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Archive 1

The Fudge Shop debate

hi, re; callander i wonder as i am a new user you could help by editing my article and not just deleting it, that would be more useful and more in keeping with what wikipedia is about? the place i mentioned was put there as it is a famous place in callander and also one of the main tourist destinations in town and i just wanted to share this with other users as i use wikipedia if i am visiting a place to find out some infomation on it? and the places i should see. many thanks j. joskins

To be fair you did make the same edit at the start of May and that was removed by someone else as it was not neutral and just sounded like an advert. Fraslet 13:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I was just going to have a look but it has been cleaned up by someone else already. Fraslet 13:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

i hope that you find the new wording to your liking, if it was indeed an advert would it not have a link to a website etc? as i said before i just love callander and stay there a lot on holidays and wanted to let people know about this fantastic place, and i feel it warrants as much a mention as other items listed if you look at say the page for cockermouth in cumbria there are loads of shops mentioned which are not even famous, as well as links to a pub? j.joskins

It isn't about being to my liking, it is about being neutral and encyclopedic though. Fraslet 15:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

so how is the cockermouth page allowed to mention and give links to shops and pubs? i understand it's not you but i am still learning on here and i only ask questions to learn more? i hope you don't mind many thanks john

No it's okay I don't mind. I don't watch the Cockermouth page as I don't know anything about it but it could be that either the junk has built up and nobody who cares has removed it or it could be that the junk does get removed but some very persistent people put it back in again. Fraslet 15:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the advertising of the Fudge Shop; Callander is full of shops but they are not all mentioned on Wikipedia, so no need to single out this one. If this one can be included then why not add The Christmas Shop, The Whisky Shop, James Bayne, Dalwhinny's, Chillies II, Edinburgh Woollen Mill, Tesco, etc, etc.... I've removed the advert. Thebensteads

every single shop mentioned is apart from the fudge shop is either new or a big chain were as the fudge shop is a independent and also is selling a famous product, if you look at other pages you will see other shops mentioned, so get a life Thebensteads why not add useful infomation to pages instead of deleating other people's!

If you want to argue over this then I'd suggest taking it to the article talk page. I would however suggest that this is an encyclopedia and not your personal property, several people have now removed what you have posted as being advertising and unencyclopedic. You might also try to remain civil. Fraslet 16:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that a brewery in nearby Kilmahog is not worthy of mention but a fudge ship in Callander is. Fraslet 16:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC) i think the last post is around the wrong way thebenstead thinks a pubs is worthy but he deletes a shop? why?

An explanation of why the descriptions should be this way.... I've added the reference to the pub in Kilmahog back in. The hamlet is made up of a couple of houses, the pub and the woollen mills. You cannot describe Kilmahog without mentioning that there is a pub there, as it is a local landmark. This is not advertising, it is a description of the hamlet. With respect to Callander and the description of the Fudge shop this is quite different. Callander is a town with many shops, banks, restaurants, bakers, butcher, cafes, etc, etc. Why pick out one shop in particular to mention unless it has specific importance to the town. If we start this then the Callander page will just become a Yellow Pages. Several registered users have removed the advertisement for the Fudge Shop as not being encyclopedic. Thebensteads 15 June 2007


I've been reading the Fudge Shop debate with interest. The question is whether the Fudge Shop is in some way an interesting piece of information about the character, culture, etc of Callander. For example, if you look up London you will see that Harrods is mentioned, and this is not as an advertisement. There are many shops in Callander, and a lot have their own history and pedigree; so, how to decide if the Fudge Shop warrants a special mention? My first check is to Google it and see if it gets any more than the normal 'advert' type results. Unfortunately, most are just advert links. There is one link from The Scotsman website including it in a list of recommended sweet shops, however this is probably not enough to warrant a mention on Wikipedia (e.g. would we mention a recommended Double-Glazer, Builder, etc?). I've been adding Gazetteer links to some Scottish town pages. The Callander gazetteer includes photos of the town; interestingly, the gazatteer includes a photograph of the Butcher shop and the Co-op, but no mention of the Fudge Shop. After considering this evidence, my view is that this shop does not have justification over other shops to appear on here and this could therefore be considered as an advertisement. Berjangles 12:55 BST 15th June 2007

It's not in the spirit of Wikipedia to keep undoing changes. Especially if those changes have been made by more than one person. I would suggest that this area is used for discussion first. There have been discussions and justifications here of why the reference to the Fudge shop is not encylopedic and is advertising. Unless someone can write a justification here to the contrary then this should not be included. Please justify in this discussion page before adding this unwanted description again. I would remind you that this has been removed by multiple users and only one person wants to keep the text in. I must assume that this person must have some ulterior motive for keeping this text, as it is continually replaced even though many others remove it. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is not the place for putting out your own personal information. Thebensteads 16th June 2007

further to the last answer i would like to add a few points; i added the fudge shop as part of my school work, we had to look at pages were we have visited and add a tourist site or something of relavance to a page on wikipedia. As i have visited callander a number of times on holidays i felt that this from my point of view was a valid entry, as a 15 year old it is always a highlight of my visit! as for only being me adding to it if you look in the history one other person added to the infomation i do not know this person and someone else also reposted it again today so that makes two other people who must support my case. another point that was raised was the other shops in the town and i can say from my point of view that the co op and the butchers etc are not tourist desinations, i have reposted a couple of times so i could get credit towards my coursework for it but if it so harms people for it to be there i will not repost it, but i can't see how it can be less important than a pub in kilmahog! this pub was removed from the callander page as a spam advert ages ago so is it the same person adding it in killmahog? i added the shop with no links etc. but the pub has links so it is clearly an advert under the rules that seem to be against me. i have spoke to my teacher about this and he can't see why a pub should be more important but maybe its just one rule for one and one for another as some towns list a few shops and tourist destinations and seem to be really useful sources for our school work on finding out about places and the type of people they cater for. i hope i havent upset anyone with my entry and wish you all the best. john joskin

these are the ref. for the other people that have added the fudge shop back or added to it to show it is a more balanced view than Thebensteads thinks 82.69.115.155 readded it

89.240.236.218 also added infomation to it so it isn't just me who has took the time with this entry john 89.241.171.228


The Fudge shop isn't an important tourist attraction, it's just another shop on Main Street selling stuff at tourist prices. Look at the incorporation date of the company, it's only been there a few years. I've seen more tourists in the Co-op. Grant.

it has been there a lot longer than that but only went ltd a few years ago i already checked that out. grant you seem to resent that callander is a tourist destination?


i have been following this thread for a little while as i live in callander, i can see both sides of the debate and thought i would add my own thoughts, i did re added the article myself but it was removed so that goes to show that it isn't just one person who thinks it is relavent, as for the pub to be allowed and not the fudge shop i feel the pub would be o.k if it did not have a link as i feel the link turns it into an advert. i have this morning been into the fudge shop and spoken to the owner who informed me he had been contacted by the boy who added it to this page and james seems to have done a lot of research even going as far to send a form to the owner to ask questions about the history of the shop and i have found out that they have been making confectionery for nearly 100 years. As a local that lives in the town i can see how this shop is important for the town as they are one of the main stops for coach parties in the town. and own 4 other shops and a putting green in the town so in turn have more retail outlets than anyone else in town. i do feel from what i have read that some people are trying to make out it is one person who thinks this item has relavence to this page but there are more than that i think it does to and i live here unlike other people who do not. As for there being more tourists in the co op i think grant needs to grow up as a 15 year old boy can put forward a better discussion than he seem s to be able to do? surly this lad is only trying to add infomation that is relavent to his age group and this site is for everybody not just some people who think they can censor over peoples views. i look forward to any replies Alfred


FWIW, I did a web search using Copernic looking for callander johnson fudge shop (all words) and got 235 hits (many relevant, but some not). I know this is a very rough and peripheral metric - but you don't get that sort of number for other small independent retail outlets, whatever the town.
I've followed this debate all the way through and, particularly in view of Alfred's local knowledge (above), my considered opinion is that a brief mention of this feature of the town should be included in Wikipedia. It seems that Johnsons not only have a long tradition in the Callander, but also produce something distinctive which is a tourist attraction of some significance.
BTW, I have no connection with Callander or Johnsons (and I rarely eat fudge) so I have no ulterior motives in expressing this opinion. -- Euchiasmus 12:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

i would like to thank Euchiasmus and alfred for their help john


Thanks for everyone's input into this debate. This is a good use of the Talk page and better than continual undo's. I would recommend that people making many additions to the content of Wikipedia get a user name to enable easier discussion and tracking of changes. Berjangles 10:55 BST 19th June 2007


what are you looking for citation on? let me know and i will do my best to find it. John joskins 10:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


I'm not looking for one myself, but there are a couple of statements on the Callander page that could be thought of as OR (see Wikipedia:No_Original_Research), without references showing verifiability (see Wikipedia:Verifiability), i.e.; - "At one time it was notorious for having 18 pubs to service a population of only 1800 people" - "made to an old and closely guarded family recipe". If not verified within a time period from adding the 'citation needed' mark then they are usually deleted. If you have references to verify these then please add. (193.195.185.190 14:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC))


i dont know anything about the population but for the fudge shop, as i did this bit for a school project i sent a questionair to the owner and he filled it in for me and in so told me about it being a secret recipe passed down from his great grandmother but how do i citate this. John joskins 16:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


Read Wikipedia:Verifiability; you need a reliable source. Unfortunately, your own questionnaire is likely to be viewed as original research. In this case a reliable source could include, for example, a tourist website that mentions the family recipe or the business's own web site. I had a quick look on Google but couldn't find anything. (193.195.185.190 07:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC))


I read with interest the further debate on this, and especially Alfred's reply, above. I disagree with some of Alfred's points;

- "...this site is for everybody not just some people who think they can censor over peoples views"; Yes, it's for everybody, but Wikipedia is at liberty to censor people's views. The site is about facts, not points of view. In fact this is one of Wikipedia's three content policies (see wikipedia:npov)

- "...james seems to have done a lot of research..."; Again this is against one of the three content policies, see wikipedia:NOR. Your own research cannot be included on Wikipedia; the information should be verifiable by other means.

I notice that a tag was added to this item to call for an external, verifiable reference, however this tag was deleted by the original author without adding a reference. This tag has now been replaced. To remove this tag, an editor should include a reference showing that the shop is indeed one of Callander's tourists attractions (and not just another tourist shop). I've been looking for a suitable reference, but not found one yet. If anyone can find one then please edit. (Berjangles 08:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC))

Annual Festivals

I've added the annual festivals section and started to populate this. I assume there are more festivals throughout the rest of the year that Callander is famous for, but I've not idetified them yet. Any help gratefully received. 193.195.185.190 10:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

I've put somthing in about the railway. For festivals someone should put something in about Beltane, this is a real claim to fame. It gets a mention together with Ben Ledi (I think) in the Golden Bough. I think there should be mentions too of the Auchenlaich Chambered Cairn (largest in Europe), the neolithic buildings recently uncovered at Clash Farm (fairly unique and nice internet links), Bochastle Roman Fort (ditto, recent excavations there too; see the Findo Gask Project website) and Dunmore iron age hill fort (as so well preserved). Think there should be a picture of the Ben and also of the "motte" in the Meadows. Maybe mention the Buchanan Burial Ground , Callander and Leny Castles too! Kilmahog (talk) 23:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

........great idea !! .....go for it...!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.195.185.190 (talk) 08:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Do any people in Callander celebrate Beltane in any way? If so, sounds like something to see; if not, then sounds like something to revive (maybe not the bit about sacrificing people, though). (Berjangles (talk) 09:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

Certainly as recently as the 1980s (and I think still now) local people would climb the Ben to see the sun rise on the summer solstice. I know that this is not quite Beltane (a cross quarter day between the vernal equinox and the summer solstice) but I think it still represents something. The reference in The Golden Bough is to the tradition of lighting a fire on the Ben and of young men jumping through it, and later the consumption of a sort of pancake (I'll need to look out the reference). It refers to Ben Ledi in the district of Menteith if I remember correctly. I think it all must come from the account in the late 18th century Statistical Account as the minister for Callander at the time supplied an unusually full report.

So perhaps better not suggest that people turning up in Callander on Beltane will find much going on! I do think though that the connection with the Ben is interesting though. There's a Wikipedia entry on Beltane and on The Golden Bough (not to mention The Wicker Man!) so I think it would be a good thing to mention briefly in a history section (with references)Kilmahog (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Phone Code

A large number of websites contain an incorrect spelling duplicating an error present in Ofcom's (previously Oftel) UK area code list for the last decade. 01877 was listed as Callandar in the official UK area code list and only recently corrected to Callander, see their Errata. 212.139.105.91 (talk) 08:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

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