Talk:Christina, Queen of Sweden/Archive 1

POV?

In the paragraph "Some disgust which she received at Rome...", especially "The French court was justly offended at this atrocious deed" (emphasis added). Isn't this flagrant POV? I'll leave it until we can find something better, but I am changing "her ancient subjects" to "her estranged subjects" for general usage. Wilhelm meis 11:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ex Site with Childhood Images

FYI - [1]. "Free" copies of these images might be worth a look! WBardwin 09:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Christina vs. Catholic Encyclopaedia

Could there be a less suitable source for Christina's biography than the Catholic Encyclopaedia?It's the very book that should have been avoided, with this particular subject. --Ghirla^-трёп- 23:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The catholic encyclopedia has always seemed pretty accurate to me. But even if we don't consider it a neutral source it would still be useful to know what the catholic perception of Christina was. Jordan toronto (talk) 21:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Picture of reception in Rome for Queen Christina

There was a picture attached to this article entitled "Celebration of Queen Christina's arrival in Rome in front of Palazzo Barberini". I corrected it to Palazzo Aldobrandini-Chigi (the home of the then-Pope Alexander VII [Chigi]). My correction somehow deleted the picture. Hope someone can replace/restore it. 4.243.164.17 15:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)Daniel F. Baedeker

A more balanced view

I wrote the article on Christina in Norwegian and Danish Wikipedia. Have incorporated it as best as I can in the English article, where I found some obvious mistakes (there were not 2 sons born before Christina, but 2 daughters), as well as no mention of Christina's devotion to peace - her first assignment as a teenage queen was to negotiate 2 major peace treaties (with Denmark and with Catholic Europe). What mattered for her was to obtain peace, not prestige, and I wonder why these treaties were not even mentioned. Only a few lines briefly described her relationship with Azzolino, a major and happy influence in the greater part of her life... I hope the article now gives a far more balanced view on her and her reign than the one I started with here. --85.19.187.20 (talk) 12:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Azzolino

I wonder whether it's worth having a bit of a discussion about Christina and Azzolino. I see that there has been some recent disagreement about whether the relationship was an 'intimate' one. From reading the Veronica Buckley biography I got the strong impression that the two were more than friends and may have been lovers - certainly he seems to have played a large role towards the end of her life.

In fact Encyclopeadia Britannica calls the relationship "strong" and states that "it was generally believed in Rome that he was her lover, a view sustained by her letters..."

I just wondered where we thought the POV issues lay - was it because we are saying that Christina was predominantly attracted to her own sex and so would not have had such a relationship with a man; or is the issue that as a catholic cardinal, Azzolino would not have had sexual relationships? Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There are POV issues on both sides of this issue, as can be seen in the edit history of this article from time to time. There are those who seek to accentuate Queen Kristina's role as a LGBT icon at the expense of slanting the portrayal of her relationships toward lesbianism, while others would dispute the sexuality of her relationship with Azzolino because he was a cardinal. As for myself, I have seen a great many rumors, accusations and innuendos (both contemporary and modern), but I have not seen any reliable source that portrays her sexuality as anything but ambiguous. Her relationship with Azzolino was close to be certain, "intimate" even, if intimate means close, but if intimate means sexual, then I would dispute that on grounds that no one has proven - and no reliable source advances - a sexual relationship between them. Sources tend to agree that the two had a relationship that was very intense, puzzling to their contemporaries, controversial to some, but overall ambiguous. Their relationship is best characterised as classic Platonic love, even if rumored to be more sensual. It should be observed that, especially during her lifetime, there were many people with many reasons to scandalize and discredit Kristina and Azzolino. All these years later, she continues to be a rather controversial character. Rather than watch another edit war ensue, I think it is best to remove wording that unnecessarily begs controversy. If "intimate" meant close, the sentence was repetitive. If "intimate" meant sexual, it needs a reliable source. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 14:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "close friendship" is tautology so don't see an issue here. In any case I'll check again what sources Buckley draws upon. But I do have concerns that we are overplaying the "ambiguity" label - either because Christina may have had a relationship with another woman or with a (supposedly celibate) clergyman. She may have enjoyed either, both or neither - I don't think any of the outcomes need be seen as scandal or an attempt to 'discredit' her. We should just leave the issues as they are and leave overs to judge them or not as they want to. She was clearly interested in sexual affairs so I would be very sceptical if the article presented the conclusion that she was asexual or indifferent! Contaldo80 (talk) 15:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction with Treatise of the Three Impostors

According to this article

She [Christina] studied Islam, and also read Les trois imposteurs, a work bestowing doubt on all organized religion.

However, according to Treatise of the Three Impostors

...it [Traité sur les trois imposteurs] is certainly from the early eighteenth century

Therefore Christina, who died at 1689, could not have possibly read it.

Top.Squark (talk) 16:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Marathon of murder?

In the section about the Monaldeschi murder, it states: "he was chased around the room for hours before they succeeded in dealing him a fatal stab." He was chased for HOURS? And in the same room? Flavius T (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no. :) It's more that they had to work on him for a long time to deal decisive stabs through some kind of tight-fitting armoured/mailed clothing, which the henchmen were unable to remove. It was a very unsavoury incident. I'll check with the deascription of that, there's a famous letter telling the story.Strausszek (talk) 23:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Terrible Writing

I was just reading this article and I found it marred by terrible, corny writing. Statements like "The Sun King did not approve of this, but Christina was not to be silenced." "There was no going back." Should be removed/made to sound a little more nuanced. -e —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.87.80 (talk) 16:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that we need a rewrite here. Wish I had time to do it now. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Childhood portrait

I did not know Wikipedia is against relatively unknown childhood paintings. At least she looks like a queen on the portrait I added and more like a hypocrite or a nun on the one you put back. If you had changed anything in the text and improved my english I could accept your authority more easily. (No, someone else did.) Now I am wondering what is your goal. The article was in a terrible state. Instead of being happy someone finally has the courage to change the unorganzied, sometimes girlish, magazinelike information, you complain. Byebye from Amsterdam. Taksen (talk) 11:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with that portrait, but she was queen for 22 years, mostly as an adult. It's great for the section on her childhood. Haven't hade time to look at your English yet and help you with that, if needed. I don't see why you only took this as criticism, question my "goal" and got so grumpy. Of course all your positive input to improve the article is appreciated by everyone, including me. I have tried to do my bit earlier. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Sparre and Ulfeldt

Leonora Christina Ulfeldt

Hello Contaldo80, the year 1652 is quiet decisive. Christina had all kind of physical problems, then she invited a french doctor. Her best friend Belle married which could have been a loss to her. She made up her mind after the visit of two Jesuits and decided if she could not belong to both the Lutheran church and catholic church, she had to abdicate,which she did in 1654.

When Christina was in Paris in 1656 she influenced the dressing style by wearing a man's hat with feathers. There is a very nice picture of Greta Garbo playing Christina wearing such a hat.[2] I tried to find a picture with Christina and her hat or a free Garbo with a hat, but did not succeed. This is why the Leonora Christina Ulfeldt picture was there.Taksen (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Taksen. I didn't mean to just dismiss the picture of Ulfeldt, I just didn't understand what it had to do with the text. What you say though is very intersting and explains the influence. Maybe you should put the photo back in somewhere but add some related text explaining the influence on dress? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

According to Christina expert Sven Stolpe those two Jesuits at best interested the Swedish queen in visiting Rome, but it is still completely unknown why she abdicated, moved to Rome and became a Roman Catholic. His most plausible theory is that she longed for freedom from the pressures of her reign and thought the Pope would support her 100% at every turn (which he ended up not doing). The fact that she was so successful at producing events of music, drama and other culture prolonged her happiness and stay in Rome, as her royal treatment there and the climate probably also did, but let's not forget that she tried to get her Swedish throne back at least once in earnest and was a willing candidate to a few other vacant thrones as well. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)