Talk:Boromir/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cite Checks

• "His fearlessness and greatness in battle was known all over western Middle-earth." There is a cite needed beside that. I don't remember that either. I think that should just be removed. He was well known in Gondor, but not all over western middle earth. -Royalguard11^Talk 03:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think he was, because when he went to Lothlorien one of the elves lamented over his death and siad he was a great warrior of Middle-earth (or something to that affect). --Ted87 04:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Irk? When Boromir went ot Lothlorien... he was still alive. Ergo, the elves did not lament his death. Are you thinking of Gandalf perhaps? The elves of Lothlorien certainly lamented his death. --CBD 22:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

My mistake (it has been a while since I read LOTR). It was Éomer who lamented over his death, not an elf. In The Two Towers when Éomer spoke of his death he said "'Your news brings woe!' cried Éomer in dismay. 'Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever on the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him." In my book it is page 436, but my books paging is kind of weird, so it's about the 16th page in "The Riders of Rohan". So he was at the least, known in Rohan. --Ted87 06:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Boromir

prefers to kill with a sword

Chris 18:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Boromir's Sindarin Heritage

Since Boromir's Mother (Findulias) was the younger sister to Prince Imrahil and Prince Imrahil was noted as being descended from both Numenorean and Grey Elf blood going back to the 2nd Age why did Tolkien downplay this in both Boromir and Faramir's characterizations?

--Bourbon King 05:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Newline-boromir2.jpg

Fair use added. SkierRMH 06:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor

That should be added to popular culture 86.152.162.171 (talk) 16:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The origin of Boromir's name

It states in both of the other Boromirs' articles that Boromir of Gondor was named after them. What the shit? 03:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)03:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This name is very similar to Slavic names. For example, Vladimir (Владимир). Bor (бор) - pinewood (or borotsya (бороться) - to struggle, to fight), mir (мир) - world. And this name is formed by all the rules of language. UeArtemis (talk) 14:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The Slavic roots have no bearings on Tolkien's usage. The Etymologies (HME vol 5) indicate that the name contains the roots bor ("endure") and mîr ("jewel"). Boromir appears to be a "well-known" heroic name from the Elder Days, whence it was used for the son of Denethor. -- Elphion (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Supporting character

Is that a fair label. Most of the other characters from LOTR are simply labeled "fictional character", not "supporting character". I believe this would lead people to assume Boromir's role is small and insignificant, which is simply not true. Much of his legacy was relative to the story even after his death; not to mention he was part of the fellowship--and the only member of the fellowship to die in battle. Geeky Randy (talk) 06:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree completely; change made. -- Elphion (talk) 07:25, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

He wasn't the only one to die in battle, Gandalf died in battle with the Balrog :-) Carl Sixsmith (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

In Universe

The tag was removed erroneously I believe, there isn't any discussion on the characters influence and impact outside of the novel and it's adaptations.GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 19:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Origin of the name

Borimir is an antient bulgarian name derived from root Boria - to fight — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

In the Etymologies (HME vol 5) Tolkien derives the name from Elvish roots. I've seen nothing indicating that Tolkien was influenced by (or even aware of) the coincidental resemblance to the Slavic name. -- Elphion (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure of where he derived the name from. I am just linking it with obviously Slavic root Bor-Boria,Borba. Actually many names in his works with so called Elvish roots have links with old Slavic names. We must also wont deny the fact that Goths, and Nordic peoples were close neighbors of the Bulgars a long time ago. So say the Gothic author Jordan. When Tolkien is inspired with Nords and Goths, we must have in mind where these peoples lived. We must know also that the Author himself lied for his inspirations and names, saying they are his own inventions. One of it is the word Hobbit which is actually Bobbit, and some Celtic myths which he denies to be using. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk • contribs)

There is no point in speculating here on the talk page. If you have a reliable source making the connection to Tolkien, fine; otherwise the discussion is irrelevant. -- Elphion (talk) 17:04, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure where did you find the speculation here. The loan words of Hobbit and Bobbitt is a fact. Taking some Celtic myths and denying of using them is a fact. You need just to read a bit more in Tolkiens biography. Goths and Bulgars neighborhood is a fact, along with many common words between them. One of it is a wicked hero named Longi mentioned by the bulgarian 9th century writer Presviter Kosma. Should it have something to do with Loki mentioned by Snori Strulson in 13th century in his Edda`s which is in fact the only source for Nordic mythology? What about the helm of the crowned king Aragorn made from adamant. Isn't adamant the material of Hades helm in the Greek myths? This is just a small bit of all the "common" elfish names derived "accidentally" far-far away to the East and Boromir is just a small part. I really hope these facts to be mentioned in your Etymologies (HME vol 5). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Like Elphion said, provide a reliable source for your claims. If it is obvious then sources shouldn't be hard to find. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 21:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Iike i said it wont be so hard for you to read the Wikipedias Tolkien critic. For the rest i ll provide sources when you learn Bulgarian language. Don`t worry its not that hard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk) 11:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

You haven't said anything of the sort. I also suggest you read WP:CIVIL, and WP:SOURCE. You have been pushing this Bulgarian POV without evidence on a number of pages, you need to start providing sources. "It's obvious" is not good enough. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 17:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Please, excuse me. I am not pushing any Bulgarian POV. I am saying Boromir sounds slavic and thats all. If thats against your rules please feel free to delete it. As per the rest like Hobbit-Bobbitt issue and Celtic question please click here and read something about it. As per the Bulgarian question there is a guy named prof.Venedikow who discusses the Nordic myths and the sagas especially the ring of Nibelung.He is a famous archaeologist here found a runic ring from 7th century here. There is a huge discussion about it but as i said you need to learn languages. About the where Goths once lived see below

here

About Jordanes and his work Gethica (Gothica) read here and maybe you can eventually get the picture that cultures like Bulgars/Geths(Goths)/Nords/Slavs/Tracians one lived close enough to each other to influence them selves. This author mentiones guy named Lonkii here If Talkien derived anything from the Nodrs ot Goths that has to do with us too. If you still ask yourself why please click here .Now if you excuse me it think i am waisting my time on this.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk • contribs)

I think the missing piece here is any indication of the direct influence of Slavic mythology on Tolkien. There may be common threads among Slavic, Germanic, and Celtic mythology, but this article is not the right place to address that. What would be of interest here are sources pointing out that Tolkien was aware of Slavic mythology (and specifically the figures you've mentioned above), and that that knowledge informed his writing. The article Hobbit to which you linked above gives no such indication, rather the opposite. -- Elphion (talk) 13:52, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You want sources but obviously you don`t care to read it. So i will put it like a citation from that same source: "Tolkien believed he had invented the word "hobbit" when he began writing The Hobbit (it was revealed years after his death that the word predated Tolkien's usage, though with a different meaning).[5] Tolkien's concept of hobbits, in turn, seems to have been inspired by Edward Wyke Smith's 1927 children's book The Marvellous Land of Snergs, and by Sinclair Lewis's 1922 novel Babbitt" end of citation. Bobbit>Hobbit is a direct linking of the fact that this author took that name from another author, changed 1 letter and said its an invention. Which i mentioned 2 times actually. Of course there is not a direct indication of infulence of Slavic muths on Tolkien. The guy was trying to create a myth it self. No 1 will explain a myths so that it stay mythic and to be discussed. But collecting stories and names in his books is a known fact which makes him more an interpretor than inventor of names cloaked behind his invented languages. In that case we can call him not fantasy writer but rather a story re-teller which is a typical for a "mythic" description. As per the Slavic issue for the ~mir suffix i have many proves as this is a known fact of old Bulgarian linguists. Prof. Jordan Zaimov is one of them. We have many names like Dobromir, Vitomir,Borimir,Krasimir,Stanimir where ~mir is other variant of 9th centuries ~mer and nordic ~mar . This is a pure old Slavonic suffix met in 7-8 century books and some say pure Bulgarian ones. We had kings with names like Malomer, Malamir here ,Stoimer,Terimer,Nedomer,Slavomer,Volodimir,(old Russian) now Vladimir and nordic Valdermaer. These are names influenced by the last Slavic kingdom remained by the end of 12th century in Rügen island, todays Denmark 1 2. If there are common personal names then there is common history. Thats a proven fact too. Now i know that this depute here wont change anything. My goal is as i said: If Tolkien derived names only from Old Nordic myths and Gothic peoples, than you must understand that these stories came from somewhere. They are not pure Nordic but were inspired. Same as Bulgarian and Slavic myths are with Iranian and Pamir roots, as Greek myths are with Syrian and Egyptian roots, as Egyptian/Syrian/Iranian myths are with Sumerian/Indian roots and in all of them have ancient names from other cultures. Like Valde>Vlade- to rule and ~mar,~mir - peace, world, Valdemar [[1]] - ruler of peace/world. What should be the Latin etymology? Vald- wall mar- sea? Anyways Boromir, Faramir are names derived from eastern cultures masked behind "elfish" languages. Which is most interesting for me as this author went far-far away from the borders of western civilizations and their stories.

I'm afraid you're talking absolute rubbish. You've taken one disputed claim that the name was taken from Bobbit, and extrapolated that the rest of the work is inspired by Bulgarian myths. Utter tripe. If you'd care to read the sourcing guidelines you have been linked to several times you would see you need to provide sources to third party works that support your claims. Otherwise I suggest you drop it, talk pages are not for general discussions on our thoughts and theories, only how to improve the article, this discussion is not doing that. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 16:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

You must understand something pretty clear on here. I am not claiming inspiration the whole work from Bulgarian andm Slavic myths but just some parts of it. I am not claiming that the work is inspired from Bulgarian myths but i am saying that it has lot in common with the Slavs realm. Please, go educate yourself about these things and go read some literature. You can start from here[[2]] and maybe you will find out that not only the Bobbit is an inspiration from something else but the whole conception of the this ring comes from "Gyge from Lydia" work from Plato and Socrates done 4 century BC. If you dont have a time i will quote:Ring_of_Gyges "The story has been cited as one of the sources of J. R. R. Tolkien's One Ring, especially for the behavior of Gollum, as bearer of the Ring and his misdeeds in his original village." and "Critics such as Steve Bonta consider the magic ring which plays a major role in the books of Tolkien to be considerably inspired by the Ring of Gyges. Gyges' ring had been in the possession of an ancient king, came into the hands of its later holder when he descended into a cave, conferred the power of invisibility on its holder, enabled him to gain great power but also induced him to ruthless and immoral behaviour. The same is true of the magic ring in Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Plato's use of the Ring of Gyges as a metaphor for the corruption caused by power fully applies to Tolkien's work.[6] This is just another proove of something that you just cant understand. This guy Tolkin is re-writer, copy-paster not a story teller. Story teller is a creator like Rolling for example. And please, do not call something that you cant understand "foolish", as the researches on slavic/nordic myths and their origin came from people with much more brain than you have. They are professors, read much more books than you will ever dream off. Tolkiens works always link to something else, copying here and there for his own uses and then he denies it. This has nothing to do with creativity. Even the idea of the moral of bearing the ring is not his: "Plato used the story as a metaphor for the corruption caused by power. In The Republic Glaucon recounts the story of the Ring of Gyges to Socrates. Glaucon argues that men are inherently unjust, and are only restrained from unjust behavior by the fetters of law and society. In Glaucon's view, unlimited power blurs the difference between just and unjust men. "Suppose there were two such magic rings," he tells Socrates, "and the just [man] put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely what he liked out of the market or go into houses and lie with anyone at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a god among men. Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point." It obviously has been taken from The Republic by Plato. I wont explain the Elf question nor the dwarf things as i have no time to educate you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

First, you do not help your case by calling people stupid or unread. Second, the Legend of Gyges has no relevance to Boromir or Slavic influence on Tolkien, so it's not clear why you have brought it up. (In fact, after following your references I have removed the claims of influence from Plato's story on The Lord of the Rings because the support given is very weak -- a student paper in one case and a review in The New American in the other. Neither is a particularly reliable source, and without a stronger connection superficial resemblance is not particularly compelling.)

Which brings me to the important point. Reliable sources (WP:RS) are essential for Wikipedia. I will repeat advice I gave above: there is no point in speculating here on the talk page. If you have a reliable source making the connection to Tolkien, fine; otherwise the discussion is irrelevant. I don't rule out the possibility of Slavic influence on the development of Boromir, but if your claims (and I mean claims beyond common development or superficial resemblance) are not supported by reliable sources, they are not fair game for Wikipedia.

-- Elphion (talk) 03:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion here was about the origin of the names Boromir/Faramir and the old Slavonic roots of the suffix ~mir (including Bulgarians as they were the dawn of old Slavonic literature). Then the talk extended to links of other stories inspired by Tolkien in his stories. Its not a secret that his work is actually a collection of stories and there is nothing wrong with it. But not like Grimms who explained mainly the Germanic myths, Talkien went a lot far to south/north east. Ents are talking forest in Finno-ugric peoples, magic ring is a story told by Plato, Faramir/Boromir are Old Slavic names/Roxan/Roloxani is related to Alans a steppe blond horse riders from the east. There is one whole picture which i am trying to explain since this discussion has began. As per the ring of Gyges of Lydia thats just another small prove that you guys keep denying blindly explaining me that the sources are trustfulness, student paper work, discussed etc. What you call a trusty source? A history channel report? Did you read the texts of The Republic by Plato? Do you want to tell me that Plato was inspired by Tolkien? Do you want a source of that? Me personally speak 4 languages and i cant link courses to your English language as i am not a translator here and its a waste of my time. Now you must really open your eyes and re-read the rules of this Wikipedia site and to make note of whats trust worthy. Oh and please, feel free to delete whatever you feel not trustworthy from this posting or that what not corresponds your rules of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:SOURCE and WP:RELIABLE, these links that have been given to you several times. What you 'know' and what you infer are completely irrelevant to the discussion. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 10:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

It's an established fact that the name Boromir (like Rohan and Faramir for that matter) is a combination of syllables from Tolkien's artificial language Sindarin. Bôr means faithful, trusty man while mîr is jewel.[3][4]. Whether Tolkien first took the real-world Slavic name and then chose to attribute a Sindarin meaning to each syllable to create his language or whether he constructed something random in Sindarin that incidentally matched an existing name is up to speculation. The recent Tolkien research however does not put any weight on Slavic languages as an inspiration, instead it has repeatedly been noted that Tolkien himself wanted Sindarin to be very close to the Welsh language which he found esthetically attractive, cf. the 2009 review by "Solopova, Elizabeth (2009). Languages, Myths and History: An Introduction to the Linguistic and Literary Background of J. R. R. Tolkien's Fiction. New York City: North Landing Books. ISBN 978-0-9816607-1-4.". De728631 (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the statement of De728631. I agree that my POW stays on speculative shady side of this discussion. I never wanted my POW of be viewed as a fact and it could not be, because i have no English proved translated sources about it. All i wanted is to share a POW of the source of the connection of names/stories/fair folks and heroes existing in Tolkien`s works and to point his denial of ever loaning it. As per welsh/Gaelic all OLD Celtic speakers they are all Hallstat cultures coming from one and the same place> Close neighbors of Daco-Trakians [[5]]. Tolkien was a simply "word-lover". After he loaned and liked some "beautiful" "esthetically" words he "implanted" it in his so called languages. Then he needed to so to say explain it in different way from the original meaning. I can take the English word "carrot" and explain that in my fictional language called Green-hubu it mean "a yellow cucumber". Of course the non-English speakers would maybe believe me but not the English speaker for which the carrot words stays a carrot whatever i am trying to explain. Same is for Boromir. For me it means a "Peace fighter" loaned from Old Slavonic influenced by old Bulgarian languages. For you it might mean faithful, trusty man in Sandarian fictional language but for me does not. And if that was the only case i would say its just coincident. But when coincidences are starting to be too many, then its a simple influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Please stop editing your comments after you have posted them. If you need to change what you have said you should strike through the old text, it makes it easier for people to follow the thread of your discussion. Your opinion of what words mean is utterly irrelevant, talk pages are not here for you to discuss your theories and pet ideas. You have been told this a number of times, which means you are either a troll or perhaps are not capable of understanding. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 10:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

My statements are followed by sources where possible. The ~mir suffix which is stated as Slavonic by many authors and the Ring of Gyg stated as a source for Tolkien s work by the critic which has a lot to do with the fact of loaning myths from Old World not only the Nordic sagas. The hobbit/bobbit issue as well. I told you 10 times go educate .. read something you can start with a critics ( if your midgets language allows you do it). And don`t call me a troll as i told you 10 times : if something is overruled this discussion, please feel free to delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

[moved "In Universe" below the continuation of the current discussion -- Elphion (talk) 03:09, 22 July 2012 (UTC)]

in the real world, the etymology is nothing but straight out Slavic. Bor means fight, mir means glory. It's obvious to any Slavic speaker. Early Slavic pagan names were all similar : branimir , Vladimir, vlastimir, hotimir. Etc Slovenski Volk (talk)

1. you've responded to the wrong section. 2. No it is not slavic in origin. What you are doing is making your own assumptions GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 09:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I did not make any assumptions, lest you state "cat means cat" is an assumption. And I said in the real world the etymology is clear, not only in the morphemes, but the binary structure of the name itself. I did not say that's what it means in the novel, nor that it was Tolkien's inspiration for it. Moreover, the form bor- is attested in early Slavic chieftains in the Balkans (Borna, Borut, Boromir, etc). So your comment is misplaced. Of course, many Gothic names had a similar form also. Slovenski Volk (talk) 10:13, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

You are making assumptions. Boromir is a word made up by an author, you are assuming it was slavic in origin. You have no proof for this, you can provide no reliable third party quotes that support your claim. That is making an assumption. That is original research. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 10:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Slovenski Volk, while it is not a reliable source either you might want to have a look at this blog essay and the discussion about the possible Slavic origin of Tolkien's Boromir. The author Jason Fisher responds that to him it is not more than coincidence and that is was dangerous to hunt "through dictionaries looking for possible roots to Tolkien’s names based on some preconceived idea as to their appropriateness. For example, the meaning “world + struggle” sounds like it might fit Boromir, but this alone gives us no reason to adduce a Slavic source." He then continues that are also old Norse and Old English elements that would fit into "Boromir", so in the end assigning an origin to this fictional name is nothing but speculation. De728631 (talk) 11:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that ref, De... So to re-iterate to Gimli who appears to have a slow uptake , I'll repeat I did not say that's what it means in the novel, nor that it (Slavic) was Tolkien's inspiration for it. Perhaps a freakish coincidence, yes, but its meaning is Slavic is 100% clear without needing to 'search' esoteric literature, and the names itself is attested. Period. I was just commenting on that fact in light of above discussions. Slovenski Volk (talk) 02:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The relevant point is that while the roots of the name 'Boromir' may coincide with Slavic roots, there is (as you agree) no evidence showing that this is anything other than accidental; and since the resemblance appears to be coincidental, the fact has no relevance to this article. -- Elphion (talk) 03:09, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Slovenski said in the real world, the etymology is nothing but straight out Slavic.. It is not. Seriously, look up the meaning of the word etymology. It does not mean 'break a word up in anyway you see fit to get your own meaning from it'. That is the basis for this discussion. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 05:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Slovenski Volk there is no point to argue with these guys. It is obvious that this guy Gimli is too strait headed Cyclopedius to understand a "Slavic" point of view. He states some English speaking guys that cant read slavic text. My example was clear enough. If i write a book and my heroes name is Red Carrot for you he will be a vegetable, but in my language i will state it means Mighty King. Then i will say that i invented this name all alone. Would my statement change your mind that a hero named Red Carrot means Mighty King? I will give you another example and i hope you are not so stupid as you look like to understand me. Nordic god Thor in my language means manure,soil written "tor" spelled [tor]. Isn't that close to the etymology of the thunder god of " thunder, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility"[[6]] But of course this is jut a coincidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Carrots are orange by the way. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 07:22, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Outlander_(film)

There is also a character with the name "Boromir" in the movie: Outlander
(ʘ̢̡̑ʘ̑) (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)