Talk:Celtic Orthodox Church

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What about doctrinal differences?

Copts united themselves with Protestants and Old Catholics to form this Church? What about the many doctrinal differences between each of the three doctrines? --Damián A. Fernández Beanato (talk) 22:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Response: This refers to a union from 1897. At that time the Coptic Church was not involved in any way. The Church, the subject of this article, was instituted by the Syrain Orthodox Church but without being bound by its doctrines or traditions, to establish an indigenous Western Orthodox Church. How this aspiration might have been affected by the doctrines of the Old Catholic and Protestant Churches (if known) is no longer of any relevance as the Church has continued to pursue a fully Orthodox doctrinal position. The Celtic Orthodox Church is not an Oriental Orthodox Church. When the UK branch of the Church came under the Coptic Patriarchate in 1994 it became the British Orthodox Church, and that Church's further history can be found under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Orthodox_Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Father Leonard (talk • contribs) 06:40, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Strange edits

@Orthodxinveritas: you have already tried to restore the page three times. Everytime you get reverted. From what I get from your tone, you try to WP:POV-push... some opinion I have trouble understanding. You seem to want to state the Ancient British Church, the Catholicate of the West and the Celtic Orthodox Church are the same thing, contrarily to what reliable sources state. The sources you use to make your claims are a bit dubious.
You use sources by Abba Seraphim, who is the head of the British Orthodox Church and whose books are published by the British Orthodox Church; you cannot use those sources as neither the author nor the publisher are - unless proven the contrary - reliable sources on the topic of the article, and I believe those sources are also quite biased.
An introduction to The Celtic Orthodox Church is published by the author's own publishing house, i.e. he is the self-declared "Proprietor" of Lamorna Publications as can be seen on the publisher's website. So, this source should be handled with care. Moreover, I do not know if the publisher is a RS on the topic. Veverve (talk) 11:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Orthodxinveritas: Also, Wikipedia is not a source. Please stop your POV-pushing and provide reliable sources for your claims. Veverve (talk) 10:44, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You sound irritated, dear Veverve, but I too am irritated that you seem bent on obstructing the true history of the COC. The COC's founding in 1866 is not a point of view, it is a fact, as attested by so many sources, albeit that I shouldn't have used Wikipedia articles, but surely, that they all give the same origin says something. The unreliable source is Pearson. The COC's own records of the succession down from Ferrette to Mgr Marc Scheerens is expressed in the eoc-coc reference I gave. Abba Seraphim is a renowned ecclesiastical scholar. Please stop pushing your own POV. You yourself have used the COC's own website as a source. Why do feel I should not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthodxinveritas (talk • contribs) 12:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Orthodxinveritas: I am indeed irritated that you have refused to communicate so far despite my attempts.

Wikipedia does not care about WP:TRUTH. Pearson is an university professor published by a reliable third party, while you use Abba Seraphim's self-published material about a topic which is neither Abba Seraphim nor the publisher.

I used the COC's own website for a few uncontroversial claims about themselves. None of the WP articles you mentioned mention the "Celtic Orthodox Church" as a successor of the Ancient British Church or as being founded by him; at best it is mentioned the Celtic Orthodox Church claims to be the successor of Ferrette's episcopal succession at Jules Ferrette#Apostolic succession claims.

Wikipedia is not here to promote every claim a small religious group makes about themslves. Veverve (talk) 12:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I am not refusing to talk. I count myself as knowledgeable about the Celtic Orthodox Church but am hopelessly out of my depth with Wikipedia, so don't know how to discuss. Is this the right platform? I only seem to find this page when I receive a notification from you/WP. I don't consider myself to be promoting spurious claims. The consecration of Jules Ferrette and the inception of an autocephalous was witnessed by the British Consul and the full text is given in Abba Seraphim's book, Flesh of our Brethren, the original being, I believe, in the British Library. The fact that Abba Seraphim is self published does not alter the fact that he is a highly respected ecclesiastical scholar. Both the Celtic Orthodox Church and the British Orthodox Church hold documented evidence of a consecration succession from Ferrette to Abba Seraphim, after which point the two Churches separated. Also, both Churches hold copious journals of St Tugdual. This is my frustration: we (COC and BOC) know the truth (not Pearson's) but an independent source is difficult to find. Pearson is so near right but misses several key points which have led to the current WP article on the COC being woefully incorrect. If you wish me to, when I have time, I could guide you through Pearson's account pointing out the subtle errors which have got us into this confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthodxinveritas (talk • contribs) 13:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Orthodxinveritas: If you want to learn how to use Wikipedia, I suggest you do the WP:ADVENTURE.

It does not matter whether Pearson is right or wrong, he is a WP:Reliable source and no other reliable source says otherwise, and the primary sources which say otherwise are affiliated.

I do not care about claims of churches splitting then fighting to declare themselves the True Heir of the original Founder™ or claiming an ancient foundation. Moreover, all sources say that if Ferrette created a church, this church was the Ancient British Church. Episcopal succession does not mean creation. Veverve (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Orthodxinveritas: I have added a short sentence for the claim. Veverve (talk) 09:44, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Veverve. I have further clarified the COC 'claim.'#### — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthodxinveritas (talk • contribs) 06:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]