Talk:Candleston Castle

Rewrite and restructure these sections

Edited section - strike out through info remaining in the article

==Encroachment of sands== (renamed Geography and more geographical info inserted) Candleston's elevated position was just sufficient to save it from burial under the coastal sands which started to encroach over the site and its lands shortly after its original establishment. this came from Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales since it was so closely paraphrased to the original text, used the original text and put in quotes  Done The nearby castle and settlement of Kenfig suffered this fate, having been abandoned around 1470, and is now completely submerged by sand. John Leland wrote in about 1539 : "There is a little village on the est side of Kenfik, and a castel, booth in ruine and almost shokid (choked) and devourid with the sandes that the Severn Se ther castiith up".<ref>The Itinerary in Wales of John Leland in or about the years 1536-1539. Ed. Toulmin-Smith,L. London, 1906. Vol 3, p29.</ref> Removed information covered by Kenfig Castle article  Done Historical evidence indicates that the process of be-sandment was very active in the later mediaeval period, from deterioration of climate, storms, higher rainfall and abnormal tides.<ref>Glamorgan-Gwent Archaeological Trust Ltd. www.ggat.org.</ref> Found source information from the ggat uk site (different main url). Reworded based upon source information  Done The promontory on which Candleston stands forms a relatively stable margin against the sands, occupying the eastern edge of what is now Europe's largest sand dune system.<ref>Countryside Council for Wales. www.ccw.gov.uk.</ref> Didn't find this info on this site - on another site found that it was among northwestern Europe's highest and most voluminious sand dunes relatively stable margin came from Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales  Done The site thus commands spectacular vistas over an extensive tract of lofty dunes, some up to 200 ft (61 m). high, had added cited info with a different height  Done <ref>Said to be the 2nd highest dunes in Europe. Glamorgan-Gwent Archaeological Trust Ltd. www.ggat.org.</ref> Found good citation for this  Done to the north, south and west. To the south, the Merthyr Mawr Sand Dunes cover the eroded former wooded manorial terrain of Merthyr Mawr Warren, essentially have this info  Done <ref>Like many old dune systems, many of the plants and animals at Merthyr Mawr are characteristic of those usually found in <s>woodlands.</s> (Countryside Council for Wales, www.ccw.gov.uk.)</ref> didn't find in ccw source found a list of animals and plants seen in the area from another source  Done covering some 900 acres (3.6 km2), and to the west cover what is believed to be a former related ancient settlement, known in Welsh as Tregantlow. have not found a reliable side for acreage so far  Done for now, unless happen upon the info Settlement - Candleston, ancient Welsh name is Tregantlow In 1823 the shifting sands exposed 300 yards to the west substantial remains of the manorial windmill, the foundations of further buildings reportedly having been seen nearby. Windmill portion was stated twice in the article, only used once in the edited version  Done Clearly, the chronically encroaching sands caused the decline of the manor and ultimate abandonment of the castle. Figuring out timing. CCW study says that Candleston Castle was abandoned in the 15th century due to dune encroaching on the castle. Royal "Inventory of the Ancient Monuments of Glamorgan says that it was inhabited until the 19th century. corrected my misinterprettation - it was Kenfig abandoned in 15th century, not Candleston. sentence starting "clearly" seems to be original research ==Function== The building is traditionally called a castle yet apparently was not originally built purely for defensive purposes. Sure seems that way, unable to find this in a published source so far - still looking though added portion and source saying it's a fortified manor The structure displays only late mediaeval fabric,<ref>Royal Commission report. op.cit.</ref>  Done suggesting a much later date than the nearby true castle of Ogmore, which was originally erected hurriedly as an earth and timber motte and bailey fort used in effecting the Norman Conquest of Glamorgan. necessary? There is no strong evidence to suggest that Candleston was likewise raised on the site of an earlier castle-ringwork, though the circular trace of the flimsy courtyard wall around the tip of the promontory may reflect an earlier structure.<ref>Royal Commission. p.408.</ref> reworded info, full citation  Done Its strategic position does however suggest some defensive function. added portion and source saying it's a fortified manor The presence of the former warren, or game preserve, immediately to the south may be significant. Candleston may have been designed as the residence of the Warrener, who whilst being an important feudal official, might not have merited, or been entitled to, a heavily fortified building. A local legend relates that it was the site of an ancient oratory belonging to a Celtic chapel. The stepped base of a Calvary Cross, of unreported date, with the fallen cross itself lying alongside, was found near the windmill uncovered by sand in 1823.<ref>Royal Commission Report. p. 417.</ref>  Done ==Structural description== The original block is more akin in internal dimensions to a Devon Longhouse, nowhere wider than 16 ft (4.9 m), in length 80 ft (24 m), yet included a second storey. Could not find a reliable source. Although prudently built in a defensive position, with substantial walls, it is likely to have been erected during a time of relative peace, since it was built without a tower. original research? That the tower was a subsequent addition is clear as it comprises only three new walls built against, but not bonded into, the south gable wall of the original hall and attached rectangular structure. The tower, containing a solar with a storey above and a vaulted undercroft, was designed to protect the gateway, and was probably erected during a period of political unrest. A very detailed structural and historical survey of the building is given in the report of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, which identifies four phases of construction. source in many citations Firstly in the 14th century the original long rectangular structure comprising two chambers and hall with added tower. Secondly 15th-century alterations to the hall. In the 17th century a short west wing was added to enclose the main entry to the hall. Finally, c. 1800 a stable block was added extending from the east wall of the tower. The identification and dating of the various phases is assisted by the different mortar types used. ==Merthyr Mawr lordship== Candleston was a mesne (i.e. "middle" or sub/under) manor within the fee of Merthyr Mawr, which was acquired by the St. Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan in the 12th century. The original St Quintin is likely to have been one of the Norman knights, by legend 12 in number,<ref>The legend of the 12 knights was established by Sir Edward Stradling, of St. Donat's Castle, in his 1561 book ''The Winning of the Lordship of Glamorgan out of Welsmen's Hands''.</ref> who conquered Glamorgan under Robert FitzHamon (died 1107), Earl of Gloucester, 1st Lord of Glamorgan. Each knight was granted his own lordship, held under the lordship of Glamorgan seated at Cardiff Castle which he was free to sub-enfeoff to his own followers or to other tenants.<ref>Nicholl. L. the Normans in Glamorgan.</ref> It is uncertain when the St. Quintins sub-enfeoffed Candleston, but there is no doubt that their original tenants were the de Cantilupe family. rather than "no doubt" used "it is believed" based upon source info - since there are no records, saying "no doubt" seems a stretch. The remainder of this section, including Cantilupe family subsection removed by User:Hchc2009. Reason: "Cutting back - this doesn't seem particularly relevant to the 14th century castle" in this version  Done - thanks! ==Nomenclature of the castle== The castle and manor took the name of its first feudal tenants, the Cantilupe family, which name itself probably derived from the Normandy manor of Canteloup (the modern French cartographic spelling)<ref>Michelin Road Atlas of France, London 1987.</ref> 10 miles east of Caen. The spelling universally used by modern historians is "Cantilupe", which is followed here. The name was spelt variously in ancient times as Canteloupe, Cantlow etc., Latinised as Cantilupo, Cantelo etc. The manor is likely originally to have been named "Cantilupe's-ton", signifying village/settlement of the Cantilupe's. ("Tun" in Old English/Saxon/Norse: Village).<ref>(Collins Dictionary of the English Language. 2nd ed. 1986.</ref> The Welsh version was Tregantlow, (Tre(f)-G(C)antlow) "Tref/Tre" in Welsh being the equivalent of Ton/Tun in English.<ref>Evans, W. A New English-Welsh Dictionary. Carmarthen, 1771. "Tref =Town".</ref> It occurs as Cantelowstowne(1596) and Cantloston(c. 1635)<ref>Lewis. Breviat,p.121; South Wales & Monmouth Record Soc. Pub. 1,(1932), p.173.</ref> Cantilupe's believed to be first tenants Primarily used Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales citation for this info - since most of the info was covered there. ==‎=Heiresses of Hopkin ap Howel Ychan of Tythegstone=== Edits also by Hchc2009: Removing undue weight - the long list of names and who they married isn't necessary Removing apparent OR, not closely linked to the history of the castle ===Cantilupe of Glamorgan== Edits also by Hchc2009: Long preamble cut back to focus on the history of the castle --thanks!

Comments appreciated.--CaroleHenson (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• I've trimmed a bit more back; given that this is a history of the castle, the long preambles prior to its construction feel like undue weight, and aren't supported by secondary sources on the castle. I'd recommend that we restructure a bit more, to ensure that the castle history flows sequentially. At the moment it starts in the 14th century, jumps through to the 19th, then recycles back again, which seems odd. Shouldn't be hard to do if others agree. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep, thanks! I saw that.

Will do!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

References

Close paraphrasing...

Looking at "An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan, Volume 3", I think we may have some copyvio and close paraphrasing problems in the article. e.g.

• "In the 12th century, Candleston was a mesne manor within the fee of Merthyr Mawr, which was acquired by the St. Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan but it is unclear when they sub-enfeoffed Candleston."
• "Candleston was a mesne manor within the fee of Merthr Mawr, which was acquired by the St. Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan..."

From an initial once-over, the problems look like they persist elsewhere when this source is being used. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

To help look at this, I've cut and pasted a direct quote:

Candleston was a mense manor within the fee of Merthyr Mawr, which was acquired by the St Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan (I.M. 7 and 19) in the 12th century. It is uncertain when the St Quintins sub-enfeoffed Candleston, but there is no doubt that their original tenants there were the Cantilupe family.

How about:

In the 12th century, Candleston manor passed to the St Quintin lords of Talyfan and Llanbleddian; The Cantilupe family are considered Candleston's first tenants.

I'll take a look at the rest of the content.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

CP 2

This: "the name Candleston is derived from their name, variously spelled Cantulupo, Cantilupo, Cantelo. In 1596 it was called Cantelowstowne and in 1635 Cantloston." I think falls into the point from the close paraphrasing article that there are some times not too many ways to paraphrase. I switched the order of the spelling of the latin names and switched the order of the names and years in the next sentence. Sometimes, there are not a lot of CP options; If I reorder the next sentence it gets out of chronological order.

Any suggestions, though, to help me out would be much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC) But I would love some suggestions on this one

Heiresses of Hopkin ap Howel Ychan of Tythegstone

This is interesting information, but I'm unable to find a source for this. The text mentions the book name, but does not have complete citation information.

Lewis Nicholl, whose family owned Candleston in the 20th century, researched the descent of the manor in his book The Normans in Glamorgan. He mentions the nine daughters of Hopkin,<ref>Hopkin may have come from Brecon or possibly descended from Griffith Gwyr or Gower poss. lords of Penrhos Castle</ref> who all married within Glamorgan, as being joint heiresses of the Cantilupe's of Candleston. It appears Hopkin's father Howel had married a daughter and heiress of "Sir William Cantilupe". Six of these daughters included Katherine, Maud,<ref name="Burke">{{cite book|author=Bernard Burke|title=The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, Comprising a Registry of Armorial Bearings from the Earliest to the Present Time, Volume 3 |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=X8UujEDqn9oC&pg=PA1037|accessdate=12 July 2013|publisher=Heritage Books|isbn=978-0-7884-3721-2|page=1037}}</ref> Gladys, Wenbllian, Joan and Elizabeth. Nicholl states that The Denys family at one time held a share of Candleston, whether via Joan le Eyre or Joan daughter of Hopkin is uncertain.

Does anyone have source info that ties Hopkin ap Howel, Howel or William Cantilupe's daughter to Candleston?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Sir Richard Herbert

Sir Richard Herbert was said to have inherited Candleston, but he died 21 years before his father-in-law, Mathew Cradock, if the 1531 date is correct. This is confusing to me. The dates also look to be too close. If Mathew Cradock was born about 1468 - and daughter's first child was born in 1501, that means he would have been a grandfather at about 33 years of age.

By the way, I wrote the Sir Richard Herbert article - one of my early articles before I knew better than to include "Sir" in the name of the article. Anyway, I've spot-checked sources and the sources seem to confirm that Sir Richard Herbert (d. 1510) was the son-in-law of Mathew Cradock, and the dates of death seem to be correct for both men, but I feel like I might be missing something.

Any comments or ideas would be much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)