Talk:CIDA City Campus

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Expansion[edit]

I've today expanded the article with cited content, removed the clean up tags and added an info box. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Location[edit]

CIDA City Campus has only one campus, in Lyndhurst, Johannesburg. The previous academic campus in Commissioner street has been vacated as of Nov 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stu Round (talk • contribs) 16:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine Stu, but we need a WP:RS compliant source that says that. On WP, WP:V takes precedent over truth. And please remember to sign your comments with four tildes. Thanks. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Keith, I've already added one reference from IT Online here http://www.it-online.co.za/2012/03/30/new-facilities-for-cida-ict-academy/ although this more specifically talks about the ICT Academy, which is part of CIDA City Campus, and a further reference can be found here, on Page 8, http://fleishman.co.za/files/2011/08/Vuvuzela-November-2010.pdf

Lyndhurst is also the registered address of CIDA City Campus, here http://www.cida.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=162

Thanks, Stu Round (talk) 17:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK I think there are sufficient sources to establish the location as Lyndhurst. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments copied from my talk page to here[edit]

I have an interest in the article being accurate, it was I who created this entry. I've added a note about the location which is no longer Commissioner Street in Johannesburg. Not all of the recent changes at CIDA City Campus are reflected in press articles, although I've added some references where I can. The Commissioner Street campus was vacated in Nov 2012, so now the only campus is Lyndhurst. I asked you to check with me only because some of the changes you made are already out of date, even though they are referenced.

That said, I am new to Wikipedia so I do appreciate the improvements you have made to the layout and content. Also, please note that many articles about CIDA are ambiguous because of the confusion over brand identity between the Community and Individual Development Association and CIDA City Campus, which continues to use only the CIDA acronym but not the full name and is a separate entity. This is confusing to many journalists, although a new article should appear soon to clarify the situation which can then be cited. --User:Stu Brown

I will address the points above one by one:
  1. I am also interested in the article being accurate.
  2. It's great you created the article but be careful not to give an indication that you feel ownership for the article as it belongs to the community and anyone can edit it.
  3. WP articles contain info that has been reported in reliable secondary sources. If, for example, the university has moved, but it has not yet been reported in the press etc. Then we don't add info about the move until there are reliable sources to support that info. If the article is out of date, then that is OK. WP is not a newspaper its an encyclopedia. So out of date sourced info takes precedent over up to date info sourced only by personal knowledge of the editor. Personal knowledge is not grounds for the addition of content. We need to wait for a source. This may seem odd but its a policy that gives a safety feature and prevents the addition of all kinds of info based on individual opinions and personal interpretations.
  4. I'm happy to help improve the article and I think the addition of the infobox and school logo is a good improvement to the article
  5. I look forward to more sources that clarify CIDA City campus' relationship with its founding organization.

I will be making some additional changes to the article, based on WP policy. If there is something you don't like or don't understand I'm happy to discuss it here and come to an agreement together. Peace! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion part I[edit]

Ok thanks. That's all understood. I've included some links in the "location" section above that talk about the move, and have found a more recent one which clearly states that CIDA City Campus is located in Lyndhurst, here http://www.fm.co.za/business/fox/2013/05/09/lesson-in-business-admin

This article also states that Taddy Blecher left CIDA City Campus in 2007 http://www.fm.co.za/business/fox/2013/05/16/unlocking-potential

A further article is to be published soon, I'll post it once it's out.

Regards, Stu Round (talk) 17:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm happy to help improve the article and I think the addition of the infobox and school logo is a good improvement to the article"

Agreed, and thanks! Stu Round (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Stu,
OK,
  1. I've added the source regardaing Lynhurst location. I don't think we have any disagreement on that. The sources are clear.
  2. This source [1] says Taddy left Cida City Campus in 2007. We can use it for that part of the sentence only.
-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion part II[edit]

"According to the university's" information pack", CIDA City Campus continues to use the CIDA name without association to the Community & Individual Development Association under new management[8][9]" I'm sorry Keith, that's not correct. The information pack was cited to show the number of graduates. The citation for the separation from the Community and Individual Development Association was the history page on the CIDA City Campus website, here http://www.cida.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=46 Kindly revert that change.

Regards Stu Round (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Keith, I've now amended that to say "according to the CIDA City Campus website", the citation still pointed there anyway, I trust that is agreeable until a better citation is available. I've also added a referenced paragraph detailing how CIDA City Campus is now under Business Rescue. Regards, Stu Round (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sturns source[edit]

I've removed the text about business rescue. We need a better source than this[2]. A reprint of a letter is not a reliable secondary source and the Sturns letter only says a meeting was held anyway which is non notable since it has not been covered by the press etc. That is the standard we use on WP. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC) There is still a mention of the biz rescue using a secondary news source -- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The letter from Sturns is a legally binding document. Sturns are the appointed agents of the court. The letter states that the Business Rescue Plan was adopted by the creditors, which is precisely what it was cited to support.

Also, I'm not sure if it's accurate to say the institution is financially insolvent. It's a fine legal argument, because insolvent companies cannot legally continue to trade. Business Rescue is a process that is only applied where it is judged that the company is still viable. I think the term "financially distressed" would be more accurate. You can read the distinction here... http://www.werksmans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Werksmans-Basics-of-Business-Rescue1.pdf page 6. --Stu Round (talk) 23:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Legal documents are WP:SELFPUBlished WP:PRIMARY sources and have limited usage on Wikipedia. However, I am OK with the current text in the article which is supported by a WP:SECONDARY source and says:
  • In December 2012 CIDA City Campus became financially distressed and was put under the control of a business rescue firm. Citation: Jones, Gillian (May 9, 2013). "Lesson In Business Admin". Financial Mail.
So if you agree with that text then we can move on, unless User:CorporateM has some objection.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Taddy Bletcher[edit]

"In 2007 founder, Taddy Blecher left CIDA City Campus to begin another educational venture.[8]" That's not strictly accurate. He didn't leave because he wanted to start another educational venture, he started another venture because he was made to leave CIDA once donors discovered that Transcendental Meditation was effectively compulsory for students at CIDA City Campus. This too is stated in the Financial Mail article. Stu Round (talk) 23:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since we seem to be having some difference of opinion on how to most accurately represent the source. I have changed the text to include direct quotes so that there is no individual interpretation.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 04:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Parking content and source for discussion[edit]

I have removed the text above because:

  1. Its a primary source (the university)
  2. It is not notable
  3. It repeats info already mentioned in the article ie that CIDA CC functions separately from CIDA.
Hi Stu and Keithbob. I think companies themselves (primary sources) are the best possible sources when it comes to both organizational structure and how the organization prefers to refer to itself. For example, on Credit Suisse we have a lot of content about its management structure cited to their Articles of Organization and other documents available on their website. While this information is not notable, the media have a different editorial mission than us and aren't likely to cover the topic.
However, if it is already made clear that the organization spun-off, the fact that they would have a new management team seems redundant and obvious. I'm not sure the clarification regarding the acronym is needed either. So I would conclude the same as Kiethbob, just for different reasons. CorporateM (Talk) 23:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of that sentence was to address the ambiguity that still persists between the two entities, the same ambiguity that was previously reintroduced into this article before I explained the difference, and is repeated in many other news stories over the years. However, I'll concede this point for now until I have a better source to cite, given that it is made clear that the organisations separated and the founder left. Thanks for your input on this CorporateM. Stu Round (talk) 00:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ CIDA City Campus website History of CIDA City Campus , accessed 03 June 2013

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