Talk:Buck Angel/Archive 2

Born as Susan Butch

He was born as Susan Butch in Yucatan Mexico, as he says in the Interview.

• Butch Angel in a show in the Netherlands, saying he was born as Susan Butch.

The fact does not find the way to the article. --Netpilots (talk) 10:07, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I watched the video twice, and I didn't hear him say that. He repeatedly said his given name was "Susan", which is stated in the article. He lives in Mexico now, I believe, but the article has a source that states he was born in California. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Somebody will find a reference somewhere sometimes. Then the info will find it's way back to the article. --Netpilots (talk) 06:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

His Name "Susan" (but not Butch) ist mentioned in the Interview II (sec 50 and so on). The Name Susan was also found by Jason A. Quest. It's confusing, a reference mentioned the name Jake Miller. Actually I belive more Bucks words than the reference. --Netpilots (talk) 00:44, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm removing his legal name and birth name per WP:BLP (Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy) and WP:UNDUE. He was never notable under either name, neither name is well known, the vast majority of the cited sources in the article do not mention either name (I checked), every source refers to him primarily as Buck Angel, and his website does not publicize any name apart from Buck Angel. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 01:59, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

We don't need "the vast majority" of sources to state a piece of information, and for it be featured in the subject's promotional materials before we include it. (We'd be left with a lot of sketchy bio articles by that standard.) We only need it stated by a reliable source. And in the case of his given name, that source is him, repeatedly volunteering it in interviews, as a simple fact of his life story. There is no "privacy" reason to try to suppress that information, when he clearly has no problem with it being public knowledge.

As for "undue emphasis", a single passing reference to the female name he was given at birth, in the context of explaining how he was raised as a girl despite not feeling/behaving like one... is the exactly right amount of emphasis that fact should have. It's important. Without it, the reader might assume he was called "Buck", and surmise that's why he was a "tomboy". Knowing that people called him "Susan" makes it much easier for the reader to understand his childhood and adolescent experience. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't say he volunteered the info. In one interview, the interviewer told him his birth name and then he confirmed it. In the other he was asked what it was and did answer, but he seemed a bit thrown by the question before rolling with it. Do you know of any instances where he's mentioned the name without prompting? It doesn't seem like something he ever brings up, even though he's generally very open about his life and history.

Of course we don't need a bunch of sources to publish a piece of info, but on the other hand, we don't need to publish every scrap of reliable info we can find. With a living person, we should be cautious with the info we choose to broadcast, especially with someone like Buck Angel, who is a "public figure" but not a super-well-known one on the level of someone like Tiger Woods or Tom Cruise. As WP:BLP points out, full/legal names are often considered sensitive info and, in this case, the subject's birth name is not well known or commonly discussed.

As for the concern that readers might think Buck was his birth name, it would be easy enough to rewrite things so that it was clear that it wasn't without revealing what his birth name was. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Clarification: I am not talking about his legal or full name. I'm talking about the childhood given name "Susan".

Maybe "volunteered" was the wrong word, but he made absolutely no effort to avoid the question or keep it off the record. He answered it, he confirmed it, he even bantered about it... on TV... on more than one occasion. Based on those casual confirmations (as BLP puts it): "it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public". The it-seems-like-he-doesn't-bring-it-up standard you are trying to invent here is not found in BLP.

We probably could rewrite the paragraph about his birth and childhood to only allude to the (apparently unspeakable) "female name" his parents gave him. But in doing so, we'd be depriving the reader of a better understanding of what he experienced as a boy named "Susan". He's made the choice to allow people to know that name. It isn't our place to overrule him. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:27, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

I'll point to his instagram page. He seems very open about his past life on there: there's a topless photo of him before he had top surgery, an old photo of him in a dress, etc. And yet in one post he carefully dances around his birth name: My Dad misgendered me for a very long time. He called me the name his daughter had. How comfortable he is with that name being public seems ambiguous. When you combine that ambiguity with the fact that reliable sources almost never mention it, it does not seem appropriate to include it, out of respect for his privacy and his dignity. (The Foundation says: take human dignity and respect for personal privacy into account when adding or removing information, especially in articles of ephemeral or marginal interest.)

Incidentally, regarding what he was called as a kid: in one interview he indicates he actually did go as Buck: I was raised as a Tomboy...I was raised as Buck. (Although maybe he just meant he was allowed to be himself as a kid and wasn't speaking literally.) (Also note that his birth name is not mentioned in that interview, even though the interview is very long, wide ranging, and personal, and covers everything from menstruation to suicide.)

Anyway I've added this to the article, per your concerns about clarity: [he was] assigned a female gender and female name. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 05:27, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

You're stretching pretty far there. By that logic we would take out the whole section about his childhood, because he was unhappy and sometimes he'd rather not talk about it. "Here's an interview with Donald Trump where he mentions his children Eric, Don Jr, Ivanka, and Barron, but not Tiffany. When she shows up, his smiles seem a bit fake to me. So I guess we shouldn't mention her by name in our article!" That's how your argument reads. Buck Angel also doesn't talk about suicide in every interview... does that mean we have to suppress that bit too? What about his drug use? His former marriages? Wikipedia is full of articles that include uncomfortable facts about people... we don't take those facts out on the assumption that the subject might not always feel like talking about them, or because you're uncomfortable with it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Buck Angel also doesn't talk about suicide in every interview... does that mean we have to suppress that bit too? Well, he talks about it way more than his former name.

Also I meant to respond to this earlier: It's important. I disagree that his old name is important (let alone important.) His old name wouldn't add anything substantive to the reader's understanding of him as a person. But it is a potentially sensitive piece of private info, so we shouldn't include it unless it's widely reported (it's not) or unless it's clear that he's OK with it being public (it's not, or at least not to me.) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 01:24, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Out of sheer curiosity, would it not be a good idea to contact him (e.g., via social media) and ask what he would think about his birth name being made public here? Wouldn't this settle the question? --179.235.214.89 (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Trans vs. transsexual

So, recently an IP account changed instances of the word trans to transsexual on the basis that Angel identifies as transsexual, and not transgender. Some of these edits were then changed back.

It's true that a couple months ago, Buck Angel said on Twitter: Transsexual is my identity... Transgender does not represent me. At all. Its my choice". Also, the word transsexual appears in Angel's Twitter bio.

....However, the word trans can stand for transsexual or transgender, per Merriam-Webster, and Angel has also identified as a trans man on Twitter.

As transsexual seems to be a word Angel strongly identifies with, I would include it at least once in the article. But there's no need to erase the word trans. WanderingWanda (talk) 04:02, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Birth date

Please find better references and enter the correct year 1972.

• Buck Angel at iafd.com

--Netpilots (talk) 23:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)