Talk:Catacombs of Paris/Archive 1

Archive 1

Encyclopedias doesn't advise things

What kind of a dictionary whould advise the reader to do or not do things, so i have removed "Unofficial visits to the underground quarries of Paris is an illegal and possibly dangerous activity. We neither condone nor advise such visits." Wikipedia is suposed to be neutral, isn't it?

The quote you're referring to isn't Wikipedia's position on unnoficial visits to the catacombs. It's probably something said by the French police itself (hence the different formatting that passage has). Nobody is advising people to do things.

Also, Wikipedia is not a dictionary.--Kaonashi 16:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Very well, what kind of ENCYCLOPEDIA advises things then? I do not doubt that the french police would make such i statement but that's irrelevant. It is clearly intended to be a disclaimer.

tagging

This is a slang term that the average Wiki reader can be expected to know. The sentence should be made less opaque.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kdammers (talk • contribs) .

Dealt with it.--Drat (Talk) 08:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure graffiti is specific enough, since in the catacombs a clear difference is made between art (murals, etc.) and tagging, which is usually just a name scrawled across the walls. Also, there is an effort made to search out & appreciate older graffiti (for example, the 1855 inscription "Vive Napoleon III Empereur" - "Long Live Napoleon III, Emperor"), which is seen as a part of the catacombs' history. (by the way, I am IP 82.98.9.227, I made a lot of the recent edits to the page) -- hibou 09:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

families in the catacombs?

I've never (ever) heard of any 19th century families living in the catacombs, is this documented somewhere? I suspect it's just a rumor. -- hibou 09:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The Catacombs Today

I made some extensive editorial changes to this section in an attempt to improve organization and also to remove some colloquial language. I might also suggest that the stub on cataphiles either be merged with this one or deleted altogether. --Todeswalzer 06:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your revisions! Personally I think the cataphile subculture is fascinating and deserves its own page. Though of course I may be biased! To flesh it out a bit, the page could also contain examples of tracts as well as some of the really excellent underground photography that's out there -- such as Chuen Li Chan and her light effects as seen in her book. It could also have a bit about the evolution of the cartography (see this site) and a more extensive bibliography. -- hibou 16:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sewers, Metro?

I was in the Catacombs for about 15 times or so over this last summer, and I'm willing to add more info if someone can perform some editing for me. Also, as far as I know, there are no entrances from any sewers or metro, though there is one on an abandoned train line. Also, one should also be careful, a lot of Cataphiles don't want this information up. :\ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DWRZ (talk • contribs) .

Can you provide some useful, reliable sources? Writing based directly on your own experiences is original research. As for those who don't want the info up, too bad for them.--Drat (Talk) 08:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. The explographie map doesn't show any entrances besides the Petite Ceinture and manholes that lead from the surface all the way down. However, the explographie map does get some entrances wrong (on purpose because it is a publicly available map and the Cataphiles do not want the IGC to close those down), there are other maps (Plan Despe, for exmaple) that show correct entrances, none of these come from the Metro or Sewer either. The Atlas du Paris Souterrain (available from Amazon.fr, considered one of the "Bibles" of the Catacombs) also shows how the networks (sewers, metro, and galleries) are completly separate from each other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DWRZ (talk • contribs) .

You're not completely correct. There are places in which the networks overlap. And even the Despe (let's say the Giraud-Lafuine-Despe, slightly more correct) doesn't show every entrance. Or even every room. So keep in mind that just because you haven't used a certain entrance does not mean it doesn't exist :D -- hibou 09:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Main Point:Yes, I'm aware of Despe not showing every single entrance or room. I'm not basing this fact on my own experience, I've used only about 5 entrances/exits in the Catas. In terms of reliable resources and not personal experience or MYTH....there is no Documented entrance from the sewers or metro. I'm just wondering where is the supporting evidence for the contrary? Personal Experience: The networks do not overlap as far as I know (looking at Documents), they are meters apart. There are places where the sewer leaks from above into the tunnels, but that's not an entrance. In addition, as far as I've known from the Cataphiles I've asked... there are entrances from the street, from the PC, from a parking garage, etc. but not from sewers or metro.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DWRZ (talk • contribs) .

Catacombs vs. Carrières

The entire Parisian sub-terrain tunnel network is popularly called "the catacombs", but since this is an encyclopaedic publication, I think it important to make a distinction between the catacombs cemetery, or "catacombes officielles", and the rest of Paris' renovated mines, "les carrières". This way we could not only retain all verifiability (reference works refer to Paris' underground in this way - unlike "popular" web-sites and personal pages), but make some room for some elaboration about the origins of the "Porte d'Enfer" underground cemetery - its Les Innocents cemetery origins, for example.

Perhaps we could move everything "K'ta" to a "Kataphile" (or "Cataphile") article - as the nocturnal habits of the same concern more the person than the history of the place. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 06:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

As it doesn't seem to pose any problems to other contributors, I'm going ahead with the separation - problems such as the Météor Line 14 do not concern the catacombs, but rather Paris' abandoned carrières in general. All the same, feel free to comment. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 08:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

L'Empire de la Mort / The empire of the Dead

I heard this name as a specific place/catacomb in France and I cannot find mention of it in the article. I was wondering if there was a reason for this. Just another guy trying to be a Chemical Engineer, Nanobiotechnologist, and Mathematician (talk) 22:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's written above the entrance to the main part of the ossuary once you're underground - specifically "arrete! c'est ici l'empire de la mort" which mans something like "Stop! this is the empire of the dead" Very atmospheric place, well worth a visit! Chimera (talk) 20:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing info

Was there a reason to remove everything about unauthorized access? Some info I considered useful was lost with those edits. Also, I personally consider cataphiles to be an "integral part" of Paris' catacombs and think they "deserve" a mention & linking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.77.96.249 (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, it's important. Without it, the description of what the catacombs are a grossly inacurate. And it's widely documented (if not in english, at least in french documents. but that's still a valid source). The catacombs are not limited to the part opened to public visits. And it doesn't have ONE entrance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.41.72.26 (talk) 14:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

With further reading, I realise that there IS a mention of the unauthorized exploration. But it's in the article "Mines of Paris". Maybe it should just be more obvious that most parisians reffer to the whole underground network as "the catacombs". I mean, if someone hear a french talking about "the catacombs" and comes here, he'll probably miss the fact that they where actually talking about Paris's quarry. And miss informations about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.41.72.26 (talk) 14:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

missing info

I visited the catacombs last month, and I am wondering a couple things that I figured would be in the article. Is burial in the catacombs continuing to this day? If not, when did it stop? If so, how is it decided who gets moved there? Also, approximately how many people's bones are currently down there? Can anyone add this info to the article? Thanks, Doctormatt 21:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't state the source of this right now, but if I remember correctly: Bodies were only moved in one period, I'm pretty sure it was during the 1780's. The number I remember was 6 million dead, but that's less certain, I need to check again. No more bodies have been moved in the last century for sure, in the 19th century maybe, but unlikely... As for who got moved down there... I think they just picked certain cemeteries (I remember one cemetery was "of the innocents"), probably people who were not very important. Hope this helps. -DWRZ 17:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, if we could get references for that kind of information we could add it to the article. Anyone? -- Cheers, Doctormatt 22:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I can help here - remains from condemned Parisian churchyards all through the 19th century, and the spot was used as a temporary morgue during the 1870 "commune" revolution (but I doubt any of the bodies stayed there). I'll check my sources and make some updates soon. THEPROMENADER 06:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The last comment on this topic was made in 2007, but nonetheless I figured I would ask that should this information be added to the article, please make sure to reference it. This article is severely in need of reference works and citations, and every little bit counts - especially when an article is in the position this one is in, where it lacks any references at all! Thanks! Spiral5800 (talk) 14:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

"Cataflics"

I think it would be interesting to have a little information on the specialized police force that patrols the catacombs. Unfortunately information seems to be limited, and most info on the web is en francais. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.76.87.31 (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

If you can give me a reference page in French, I would be happy to translate it and reference the information in this article. If you do dig this info up, and need it translated, just make a note on my talk page and I will have at it. Spiral5800 (talk) 14:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Lack of citations

This article has virtually no inline citations, and the one link in the "references" section at the bottom of the page is a broken/dead link. I therefore added the refimprove template as well as a template pointing out that the article relies on a source which is a dead link. I would also add the single source template, but that would be unnecessary considering the two templates that I already added, and also because the single source is that dead link.

At some point in the hopefully near future, if some helpful users are able to dig up some decent reference pages from some reliable sources and add inline citations where they are appropriate, then these templates should be removed or replaced with templates that reflect the improving quality of the references. At this point in time, however, the article is severely lacking in its citations/references, which is why I put up the templates. I appreciate any and all comments. Spiral5800 (talk) 13:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The templates were removed without any commentary, and as you can see, without any post here on the talk page. I re-added the templates, but replaced the vague "refimprove" template with the more precise "No footnotes" template, as the page does have a few external links listed at the bottom. These external links may contain enough information to cite this entire article, of that I am uncertain. I am uncertain, of course, due to the lack of any inline citations. It would be great if those external links were turned into proper references for the page, in which case they would also appear in the "references" section and clarify where information has come from throughout the article. Spiral5800 (talk) 16:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

photos, important geographical points, legends, themes, etc.

I'm very willing to share some photos, as well as discuss certain famous locations in the Catacombs. The "Atlas du Souterrain de Paris" offers a pretty interesting way to do this, as does urbanadventure.org. I'm open for ideas, I have several random passages written down, but I've never written an article on wikipedia before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DWRZ (talk • contribs) .

"urbanadvernture.org" doesn't appear to exist - was there a typo or is the website just no longer up? Jessie szekely (talk) 14:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Vagrant Story...?

I removed the mention of Vagrant Story...the game occurs in a fictional world, not Earth, and the catacombs have nothing to do with Paris. 67.9.76.108 00:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. but deus ex occurs here on earth and the catacombs in the game are the catacombs of paris, this is quite an important part of this cult-game (maybe someone is capable of comparing a screenshot with a real photo)...i think the entrance to the catacombs is quite realistic in the game...

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.145.182.30 (talk) 16:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The Cask of Amontillado

From Poe's history: "Its walls had been lined with human remains piled to the vault overhead , in the fashion of the great catacombs of Paris" The reference to this tale should be precised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.126.64.75 (talk) 01:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Odd phrasing, clarification tag

Has this article been translated from French? I'm seeing some odd usages. I've removed the English language tags from two English websites, and I've changed inter-muros to the Latin intra muros here since I'm not aware that inter-muros is used in English. I've also tagged the first usage as needing clarification since it is not clear if it means burials within the walls of that cemetery or within the city limits. The second usage obviously refers to the entire city, but it would probably be better to eliminate this term completely since I doubt many readers will know it. There are other odd turns of phrase as well. Meters (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Deus Ex

important location in that game, sb. should add it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.161.163 (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

No, its useless Information that doesnt belong in this Article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.11.83.254 (talk) 10:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

6m a weird number

The number of bodies interned here is cited a 6m, and it's referenced against the official site (although I couldn't find it there). To me this seems like a fantastical impossible number. At the time that the catacombs were created, the population of Paris was around 600 000, and this was obviously a high point at the time - so the idea that there were 10 corpses buried for every live person seems unreal. It's the equivalent of doing the same thing in London today and reburying 75m corpses.

Does anyone else find the number questionable? I have no particular interest in the subject and no axe to grind I just found the number interesting and would like to know if anyone has some backgroud they could share on the talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.127.31.226 (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Several ways to look at this ... first, how many bodies were buried at the cemeteries which were liquidated? It is hard to find a list of the other cemeteries liquidated, but I believe they include:

• The largest, Holy Innocents' Cemetery reportedly had about 2 million buried over the course of 600 years. The trick is that after the first 200 years, the cemetery was so full that they already started disinterring bones and stacking them in elevated structures. The site is now a public square with a fountain.
• Madeleine Cemetery was 885 square meters operated for less than 100 years before it was "full". The area is now a church surrounded by a plaza and a park, in total about the same size as the site of Saints-Innocents.
• Errancis Cemetery operated for only four years, with 1119 guillotined people buried during one year of the French revolution. This appears to have been a much smaller cemetery.
• Saint-Étienne-des-Grès, Paris Cemetery, based on this image. The related church was founded as early as 857 and closed in 1790, likely the same time the bones were disinterred.

According to http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/paris-catacombs-180950160/?no-ist some remains date back 1200 years, so that predated Holy Innocents and suggests older cemeteries were cleared as well. That article also notes that at times remains went straight into the Catacombs, like during the Revolution. According to http://www.prairieghosts.com/grave_history.html the number is "3-6 million", but most places cite the 6-7 million figure. Assuming the Holy Innocents number is accurate, that's an average 3000 buried per year, but probably more in the later centuries as population grew. Lets say Madeleine had half a million over 100 years. Saint Etienne could easily have a million or more (especially if its history was similar to Holy Innocents. The Revolution cemeteries were short lived, but a lot of the people were killed during the Revolution, and often buried in mass graves.

Second, how many people could have dies in Paris over the previous 1000 years? Based on Demographics_of_Paris#Historical_population, assuming a reported life expectancy of 25 years in the 18th century, I added up the population number with interpolated number every 25 years from 1200 to 1789 and that adds up to about 8 million Parisians who would have died over those 600 years. 800 to 1200 AD was a low point in population (less than 100,000, 20,000 at one point), but probably much higher mortality, so maybe get a million there. So assuming the majority of Parisian cemeteries were consolidated into the Catacombs, the 6-7 million number is quite believable.

Finally, how many bones can we fit down there in 2km of tunnels? As a rough estimate to take advantage of the imaginative patterns used in the Catacombs, a skull is about 17 centimeters wide, or 6 skulls to a meter. That's 12,000 skull-width of tunnels. In most areas, it seems that skulls were arranged in rows at three levels (sometimes in more complex patterns) on both sides of the tunnel, so that is about 72,000 skulls directly visible. So that's far too few skulls ... though since the bone pies are about a meter deep, you could easily have row upon row of skulls going back to the wall out of sight, so perhaps half a million. Besides, skulls are fragile enough that it is likely few of them survived the centuries in good enough shape as they got moved around Paris.

But stacked along with the skulls are massive bones that could only be leg bones, conveniently arrayed in rows (I count 30 rows floor to ceiling), and roughly two for the width of each skull. That would account for the partial remains of about 720,000 being visible, with perhaps twice that if stacked behind the visible row. We are getting close to accounting for a few million bodies ... particularly if the 2km is only the publicly accessible part, and there are several more kilometers of tunnel or larger rooms. Plus, I found this tidbit at http://02dddd4.netsolhost.com/bavparis/bavparis14.shtml :

I asked the young employees at the entrance why there didn't seem to be enough skulls to match the number of large stacked bones like femurs. The answer is that small bones like fingers, vertebrae, etc. along with bones that don't stack well like ribs and pelvises are first placed against the walls and then the bones that stack well like femurs are used to contain the other bones. Skulls don't stack nicely. They are incorporated in the bone "walls" for shock value, but most are walled in by the femurs.

Marcinjeske (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Disadvantages

Uncited and highly questionable. The Paris underground exists due to excavation of building stone and shoring up where needed is a trivial engineering task. High limits in Paris are regulatory - see Haussmann's_renovation_of_Paris. 206.47.30.156 (talk) 17:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed. There are plenty of tall building in List of tallest buildings and structures in the Paris region. But anyway, if it was true, the editor could have provided a cite. Adpete (talk) 00:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Though that list provides few counter-examples. The great majority of tall buildings are at La Defense (42 of 74) northwest of Paris, far from the known tunnel networks and close to the river. Most of the rest are similar 103 or 104 meter towers built as part of two big complexes (Italie 13 and Les Olympiades) in the 13th on the edge of the River Seine, also away from the known tunnels. Many levels of uncharted tunnels, interlaced with what surely is a maze of water, utility, and transport infrastructure, is not something you can simply "excavate and shore up". The mine tunnels can be at depths of 30 meters, below layers of rock, which would be deeper and harder to excavate than many skyscrapers (say, those in New York City). This article, though not very authoritative, proposes that not only height limits but weight limits keep the city at bay. Marcinjeske (talk) 12:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I found a ref (only took a minute on Google) and restored it. It still sounds overstated, but that's what the ref says. Adpete (talk) 01:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Catacombs of Paris/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Having only a small amount of knowledge of the Parisian catacombs, this article was just enough to ignite my interest further and explore the underground secret during my next trip over.

Last edited at 02:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

In Popular Culture/As Above So Below

I think a in popular culture section should be added with tv references, etc. and also the new UniversalLegendary movie, "As Above So Below" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CE45:2660:543D:8F4F:48C7:731A (talk) 00:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

No, it does not have any place here.. if we start adding Movies, we also would need to add all the TV Shows including Hosts that visited the Catacombs.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.11.83.254 (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I have added this reference as I felt it was notable that it was the first production to receive permission from the French Government for filming on location there. Also I thought the hauling and burning of a piano and car was unusual enough to be deemed notable for "Other events." In retrospect I can see that the bit about minimal use of props after that might be redundant. Consensus? Sorry if I have done anything wrong, is my first non minor-edit. ;)

Regarding Films in general, is the reference to 1974 film "The Down-in-the-Hole Gang" relevant? I have already edited the reference to it being filmed there as the IMDB page doesn't seem to contain that information and I suspect IMDB would not be considered a good source for this. I think this leaves it in the "No place here" category that "Unsigned" above suggested. Llamageddon (talk) 14:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Catacombs/Paris

REading about the catacombs, I started wondering what happened to all the other bones that make up a skeleton, since the pictures (and what I remember from a long-ago visit) show only long leg and arm-bones, and skulls. What happened to all the little foot and hand bones, the shoulder blades, the pelvises, the ribs? Hope this is an okay question to ask. Thank you.Eelizzie (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not a forum (for such discussions), but I can say that Hericart de Thury (the successor to the first catacombs-consolidation overseer Charles-Axel Guillaumot) undertook the task of finding a more 'artistic' bone presentation (rather than the unorganised jumble of bones existing then): he prioritised the more 'sightly' skulls and straighter (thus stackable) bones for building the bone-pile facade, and that covered (the rather jumbled) everything behind. But since it was necessary to ask this question, perhaps there's place for it in the article... TP ✎ ✓ 19:22, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

As Above So Below

77.136.198.61, 77.154.225.79, 77.136.43.116, 109.13.9.61. You have been repeatedly removing referenced material from the article which states that "As Above, So Below, released in 2014, was the first production that secured permission from the French government to film in the catacombs". Other references are available:

Please explain your argument for removing this information.Greyjoy ^talk 11:51, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2018

320px Njchurchill (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:10, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 September 2018 and 6 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hannahkanter.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

talk

the paris catacombs 216.227.107.220 (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)