPlay, one part of the development team behind the upcoming Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, has released a new video featuring an interview and more gameplay.  The bulk of the video features an interview with the Technical Director from DICO, a developer based in Tokyo who has been aiding ArtPlay in the development of the title.

...Koji Igarashi’s ArtPlay published a batch of new screenshots ...featuring a chat with the technical director of co-developer DICO],

Several references to Dico and Artplay as co-developers. What more do you want? Also responding above, there's no rules that says the size of the studio matters, only that they're co-developing or not. And they are. That's pretty straight forward. Even if it was a one man studio, it would be listed as a co-developer along with whoever else worked on the game.
Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:23, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that the line between "developer" and "associated company" seems to be pretty blurry, since ArtPlay is obviously the holding company, according to Igarashi himself (per the presentation yo linked preiously). Specifically the Kickstarter page says "Koji Igarashi, the namesake of "Igavania"-style games, is leading the project, with Michiru Yamane composing the music and Inti Creates leading the development.", neither ArtPlay nor Dico is presented once on the page. It is very possible that ArtPlay keeps the IP, but does not engage with the development (which was misconceived by journalists). That would be like saying that Beyond Good & Evil 2, which is directed by Michel Ancel under Ubisoft Montpellier, was also developed by Wild Sheep Studio, just because it was founded and is owned by Ancel, which would be wrong. We should best wait for an official statement from Igarashi or Inti Creates regarding the situation, rather than piecing together random information bits accompanied by "developer" (like this, we could also add Monobit, since I also glanced at a source calling them co-developer the other day). Besides ArtPlay's website for the game does not state any company (not even themselves), so that's not a good help. Lordtobi (✉) 21:20, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your objections appear to be based on your own original research (WP:OR) and you do not have a citation for this. So far it's just your speculation. The citations say its a developer and the indirect evidence implies it's a developer. If you feel the reporting is in error, take that up with the reporters, who will investigate that, and make corrections if needed. As of now, the citations win and should be included in the article. Wikipedia is about not what is ultimately true, but what reliable sources say per WP:TRUTH.

More evidence from the above interview that shows that Artplay is involved in the project:

Dico Technical director: There are incredibly successful 2D experts working with us at Artplay, so we gained a lot from their help. Having them help us along the way is both trying and heartwarming. -

Iga: Thank you. Since you mentioned Artplay, let's hear anything you've been wanting to say about us, good or bad.


Dico: First of all, we're incredibly greatful for the opportunity to work on this project. And thank you for sharing such cool, awesome ideas. A lot has happened, and when we confront dead ends, Artplay always comes to cheer us on. "It's okay. You can do it!". It's a dramatic cycle of boss fights and having them cheer us on."

As for Dico, they are also developers. The original kickstarter page does not mention Dico simply because it's an old page, and Dico wasn't addded yet when the page was made. In a later update when they introduce Dico they say: "DICO will be on the frontline for this stage of the main development." Dico staff shown in the video: A programmer, 3 planners, an effects artist, a technical director, another programmer. Are programmers, planners, effects artists, not developers? The interview makes it clear they're making significant contributions to the development of the game. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Seven people doesn't sound like a lot to me. Especially if, let's say, Inti has 60 people working on the game. We're only suppose to list the primary developer in the infobox (and lead), so if that's all they have, they wouldn't count. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 00:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have absolutely no idea how many people from Inti on this so your pure baseless speculation is irrelevant. The sources say that they're co-developers. Do you have any sources to support your stance? Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:30, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Sources from this article can be used to expand related articles, many of which are small.

Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:34, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

E3 presentation:

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Koji Igarashi, Shutaro Iida, and Ben Judd were at E3 to promote the game. It seems that they're pushing Iida to more of the forefront when promoting the game. When introducing them, they clarified their roles in the game. The quotes below are by Ben Judd who translated for them:

Ben Judd: My name is Iga. You may have heard of me before. For this title in particular, I'm a producer, (not that anybody knows what that means), at all. Consider it a master of dark arts. On top of that I've also written the main scenario, and I'm doing a large portion of the design and planning on the title.

Ben Judd: So that was Shutaro Iida, Shutaro Iida is the director on the game. Um, and I asked him, "So he's the guy that solves the problems, or rather creates the problems". And he was laughing, and said "yes". on top of that he also does the design, and just the overall overseeing of the title to make sure all the pieces are together.

I suspected that Iida was the director, and this is confirmation unless Ben Judd is wildly mis-translating a Japanese term. Also interesting of note, is that it credits Iga and Iida as also assisting in "design" of the game. How is "design" defined in Wikipedia as it is used in video game infoboxes? They might quality for that credit. The screenshot also identified Iida as an employee of Artplay.

Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:03, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Developers:

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Okay, so Inti-Creates was working on the project until E3 2016 before they were removed from the main project. The E3 demo is 100% Inti-Creates according to Igarashi, (source, they designed the characters, made 3D models, made some of the music, programmed the game, etc. and all of their work in the game is still in the game. The model for Miriam for instance is entirely their creation. So they're a former developer on the game, but they should still be mentioned in the opening, infobox and body. We shouldn't swing so much the other way to ignore Inti-Creates significant role in the project.

The article should discuss how they were the original main developer from the before the kickstarter until mid-2016, and how they were replaced with Dico after E3 2016. Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The game is projected to take 3 years, and 1 one of those years was 100% Inti-Creates. In the end, they will have worked on it for 1/3 of it's dev cycle. They're not going to replace all the models, most certainly not Miriam's, and they've made no intentions of doing that. They're not starting from scratch, rather building upon what Inti made. Time and money are a real issue, and they don't have the luxury of just starting over. There's also screenshots of the ship from the E3 demo in new trailers, and there's minor changes, but it looks pretty similar. The exact quote is: "DICO has picked up the development from where they have left off under mutual agreement.". Nothing about remaking the game from scratch. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fair enough. However, past precedents have had us removing companies that left before completion of the project in the infobox. At most, they should be delegated to a note, as we often do for assistant developers. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:42, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Currently as written, the development section makes it sound like Inti-Creates was always set to work just one the prequel game, and Dico and Artplay were set to always work on the main game. The nature of Artplay is a little unclear, and some of the English language sources on the matter themselves seem a little unclear. Since it's a Chinese-Japanese company The Chinese sources go into more detail about it. Igarashi never mentions why Inti-Creates was removed from the main game directly, but he cites several reason why it was delayed and why Dico and Monobit were hired. It's obvious that these reasons are one and the same, so it's important to make note of that, but to also stick to the sources which does not make a link between them. The history of the development of the game should roughly be as follows:

  • Igarashi leaving Konami
  • Igarashi co-founding forming Artplay with Jacob Feng
  • The nature of Artplay
  • His status in the company as co-founder and Representative Director and producer
  • Inti-Creates being hired for the main project and prequel mini-game.
  • Inti-Creates making the E3 Demo.
  • Inti-Creates being removed from the project.
  • The game being delayed and reasons why.
  • Dico and Monobit hired for the project and why.

We have sources for all of these bullet points, and they should be made clearer in the text.

Sources:

Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon article?

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is there enough information for its own article?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd hold off until we see how much Ritual gets. I only see about 2-3 reviews for Curse, and would rather see more and more about its development before splitting off. --Masem (t) 01:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok.I'm sure inti creates made some comments about the game somewhere. I'll hold off until i see enough for a draft.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably enough for a stub, but it's better to create an improved section here and then split it off if it goes behind two paragraphs. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:42, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note to anyone before they comment here: the redirect has now been turned into an article with this edit. Geolodus (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Release date:

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"and now is planning on a release in the first half of 2018."

We're 7 months into 2018, and not only is the game not released, but there's no set release date. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:17, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It mean the article is out of date. There's no release date set, so TBA is the best assessment. The last word I've heard is the March 2018 update:

Secondly, we’ve seen some confusion out there regarding Bloodstained’s release date, based on speculation after Iga’s video about how the scope and timeline of the game have changed. We want to clarify that we have not yet announced any official release date for the game, but before apocalyptic panic and speculation ensues, we’re also happy to let you know that we will be announcing the release window very soon.

Which implies they're backtracking since I swear they were certain of a 2018 release date before. Right now, instead of a release date, we're waiting for them to release the release date. And I am sure that I heard somewhere else, probably twitter, that they were certain they'd release the release date within this year. There's no indication of a 2018 release at all.

For that reason, I scrubbed any info relating to release date from the article and just said "upcoming" or TBA. Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Edit that damn article for god sake, the release based on that stupid fake article was... fake!! the game is not release, nowhere, not at all!!! (aug 08 2018)

What? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They promised "first half" 2018. You may notice we're 2/3 through 2018 and not only no game, but not even a release date.Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which for WP is not an issue. If it were 2020 and there was not a drop of news, then we might consider it a problem. Given that they just sent a backer email a week ago, they're clearly still around and working on things, but just haven't gotten a more firm release date set. --Masem (t) 20:17, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is sort of how it should work. Since there were no sources for a new release date, I removed it, and replaced it with TBA. It was obvious that the game was not coming out in 2018, but we had to wait for confirmation. The only time this is an issue is with a game like Red Ash: The Indelible Legend, which is obviously cancelled, but there's never been any confirmation. More than likely, the game will just never be mentioned again, without ever getting an official cancellation. That puts it in a kind of limbo. This is an issue Bloodstained doesn't face. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:41, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Accurate credits?

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The game has been passed to so many dev studios, it's hard to be sure who still should be credited with what. So we might have a news story from 2014 or 2015 saying such and such is doing this or that, but then the studios changed, and we really have no clue if that person's work is gonna end up in the final game. I really feel we should just wait until it's released and we get the final credits.

Case in point: Ippo Yamada. He was set to be one of the composers for the game. Several tracks were produced. Will any of those tracks make it into the final game? I honestly don't know. He was credited as a co-composer when the project started in 2014, but Inti-Creates has long since left the project, and who knows how that impacted things? I mention this because the Dec 2018 issue of Spanish gaming magazine Hobby Consolas lists the Ippo Yamada as a composer for this game alongside Michiru Yamane. Entirely possible they got this info from Wikipedia and glanced at the infobox. Jake Kauffman is another example. All the recent news articles lists only Yamane and Noisy Croak as composers for the game. However, it's entirely possible that the few tracks that were made with Inti-Creates will still make it into the final game.

We should try to make the infobo as accurate as possible, and try to list only those we know are gonna be credited, and remove the Inti-Creates people who haven't worked on the game in over 2 years. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:55, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not OR. The game that these articles were talking about in 2014 doesn't exist. Bloodstained 2019 is a totally new entity. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:36, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so now the game is out we have the actual game's official credits. Artplay, Dico, Wayforward, and Inti-Creates are all listed in the credits, all with their own lead programmers, artists, etc. It's a little confusing. Also, "curry the kid" is credited as "Game Designer", and "Hagure Ramen Man" is credited as "Technical artist". Curry the Kid is Shutaro Iida's nick name, and he's been credited in games under his real name and his nick name. Given the similarity to that name, I think Hagure Ramen Man might be another nick name, or it could be someone else. I'm also not even sure what a "technical artist" even is. Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:37, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. Ippo Yamada is listed as composer under Inti-Creates, and Michiru Yamane is listed as composer, and they also list Noisy Croak, but no Jake Kauffman.
Thanks, I'll fix the prose then. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the credits, I think Inti should be added back to the infobox. The order of the credits goes Artplay > 505 Games > Dico > Wayforward > Disruptive Games > Neo Future Labs > Inti. Yeah, a lot of companies worked on this and it changed hands a lot which leads to confusion. Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:08, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive Games

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Gameplay footage from a few weeks ago shows the game's intro splash showing Artplay and 505-Games, then a second page listing the developers. In addition to Wayforward and Dico, there's "disruptive games". They're put on the same level as the other two, so they look important. There has been no information explaining who they are, but it looks like yet another dev team was added to this. The game's development is kind of a mess, and we probably can't be sure who did what until we get the game's actual credits. Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Plot summary

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Can anyone add the rest of this game's plot to the article? It has been tagged as a hook for a while now. Geolodus (talk) 16:04, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one who did, but I know it's too much. Not sure how I can cut it down, so if anybody can help on this, I would appreciate it. Maetch (talk) 23:43, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of hilarious to see such an egregiously long plot "summary" only to be followed by the shortest blurb ever of a gameplay section, but I would also really appreciate it if someone could fix the plot section so I can look at it without my eyes burning away from what must be countless spoilers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.145.243.47 (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SPOILER - we don't hide spoilers on publicly-released works. --Masem (t) 17:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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