Talk:Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise)

Fair use rationale for Image:CarbonCreek.jpg

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It would be really nice if this article could include an image again. Something like the following image, https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/ent/carboncreek.jpg (Archive) as it shows both Blalock and Boehmer in costume, as well as the town in the background behind them. (I'm not going to try and deal with the image submission process myself.) I did look in Wikimedia Commons to see if maybe there was a freely available Sputnik image I could add but I wasn't convinced a generic image like File:Sputnik-516.jpg would really improve the article, as it was only an minor detail to establish the Cold War time period but was not essential to the plot. -- 109.76.146.37 (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Using the Web Archive I found a copy of the StarTrek.com Media archive of Enterprise publicity photos. List includes four images from this episode (027) specifically. Using existing image that had already been used to publicize the epispode by StarTrek.com might help satisfy the WP:NFCC non-free image requirements but frankly the image are not good, and in this case there are many other images(Trekcore.com gallery) that would be better choices[1][2][3][4][5][6] and more representative of the episode. -- 109.79.64.54 (talk) 05:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Redistributing trivia

I removed the trivia section and created subsections instead per other episode articles. I also put back the reference to the drunk alternate take as this is a notable bit of production information and it's been released on DVD so it's verifiable. 68.146.41.232 (talk) 18:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Likely?

Seems OR to me. Lots42 (talk) 13:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 12:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

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Carbon Creek (Star Trek) → Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise) — Seems to be the normal disambiguation for episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise .—84.92.117.93 (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

• 'Support The standard disambiguation for TV episodes (not just Star Trek shows) is the put the name of the show in parenthesis. The name of this show is "Star Trek: Enterprise", so that is what should be used. TJ Spyke 22:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Velcro

The parenthetical remark beginning "In reality," duplicates much of the preceding sentence. Due to the fact that the preceding sentence requires a source, I'm not sure how to merge them properly. Any ideas? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

1950's Music References?

I came to this page to see if there were any references to the titles/artists of the 1950s country music selections playing in the Pine Tree Inn and perhaps elsewhere. Is there anyone here who knows of any source that provides this information? 68.10.81.239 (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Apparently no one knows, so I decided to do a google search on some of the lyrics of the only two classic songs heard over the dialog in the episode. I found a match to the first song heard playing, i.e., "while my yearning heart keeps saying you're not mine", and it turned out to be "Crazy Arms" by Ray Price. Upon searching a string of lyrics from the second song, "That lonesome moon up in the sky is shining blue tonight", I found no exact match, so I am still looking for that one. Any help would be appreciated. Also, I would like to include the results in the article if no one objects. 68.10.81.239 (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Fictional town

Should we include a citation that Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania, is a fictional town, unlike other Earth-based locales in the Star Trek Universe?Michaelopolis (talk) 03:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Book

The character Mestral appears again in the Star Trek novel "From History's Shadow"[7] Not sure if that is WP:NOTABLE enough to mention in the article though. -- 109.76.134.1 (talk) 11:43, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

The Star Trek novel Strangers from the Sky (1987) seems to have a similar premise to this episode, might be worth mentioning. -- 109.76.144.221 (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The 2016 novel Star Trek novel "From History's Shadow" can be borrowed from Archive.org, free login required. In another novel also by Dayton Ward titled "Elusive Salvation" Mestral appears again, and it is also available to borrow from Archive.org Elusive Salvation. Mestal might also appear in some of the Star Trek novels by Greg Cox (he is mentioned in the 2017 novel "Hearts and Minds"[8] there may be others). In hindsight, I should have started by checking Memory Beta which summarizes what Mestral got up to in the novels. -- 109.79.69.204 (talk) 14:08, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Ratings

I'm a little confused about the Nielsen Ratings for this episode, and trying to understand TV ratings in general. There seem to be different sets of ratings, the Fast ratings which are reported overnight and from a smaller sample of Nielsen households, and the Final ratings for the week. Maybe someone who better understands Nielsen Ratings can clear this up?

So when Variety says "Enterprise (4.84m, 2.4/7)" [9] I think maybe that is the early fast ratings [I don't know exactly what that means].
When others say the ratings were "Enterprise (UPN) - 3.0/5 (4.8 million)" [10][11] that seems to be the final ratings.

I'm still not entirely sure, but I will try to make the article clearer if I can. (This seems like something that would need to be sorted out properly if anyone is trying to get this article up to a higher quality rating.) In any case the numbers by themselves aren't so important as the analysis and commentary which explain to readers what they mean and how the this episode compares to others. -- 109.76.206.200 (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Variety, September 26, Enterprise (4.84m, 2.4/7) [12]

Variety, October 1, Enterprise (4.84m, 2.4/7 in A18-49) [13] "while up slightly from its season preem, was drawing roughly half the ratings of its second episode last year."

I'm starting to wonder if maybe Variety is reporting the key demographic A18-49, and other sources might be reporting for all adults. Clear as mud. [A18-49 does means Adults from 18 to 49 years old, and not all adults.] -- 109.79.85.185 (talk) 06:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I've taken another long look at this and I think I've got it figured out, and I've gone with the final ratings as 3.0/5 and 4.8 million viewers. -- 109.76.200.100 (talk) 04:21, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

For completeness, Zap2it reported the overnight fast ratings were 4.2/6[14] for September 26. There was nothing else going on that night that seems particularly worth mentioning, the top rated program that Wednesday at 8pm was the season premiere of Damon Wayans show My Wife and Kids on ABC, and Ed (TV series) also had its season premiere, and The WB was showing Wesley Snipes Blade. (I've already mentioned elsewhere that Enterprise was followed by new episodes of The Twilight Zone.) -- 109.79.67.149 (talk) 06:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I decided to add some context about the ratings of other first run science fiction or fantasy genre shows that week, which put Enterprise in 7th place.[15] I considered comparing Enterprise to Firefly (4th) (second episode, I'm fairly sure) as they were more similar to each other than any of the other shows, but it seemed more relevant to compare the raw number of viewers and note that Alias (admittedly the second season premiere) had audience numbers that were more than double what Enterprise managed. I also asked myself, what about other contemporary shows like Stargate SG1 or Farscape? But they were broadcast in syndication (much lower audience numbers even at their peak) and not directly comparable, also for this episode specifically new episodes didn't come out at this time of year anyway. There does seem to have been a new episode of Andromeda that week though. So broadly speaking there were a lot sci-fi shows on television that Enterprise had to compete with, but in terms of specific relevance to this episode there does not seem to be any relevant details that could reasonably be highlighted. -- 109.77.198.2 (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Interview with J. Paul Boehmer

J. Paul Boehmer did an interview for StarTrek.com in three parts.[16] The old video links are dead but TrekToday briefly quoted the video[17] and noted that in regard to his performance as Mestral he was already a fan of Spock and Leonard Nimoy.

StarTrek.com reposted the video with Boehmer: Part 1 (7m24); Part 2 (6m28); Part 3 (5m29).

In Part 1 he is asked about his background, audition, Voyager: Drone, including a preview clip from that episode. Part 3: his favorite captain (Picard, Janeway, but it has to be Kirk); conventions; and Zero Hour (but he cannot actually answer most of the questions).

Part 2, is all about Carbon Creek. Partial transcript follows:
Question: "What was it like to play Mestral in Enterprise?"
(Answer begins at about the ~20s mark)
He thinks they spent four days on location and four days in studio shooting the interiors.
45s: (paraphrase) It was the first episode back, everyone was excited, and fresh.
1m20s: "Jolene is so funny and so sweet"
(paraphrase) they've been together so long (the production staff) it's like being in a theatre company
2m10s: "Did you watch original series episodes to prepare to play Mestral?"
I'm going to fess up, I'm a total geek for the original Star Trek. What can I say?
When I played Mestral I didn't really make a point of going back and watching episodes,
because, I think once a week on the Sci Fi channel, all day long they show classic Star Treks, so... I catch a few of those every week.
So I didn't really make a point of going back and watching them in particular but they are pretty present in my mind.
3m continues talking, mostly about Nimoy
4m25 Question: "What character was the most fun to play?"
One ... and Mestral, both.
5:55 Mestral was really exciting for me only because I grew up on Star Trek and Spock and the wonderful archetype that Leonard Nimoy was able to create

I'll come back to this later and try to make use of it in the article somehow. Video links are a pain to reference because they always break. Unless I can find a version of the interview in print, I'm probably going to have to kludge a reference with more than one source and careful quotes. -- 109.76.144.188 (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

It's far from perfect but I've kludged together several sources into one reference, and included comment from Boehmer about his love of Star Trek and reverence for Leonard Nimoy's Spock. On a different day I might have phrased it entirely differently but at least it is included now.[18] A while back I was lucky enough to find a comment from Blalock, she liked the episode (but she loved Impulse).[19] I think it is interesting that Ann Cusack who played Maggie is the older sister of John Cusack and Joan Cusack but I didn't find an excuse to mention it in the article.

Ideally I wish the article had more comment from the writers, or maybe the director. Apparently the Bluray included an audio commentary from writer Chris Black so maybe someone with access could find more information there. A screenshot from the episode would be nice too. There are a few things I might do differently, bits and pieces I might rewrite or rephrase, a bit of spit and polish, but I'm satisfied with the quality of the article and I think I'm almost done here. -- 109.76.132.93 (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Locations

Johnnie's Market

"Johnnie's Market is the actual small town market there."

Business listings:

• https://us-food.info/company-johnnies-market-general-str-in-crestline-ca-10601
• https://www.yelp.com/biz/johnnies-market-and-general-store-crestline

"The sign in the show was paid for by Paramount and is still there."

Using Google Street view you can see the sign:
Image capture October 2012 https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2468779,-117.3012402,3a,75y,94.12h,77.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxDip7UtNj1sc-XbJUTT_SQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
but only from certain angles, looking at it from another angle you get given other images,
Image capture from February 2019 https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2469781,-117.3011371,3a,75y,175.33h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPXg-iglWv8IEMqYD50c1bA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
The building has been painted and the sign changed to "Magic 7 Family Market". It seems as if the business changed ownership in 2014.

Predictably enough the claim that something was "still there" has gone out of date. If anything it is a surprise that that it lasted over a decade. Now that I've done all the necessary due diligence I'm going to update the article and remove the "still there" claim. -- 109.79.169.92 (talk) 03:14, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Pine Tree Bar and Grill

(Memory Alpha notes that...) The exterior of the building that was used for the outside of the Pine Tree Bar and Grill is a laundromat, called the "Wash Tub". As of 2021 you can see it from Google Maps Street View.[20] I'd like to add more about these filming locations to the Production section but without a reliable secondary source to confirm the details, it is probably not allowed. -- 109.78.194.99 (talk) 02:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Reviews

As far as I can tell Ain't it Cool News didn't actually do a full review this episode, but in their (2002) review of another episode they said "the series demonstrated with 2.2 (“Carbon Creek,” aka “Vulcan ‘57”) that the show can still knock one out of the park given half a chance."[21] Maybe that praise could be squeezed into the Reception section. -- 109.79.175.162 (talk) 00:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

When the season 2 DVD was released (2013) Herc (the reviewer at AICN) called the episode one of his favorites.[22] He also notes the strong "City on the Edge of Forever" vibe. -- 109.79.175.162 (talk) 00:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I liked the review of Carbon Creek from Ex-AstrisScientia too. The review was critical of the episode, again comparing it to the Voyager episode 11:59 and going so far as to call it "pointless" but they did praise the performances "Mestral is yet another refreshing take on the typical Vulcan" and concluded was a good episode and gave it 6 out of 10. -- 109.76.132.93 (talk) 00:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Review from Tim Lynch via Psi Phi 2 out of 10. (Tim Lynch[23])
Review from Jamahl Epsicokhan of Jammer's Reviews 1.5 out of 4 stars (downgraded from an initial 2 star grade) "indifference"
Review from CJ Carter - ScoopMe "a derivative tale, it's largely enjoyable"
The Cynics Corner - David E. Sluss 4.5 out of 10
Review from Monkey's Place 10 out of 10
Review from Trek5 Captain Mac 5 out of 5
Review from Trek 47 8 out of 10
Review from SyFy Portal - Michael Hinman C grade
Review from TrekWeb "has its moments ... no surprises". Compared to Voyager 11:59 and contrasted with the Star Trek novel Strangers from the Sky by Margaret Wander Bonnano.
Review of Season 2 DVD from IGN in 2012 criticized the series for its "recycled Trek plot devices and characters. Carbon Creek may as well be entitled The City on the Edge of the Appalachians".
Not a review, but in July interview (Beacon Journal, Ohio) Rick Berman teased the episode premise "Vulcans were keeping an eye on Sputnik when it got launched" while complaining about the script of the season premiere having been leaked on the internet.

I know these don't all meet Wikipedia standard for reliable sources but I was looking them up anyway so I include them here for completeness. Also when reviews keep mentioning the same things it is reassuring that those are details worth highlighting from the few more reliable sources in this encyclopedia article. -- 109.78.193.194 (talk) 06:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Episode title

While doing a deep dive for sources I found out that the Clint Eastwood film Pale Rider also includes a "Carbon Creek". The town of struggling goldminers is Carbon Canyon, California, and the river where they are looking for gold is called Carbon Creek.[24] (It was set in California but filmed in Idaho.) I do not have anything to suggest this is more than a coincidence, maybe one of the writers was a big Clint Eastwood fan and it was an intentional nod to the film, but chances are they just liked the name sound of it. -- 109.78.199.44 (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Also there is Carbon Canyon Dam, in Orange County, California, that impounds "Carbon Canyon Creek". These similar placenames in California may have been familiar the writers. Can't say for sure if that's where the name came from but maybe I'll find an interview with writer Chris Black or something eventually. I always like to have an explanation of how the episode titles came to be chosen if possible, and sometimes the name choice turns out to be significant. -- 109.76.143.155 (talk) 05:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)