Talk:Carrauntoohil/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Carrauntoohil. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Name?

This is marked on the OSI maps as Carrauntoohil. What is the correct title?

zoney ♣ talk 16:45, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Should we not standardise on the OSI reference? zoney ♣ talk 11:10, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've added redirects from all variants of Car(r)a(u)nt(o/u/w)ohil(l). Google hitcounts are:

Carrantuohill   12000
Carrauntoohil   6130
Carrauntoohill  775
Carrauntuohill  468
Carrantoohill   219
Carantuohill    156
Carrantuohil    155
Carrantoohil    125
Carauntoohill   102
Carrauntohill   78
Carrauntuohil   52
Carauntoohil    35
Carrauntohil    27
Carrantwohill   16
Carrauntwohill  15
Carantoohill    14
Carauntohill    9
Carantoohil     7
Carantuohil     7
Carrantohill    6
Carantohill     3
Carantohil      1
Carauntohil     1
Carrantohil     1
Carantwohil     0
Carantwohill    0
Carauntuohil    0
Carauntuohill   0
Carauntwohil    0
Carauntwohill   0
Carrantwohil    0
Carrauntwohil   0

Joestynes 06:42, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Google hits are not the definitive source for such decisions, but I would suggest that as we have an official source (OSI) using "Carrauntoohil" and "Carrantuohill" is only twice as popular - we should move this to "Carrauntoohil". zoney ♣ talk 12:24, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The only correct and proper spelling of the mountain's name is Corrán Tuathail. Anything else is meaningless anglicised gobbledegook. Corrán Tuathail is the form used on the latest map of Na Cruacha Dubha to be published by the OSI, which is a marvellous publication showing the names of the peaks in their original and unbastardised forms apart from one or two minor spelling errors. The two other main peaks are Binn Chaorach agus An Chathair. We really must follow the Scots who have for the most part resisted anglicing native Gaelic placenames into the kind of unintelligible bullshit we see on OS maps in Ireland.

Alan, Dublin

Requested move

The name given by the Ordnance Survey of Ireland should be considered authoritative, and certainly more authoritative than Google.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Support. Stemonitis 09:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Support. Seabhcán 10:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Oppose Halibu tt 16:42, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Support Izehar 19:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Support zoney ♣ talk 00:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Add any additional comments

Comment The move to the OSI name should in any case be supported by the Google results, in that it's no less than half as popular as the spelling currently in use. That is to say, we aren't suggesting an "official" name that isn't common (which wouldn't make sense, the official name is not always used in Wikipedia when it's obscure and a common name exists). zoney ♣ talk 00:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment Google tests aren't always accurate. Scotch Whisky is more common that Irish Whiskey. If Google tests were given that much authority, moving Irish Whiskey to Irish Whisky would be an option. There are more results for Whisky. Izehar 20:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment Request fulfilled. Rob Church ^Talk 23:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirects?

How about putting in a few redirects from other spelling varients? 'Twould do no harm.

TRiG 13:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added two of the most obvious redirects of all, Corrán Tuathail and Corran Tuathail, which seem to have missed out on the earlier orgy of redirection. I believe a lot of English-language sources use the Irish names now, which seems sensible given the number of English variants and the general ugliness of anglicised Irish names. --Blisco 19:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe it means Tuathal's sickle, I think it means 'reversed sickle'. Any takers?

December 2005. Mountain or Hill?

Anyone know the origin of the cross on the peak? Anyone offended by me calling it a 'hill' rather than a mountain. Irish people tend to call it a mountain - but considering the Alps and such I feel 'hill' is more realistic. Seabhcan 11:21, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Britannica says anything over 640 m is a mountain. Ben-w 22:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

A mountain is generally higher and steeper than a hill, but there is considerable overlap, and usage often depends on local custom.

(Quoted from this article, with emphasis added.) Carrantouhill is emphatically not a hill. It's the highest mountain in Ireland.

TRiG 13:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I walked the whole horseshoe in 2001. The trip across Caher was very safe on objective hazards (i.e. hardly any danger of rockfall), but possibly heavier on subjective hazards, in that there no paths leading to the ridge, and the ridge is pretty narrow at a spot, which may cause dizziness by some. It may be worth mentioning.

As for the cross, it was mentioned that it was in memory of two men who died up there. Possibly local herders, I admit that it wasn't too easy to understand the local's English for me as a foreigner. --Kjetil Kjernsmo 12:33, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What is done in Italy, my country, may not be relevant to a discussion about an Irish mountain, but since we have lots of mountains here and I have a certain experience of mountaineering, I'd say mountain is a lot better than hill in this case. It's the highest peak of Ireland; there is a remarkable drop in relation to the surrounding terrain; the summit is quite sharp in shape. Here even peaks lower than 1,000 meters are called "monti" (mountains/mounts) when those requirements are met. --93.40.87.49 (talk) 12:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Translation of Name

Hi User:Asarlaí, I saw that you reverted my inclusion of the translation of the name from Paul Tempan's document. Your profile indicates that you have expertise (or at least a strong interest) in Irish language translations. My reading of Paul's "Hill and Mountain Names" is that the translation is "Tauthal's Sickle", and he lists this in his "Name Origin and Meaning" column. He does add in the notes that there was a singular reference that could imply another meaning, but it was not sufficient for him to change his primary translation of "Tauthal's Sickle". However, is there more dispute than this regarding the translation? If there was not, I would list the translation (as Paul is a quality source), however, if the dispute is greater, then we should note the source of the dispute in the "Naming" section (and it would stop future people doing what I did) ? A minor issue but given it is Ireland's largest mountain, I think it is worth closing off. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

As there's some uncertainty over the origin and meaning, I thought it'd be better to give no translation in the lead, but to deal with it in the 'Name' section instead. However, as "Tuathal's sickle" is the most common translation, I won't oppose it's inclusion if editors feel it should be there. ~Asarlaí 16:26, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough Asarlaí, I'll replace the translation in the lede and add a small footnote, but we also have this Talk Page discussion, and the "Naming" section to note the wider discussion. Others may come with other facts, but I think Paul's book is a quality source to use as a default. thanks for coming back. Britishfinance (talk) 16:36, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I see you have already done that ! thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Height?

So how high is it? This article says 1039m, Geography of Ireland says 1041m, CIA says 1041m. Demiurge 16:24, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And to complete the set, the Ordnance Survey of Ireland says 1040 m. (Discovery 78, 1:50:000) Gdr 21:57, 2005 Jun 26 (UTC)

Here Ordnance Survey Ireland[1] says 1038 m. Finnrind 10:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This really needs to be sorted out ASAP.
We have reliable sources claiming that the height is 1038m, 1039m, 1040m and 1041m...
References for 1038m:

References for 1039m:

References for 1040m:

References for 1041m:

What do we do? ~Asarlaí 16:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I would go with OSI figure of 1038m. Bjmullan (talk) 18:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The OSI link above no longer works but this one still show 1038m, however, I would really like to see a reference to an actual survey because Lugnaquilla has the same issue and for that I have seen two different heights from two different OSI publications. ww2censor (talk) 21:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd go with either Mountainsviews (1039m) or Peakbagger (1041), because hundreds of people climb these mountains and I'd say the use equipment like GPS Altimeter stuff. And also, I've seen many sites which say Carrantuohill is 1,050 metres. --89.100.72.226 (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Just because hundreds of people use these sites doesn't mean they're any more likely to be accurate. And generally GPS altitude accuracy is nowhere near good enough to distinguish between height differences of only a few metres. As ww2censor states above, data from an actual survey (by professionals, such as the OSI) would be far more reliable. I'd suggest using the most recent data by the OSI. (Incidentally I guess this link is the updated version of the broken link above, showing 1038m.)

--David Edgar (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

To ensure there is no ambiguity about this issue. Britishfinance (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

mountain height

carrauntuohill is 3414 feet high-always has been -has it shrunk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amazon543 (talk • contribs) 21:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

According to the OSI it is officially 3406'. However, look at some maps and you will see different heights. The same goes for Lugnaquilla which is 3039ft/926m in the article but the OSI list has it as 924m, but is now listed as 3035ft/925 m in the article. Go figure; I dont' know who to trust unless a new survey is done for Irish mountains. ww2censor (talk) 01:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to close this off, as there are old references to 1,041 metres on various websites for Carrauntoohil. The three main entities that measure Carrauntoohil's height are the Ordnance Survey Ireland (OSi), MountainViews Online Database, and the Database of British and Irish Hills (DoBIH – who use MountainViews for Irish peaks). All three are referenced in the height infobox for Carrauntoohil as at 2018-2019, with 1,038.6 m (I just cannot find an online version of the OSi giving the 0.6m part, but their maps quote 1,039m (rounded up), while their blog quote 1,038m (rounded down); however, the accepted height is 1,038.6 m. Britishfinance (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To ensure there is no ambiguity about this issue. Britishfinance (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mention of Carrantuohill in lede

IvanScrooge98 and Guliolopez. There are not two notable spellings of Carrauntoohil in operation; there is only one spelling of "Carrauntoohil". This is per the official Ordnance Survey Ireland 78 mapsheet (you can search for it online), per academic Paul Tempan's Irish Hill and Mountain Names database (a ref used in the article [2]; and the definitive database of Irish mountain names), and Logainm (the Placenames Database of Ireland). The mention of other spellings in the body (added by myself; I have written most of this article), are really mis-spellings of the actual name, and are not in themselves notable enough to be in a lede. Carrantuohill is not a notable spelling of the mountain. Britishfinance (talk) 09:37, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Britishfinance. Hi IvanScrooge98. Britishfinance, I agree entirely. And have restored the two most common English spellings (as were there for some time previously). And have removed the less common misspelling. (I don't think I've ever seen an article which included bolded misspellings in the lead alongside official and common names). I have also removed the "see other spellings" link in the lead. (I don't think I've ever seen this type of thing done before either). In general I would note that, with the Anglicisation of placenames (mainly formalised during the late 18th and early 19th century, including during John O’Donovan's surveys in the 1820s and 1830s), multiple variants of almost every placename in Ireland were captured. Effectively the name of EVERY mountain, townland, lake, and geographical feature in the country could list several (if not lots) of variants. Listing or linking to all in the lead would seem to be unnecessary and distracting. The two most common English variants, followed by the most common Irish variant (as expected by the manual of style for titles in Ireland-related articles) would seem to be more than sufficient. Guliolopez (talk) 09:55, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Guliolopez, that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 10:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Guliolopez and Britishfinance: I just included it as I had seen it online (e.g. [3][4][5]) with no mention of it being a misspelling. I thought it was notable enough to be shown in the lead. Shouldn’t we follow common usage alongside official one?

イヴァンスクルージ九十八 _（会話）

15:05, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

IvanScrooge98, if you do a search in the Irish Times (Ireland's best-edited newspaper), you will find almost all references are to Carrauntoohil (and even some to Carrauntoohill) but little else. There are lots of mis-spellings on Tripadvisor etc.; but not in a notable way. As Guliolopez says, there are variants of many anglicized versions of Irish placenames, however, several entities, like Ulster academic Paul Tempan (bible on Irish mountain names), and Logainm (the Placenames Database of Ireland, to which Tempan is an advisor), have gone through many to cut down to the "correct" name, and also record notable variants of spelling. I have been going through Irish mountain articles to address that. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:54, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.