Talk:Central American migrant caravans

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NPOV[edit]

Some of the phrasing in this needs to reflect a balanced view. "Mexican authorities felt compelled to provide protection"; "with accompaniment by human rights defenders for protection from police abuse"; "a cross-border coalition of social justice activists, community organizers, faith-based groups, and human rights advocates known as Pueblo Sin Fronteras" - it sounds like this was written by someone close to the organization. -ProhibitOnions (T) 06:21, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ProhibitOnions: I've cut a good chunk of the lead to get to NPOV in a short time. Researching and writing article ATM. How does it look now? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 03:17, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: after looking over the article, I see nothing indicating that the NPOV tag should be maintained. Thus, I have removed the tag.--SamHolt6 (talk) 05:04, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References for previous caravans[edit]

Caravans described as an “annual pilgrimage” dating back to 2010. Four citations are given, three of which are secondary sources published from late 2017 to early 2018. The only primary source, Pueblo Sin Fronteras’ website, has a list of previous caravans but the earliest entry is from 2017. Citation [6] and [8] claim caravans since 2010, but [5] says they’ve been doing it for 15 years. Please fix.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.186.235 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are a bunch of sources that mention 2010, including the Mexican authorities. I'm unsure if that is sufficient since the history of the organization is so poorly documented online, and the website is only from 2016 (previous website at that URL was a an unrelated Chicago nonprofit). I do wonder if 2010 was a reference to the founding of Pueblo Sin Fronteras (which has that date on its facebook page) or perhaps to the (unrelated) 2010 San Fernando massacre.--Pharos (talk) 21:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can't speak about the caravans because I'm not well informed about them, but I just want to clarify (per Pharos comment) that the San Fernando massacre is entirely unrelated. Those killed in San Fernando were migrants heading to the US that forcibly taken by Los Zetas. They were not in an official caravan of any sort. They were regular migrants like thousands of others who travel to the US every year, but these were sadly captured and killed. Back in the early 2010s there was a waging war between Los Zetas and the Gulf Cartel in northeastern Mexico (still ongoing, but not at the extent it was back then). Since both groups were known for employing some migrants as foot soldiers, Los Zetas didn't want to play their chances that day. Or so they say. MX (✉ • ✎) 00:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They were not organized certainly, but I do wonder if that massacre is what the Mexican authorities were referring to when they said small caravans began in 2010. It appears to me now that Pueblo Sin Fronteras has probably only organized two caravans, in Spring 2017 and Spring 2018.--Pharos (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Organizers[edit]

The article states that the migrant caravans are organized by Pueblo Sin Fronteras. While they were the ones who organized the first 2018 caravan, the talk page of the Spanish Wikipedia's article about the second 2018 caravan states that they didn't organize the second 2018 caravan. I found an article in Spanish that seems to supports this statement, in which PSF states that while they support another caravan, they do not recommend one at the moment of this writing. I think that it would be important to make the clarification then that PSF organized the first one but is not behind the second one.--EdgarCabreraFariña (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It shall be done. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:20, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is done. Thank you, User:EdgarCabreraFariña - your input proved very, very valuable! –♠Vami_IV†♠ 15:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vizualization[edit]

Dear All,
Is there an easy way to tranform this table into an illustration, e.g. a Minard map?
Thank you in advance!
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 12:56, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the source data is reliable enough to make such an illustration worthwhile. Did the caravan really more than double in size in the space of two days (Oct 19-21)? Did it then get cut in half in less than a week? At the moment it is really more a collection of timestamped estimates than a reliable timeline. MarginalCost (talk) 13:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@User:MarginalCost,
Thank you for your answer. Group dynamics can be fierce. Anyway, for every estimate, a source has been provided. To challenge the figures, offer reliable contradicting sources. I do think that crowd sizes can be estimated. :D
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 15:21, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We should wait until the situation is more or less resolved to make and acquire graphics, I feel. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 15:48, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think when this is all wrapped up, a simple line graph or bar graph would look nice and be easily understood. The problem is that the table is going to be updated probably daily or so until the situation dissipates, so someone is going to have to maintain the image and keep it up to date with the table. That's going to be a real hassle, having to regenerate the graphic, re-upload it, etc. etc. It'd probably be easier to wait for the article to reach a steady-state and then go about creating an illustration. I have no objections to creating one eventually, so long as the sourcing for the data is itself reliable. If it's good enough for the table, it's good enough for the graphic. --Jayron32 17:48, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Jayron32 and User:Vami_IV
Thank you for your replies.
Is there any tool to generate a graph of the route? As a comparison: town infoboxes use to create a map automatically from the input data. If it's a matter of actualizing a script (and uploading the output) I could do that. Once upon a time I produced a map with an GNU-R-script. That is easy to maintain even with shaky hands, but probably there exist more elaborate tools with the same philosophy.
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a beginning
@User:MarginalCost, User:Jayron32 and User:Vami_IV
I have hacked the path in R. Can anybody tell me how to lay that over a congruent map?
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 07:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
69.181.23.220 (talk) 13:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious idea, but Google maps cannot be integrated into wikipedia. Can they?
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 16:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Template:External media ? model1, model2, model3, ... 69.181.23.220 (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting hint. But I found a solution. – Ciciban (talk) 10:25, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
different colors on odd and even days? can you post the code on a "git" hoster? does that width imply population ? can you exaggerate that to make it more evident? 69.181.23.220 (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@User:69.181.23.220,
Thank you for your response.
I have made the colour change by stage (which does not allways correspond with a single day).
I have never worked with git except for sometimes adding a source to some application as a user. Feel free to transfer the code & data there. I can try to work in that environment, but I won't implement it there as a bloody beginner.
The width does in fact correspond with the crowd size. If there were different estimates, I took the median. As the crowd size was only 160 on the first stage, differences between 4000 and 5000 are not apparent (and maybe should not be).
Yours, Ciciban (talk) 10:02, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
P.s.: As you have maybe recognized allready, the code is public – Ciciban (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
https://sharemap.org/public/New_York_Streetcars_(1930)
map making ...
69.181.23.220 (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

News, Chronological, by : AP, Guardian, VOA, washington post, ny times, reuters[edit]

69.181.23.220 (talk) 12:34, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You do God's prep-work, Anon. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:16, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Separate article?[edit]

I’m surprised at how detailed the section on the ongoing caravan is, and I don’t think that level of detail would be fit for this Wikipedia page. I’m wondering if someone could make a separate article for that caravan in particular. Jnlt215 (talk) 21:53, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing work on the article will tell, as the current caravan's coverage is updated and coverage of the previous caravans is expanded. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:10, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Herding" of 2018 autumn caravaners by Mexico[edit]

At Chiapas they were made "promises" (of jobs [1]) if they did not go north, later they were offered free bus rides at Veracruz. So they went over the mountains to the Atlantic Coast. The free bus rides ([2]) were not delivered. Thus they continued to Mexico City and may hitchhike on trains to US border, but through the northern desert. The map from Coronado, Gary (23 December 2016). "Traversing the Rio Suchiate: Between Africa and the U.S., an illicit river crossing in Latin America". Los Angeles Times., implies that the tested route was north along the Pacific Coast, past Acapulco and Mazatlán. This is in the references I cited and the references in Central American migrant caravans by others.

69.181.23.220 (talk) 16:55, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

caravana migrante News from Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Mexico[edit]

69.181.23.220 (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Adding categories for Guatemala[edit]

Maybe Guatemala should also be mentioned in the categories - e.g. politics of Guatemala, Guatemala - United States relations, and so on, as this migrant crisis also affects the Central American state in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.91.212.222 (talk) 08:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re-write[edit]

The opening needs re-writing due to the recent caravan which dominates the article and yet the opening reads as if it hadn't happened yet. I'll change it shortly. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 13:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

US Asylum policy—only granted within US borders—as influence on caravans?[edit]

https://it.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulates/rome/sections-offices/dhs/uscis/refugeesasylum/

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/10/raul-labrador/no-immigrants-cannot-apply-asylum-us-embassies-or-/

usembassy.gov states asylum can only be granted within US borders. Politifact elaborates that US embassies do not count as within US borders. Should this be mentioned as a possible influence on the migrant caravans? —97.120.87.4 December 30, 2018

"Border actions" section feels incomplete[edit]

The "border actions" section, that talks about one caravan's attempted entry into the US that was rebuffed at the time, feels incomplete. Does anybody know how the rest of that played out? Did the migrants attempt to rush the border again? Did USA end up processing most of them as refugees? Did they give up and settle in Mexico? Did they return to Central America? If known, we should consider editing that information in. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CIS[edit]

I removed this that seemed suspicious and was not particularly about the caravan. Its source was also unreliable. —PaleoNeonate – 07:36, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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