Talk:Chinguetti Province

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August 2023

@StaticOasis: why did you restore the content that doesn't mention the so-called "Chinguetti Province"? Also, why did you remove the tag without addressing the issue? M.Bitton (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have some similar, more general questions. The article's title is "Chinguetti Province", but the lead defines it as a historical region including the city of Chinguetti within the Adrar Region, and apparently not to be confused with the modern Chinguetti Department. So where is the word "province" coming from? A province of what? If it's simply part of the Adrar Region and centered around Chinguetti in present-day Mauritania, why do we need this article instead of the existing ones? It's very unclear what Chinguetti Province is and therefore very unclear how much of the disputed history content ([1]) could actually be relevant here. R Prazeres (talk) 18:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@M.Bitton @R Prazeres: Chinguetti Province is a translation of إقليم شنقيط, a term used to refer to Mauritania before its colonisation. Chinguetti Province is used interchangeably with Bilad Shingit (The land of Chinguetti), as they essentialy refer to the same entity. So in light of this naming issue I believe it would more fitting to rename the article to Bilad Shingit StaticOasis (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't answer any of the questions. I will ignore your irrelevant comment and suggest you read them and try again. M.Bitton (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how "province" is a translation of that, and where in the sources are any of these terms actually defined? The page numbers for your sources in the lead, for example, would be a start, because a Google search in this one, for example, doesn't return any hits for that name. And for what it's worth, the variants of Bilad Shingit currently redirect to Greater Mauritania ([2]) (the former in-text links also led there). So yes, we still need clearer answers to my questions. R Prazeres (talk) 20:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@M.Bitton @R Prazeres: The whole issue is about the article naming translation, well it may be difficult to find sources that point to Chinguetti Province, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. the word إقليم can be translated to province or region. In either way, Chinguetti Province (Region) refers to Bilad Shingit (see [1] and [2]).

I know that Bilad Shingit redirects to Greater Mauritania, but the two concepts should be separated as the latter is modern (originated in 1958) while the former is much more ancient ([3]). StaticOasis (talk) 17:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We know exactly what "Bilad Shingit" means (land of the Shingit) and we can cite plenty of reliable sources for that. The concept of the so-called "province" is pure nonsense and this whole so-called article about it is nothing but a POV fork.

Also, why do you keep evading the issue of providing the page numbers? M.Bitton (talk) 17:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article's name is synonymous to Bilad Shingit in Arabic, I realize now it is more convinient to use the latter. The article was made to discuss Mauritania from the Almoravid (wasn't finished writing it) to the colonial period, with an aim to further expand it with sections about society and religion.

The page number is 39. StaticOasis (talk) 19:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will ignore for now the utter nonsense about the so-called province.

Please quote the exact sentence from the two sources (ref1 and ref2, citing the source and the page number for each). M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I already stated that Chinguetti Province means land of the Shingit, so I propose moving the page to Bilad Shingit.

Ref1: Le conflit du Sahara occidental p.39

Ref2: Muslim Societies in Africa: A Historical Anthropology p.301 StaticOasis (talk) 21:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't explain anything and worst of all, you keep evading the issue of the sources.

I repeat: Please quote the exact sentences from the two sources (ref1 and ref2). M.Bitton (talk) 22:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I already pointed out that the issue of the word "Province" comes from translation. Chinguetti Province=Chinguetti Region=Bilad Shingit, in Arabic. So the article simply needs to have its name changed.

Ref1: Le conflit du Sahara occidental p.39 "En 1678, il envoya une expédition dans l'Adrar et, l'année suivante, il fit une tournée d'inspection dans la région de Chinguiti, la ville sainte de l'Adrar."

Ref2: Muslim Societies in Africa: A Historical Anthropology p.301 "Finally, both the Arabic literature from the Sahara, in particular Mauritania (historically Shinqit), and the literary production in the Nile Sudan during the Mahdiyya have not been considered here." StaticOasis (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This confirms my suspicion: you misrepresented the sources again (something we already discussed before).

In this one, I asked you to explain why you attributed made-up content to sources. You blanked your talk page and then ignored it for months, before replying (making sure that I forget about it).
You also did the same in this discussion.

Needless to say that this deceitful editing pattern will no longer be tolerated. I will therefore redirect your newly made-up nonsense to Chinguetti Department. M.Bitton (talk) 16:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@R Prazeres: rather than nomination the article for deletion, I redirected it to Chinguetti Department. Please let me know what you think. M.Bitton (talk) 17:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the preferred process to follow is in this case (i.e. a new article that passed review). But in terms of my preferred solution, yes I think the current title should redirect to Chinguetti Department, that's the least confusing option.

In terms of the deleted/disputed content: if the point was to make an article about historic Mauritania, then History of Mauritania would be the logical place for that (notwithstanding that modern borders don't strictly correspond to historical-geographic regions). But since most of it was about Moroccan campaigns in the Sahel (hence the POV problem M.Bitton refers to, I assume), it should be noted that much of it is already covered at other relevant articles including Saadi Sultanate, 'Alawi dynasty, Ahmad al-Mansur, Moulay Ismail, and Saadian invasion of the Songhai Empire. So to the extent that there were any new details here, they probably belong in those specific topics. R Prazeres (talk) 17:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that particular period of Mauritanian history (from the Almoravid era until the french conquest) deserves its own article; the content should be restored and moved to a new article, preferably Bilad Shingit. Reasons being that Chinguetti Department is simply an administrative region and that Greater Mauritania is a relatively new concept that should be differentiated from Bilad Shingit and it's redirects. The Moroccan campaigns included in the article are just a part of a larger body of work, while searching information about the society and religion of the region during that period. StaticOasis (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you refused to answer a simple question about the so-called province (of what?) that you invented says everything there is to know about what you believe. M.Bitton (talk) 21:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I chose the bold approach as I couldn't see how such a pov fork could survive. I agree with the rest of what you said. M.Bitton (talk) 21:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]